Summer is Coming--Are you kidding me?

Started Jun 19, 2012 | Discussions
libertylady
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Summer is Coming--Are you kidding me?
Jun 19, 2012

I apologize to Barb S for stepping on her topic and thought I would just post it here.

I have now gone through every photo in the Summer is Coming challenge and there is only ONE photo that does not have .5 votes (as many as 11 of them) and a lot of 1s too. Guess which one????? Oh yes, the winner, who happened to get 8 5s!! Judge for yourself. That is all I have to say.

RuthC
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Re: Summer is Coming--Are you kidding me?
In reply to libertylady, Jun 19, 2012

Suddenly this entry has disappeared, has been withdrawn! Now there's a surprise! A bit too blatant in his voting patterns, IMO.

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boar
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Re: Summer is Coming--Are you kidding me?
In reply to RuthC, Jun 19, 2012

Ok...If the winner has won by cheating this is his prize!
5 minutes of glory and a week of teasing!

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KonstantinosK
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Re: Summer is Coming--Are you kidding me?
In reply to boar, Jun 19, 2012

It's a shame really as I think the pic was nice and would have ranked high anyway (IMO). So much desperation for a win in a DPR challenge?...

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Slynky
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Re: Summer is Coming--Are you kidding me?
In reply to libertylady, Jun 19, 2012

I think if a challenge of mine had that kind of obvious cheating, I would DQ the image that was the obvioius crux of the bad voting. While some might say the entrant should not be punished for how others voted, my consideration runs toward NOT watching multiple numbers of entries get the bad end of a cheating session. Additionally, it might even be the individual with multiple IDs doing his own voting.

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Slynky
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Can't find a challenge in voting called, "Summer Is Coming"
In reply to libertylady, Jun 19, 2012

Link ?
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Slynky
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Ahhh, FINISHED. (Found it)
In reply to libertylady, Jun 19, 2012

Have added the name to my "list of IDs to be wary of".
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RaptorUK
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Re: Summer is Coming--Are you kidding me?
In reply to Slynky, Jun 19, 2012

Slynky wrote:

I think if a challenge of mine had that kind of obvious cheating, I would DQ the image that was the obvioius crux of the bad voting. While some might say the entrant should not be punished for how others voted, my consideration runs toward NOT watching multiple numbers of entries get the bad end of a cheating session. Additionally, it might even be the individual with multiple IDs doing his own voting.

I'm not clear what you are saying here . .

You seem to say that the Entrant is an obvious Cheat and then go onto say you don't know who voted . . .

So what is your evidence for calling the Entrant a Cheat ?

Once Hosts can see voters true IDs they will be able to take informed action . . . there will be no more guessing, they will be able to act on facts and evidence.

I don't see why this hasn't been changed already, it cannot be technically difficult.

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l_objectif
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Re: Summer is Coming--Are you kidding me?
In reply to libertylady, Jun 19, 2012

Just check and see how many 0.5 shots that were placed 2,3 and 4 got in Summer is coming!!!!... This is just a shame!... If this is not sandbagging, then what is it?

I am glad that despite all those 0.5 and 1 votes, they are still on top!...

I hope DPR would stop this system as soon as possible; and yes, the host must see who is voting!...
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Slynky
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Re: Summer is Coming--Are you kidding me?
In reply to RaptorUK, Jun 19, 2012

RaptorUK wrote:

Slynky wrote:

I think if a challenge of mine had that kind of obvious cheating, I would DQ the image that was the obvioius crux of the bad voting. While some might say the entrant should not be punished for how others voted, my consideration runs toward NOT watching multiple numbers of entries get the bad end of a cheating session. Additionally, it might even be the individual with multiple IDs doing his own voting.

I'm not clear what you are saying here . .

You seem to say that the Entrant is an obvious Cheat and then go onto say you don't know who voted . . .

So what is your evidence for calling the Entrant a Cheat ?

Once Hosts can see voters true IDs they will be able to take informed action . . . there will be no more guessing, they will be able to act on facts and evidence.

I don't see why this hasn't been changed already, it cannot be technically difficult.

I'll try it again, then.

I think there was cheating going on in that challenge. Either friends or family of the photo/entrant that won or multiple ID voting by the entrant himself. Obviously, I don't know which is the case.

I would disqualify the image. The only concern I would have is the following: what if friends and family did all the bad voting and the entrant had nothing to do with it (other than, for example, bring his entry to their attention). In other words, his friends and family could have made the decision to sandbag vote on their own and he had nothing to do with it yet he is being penalized.

Hopefully, you're following my point so far.

So, one of the things I considered was how DQ'ing what might be a person who had not solicited sandbag voting would be somewhat unfair to that entrant but it was MORE unfair to let it stand and cheat multiple entrants instead.

Disqualifying the image that did not receive a single .05 vote but received multiple 5.0 votes obviously doesn't negate all the .5 votes that were given to all the rest of the photos BUT by removing that one photo, the remaining photos return to a more "level playing field" (since they all received .5 votes multiple times).

Am I making any sense yet?

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RaptorUK
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Re: Summer is Coming--Are you kidding me?
In reply to Slynky, Jun 19, 2012

Slynky wrote:

RaptorUK wrote:

Slynky wrote:

I think if a challenge of mine had that kind of obvious cheating, I would DQ the image that was the obvioius crux of the bad voting. While some might say the entrant should not be punished for how others voted, my consideration runs toward NOT watching multiple numbers of entries get the bad end of a cheating session. Additionally, it might even be the individual with multiple IDs doing his own voting.

I'm not clear what you are saying here . .

You seem to say that the Entrant is an obvious Cheat and then go onto say you don't know who voted . . .

So what is your evidence for calling the Entrant a Cheat ?

Once Hosts can see voters true IDs they will be able to take informed action . . . there will be no more guessing, they will be able to act on facts and evidence.

I don't see why this hasn't been changed already, it cannot be technically difficult.

I'll try it again, then.

I think there was cheating going on in that challenge. Either friends or family of the photo/entrant that won or multiple ID voting by the entrant himself. Obviously, I don't know which is the case.

Soliciting of votes is not disallowed by DPReview (yep, still not disallowed) and it isn't disallowed by the Host in the Challenge rules. Multiple IDs are not disallowed by DPReview . . . sandbagging is also not disallowed. What one person calls sandbagging another might call tactical voting . . . other sites specifically cover this kind of voting in their rules and do not allow it.

I would disqualify the image. The only concern I would have is the following: what if friends and family did all the bad voting and the entrant had nothing to do with it (other than, for example, bring his entry to their attention). In other words, his friends and family could have made the decision to sandbag vote on their own and he had nothing to do with it yet he is being penalized.

How would you know that the bad voting is in any way connected with this particular Entrant ? and I don't mean guess, I mean know such that it is fact ?

Hopefully, you're following my point so far.

Yes.

So, one of the things I considered was how DQ'ing what might be a person who had not solicited sandbag voting would be somewhat unfair to that entrant but it was MORE unfair to let it stand and cheat multiple entrants instead.

Only if the Entrant is actually guilty of doing something against the rules . . . what is your evidence ? what could be your evidence if you had been the Host of this Challenge ?

Without knowing who actually voted you are just guessing, and taking a decision to DQ based on a guess is unfair.

I've spent almost 10 years of my working life involved directly or indirectly with competitions of some sort or another . . one thing I learnt early on is that fairness to ALL is of critical importance, not just to those that take part but to those that didn't take part . . . the fairer you can be the harder you can come down on cheats.

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libertylady
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Re: Summer is Coming--Are you kidding me?
In reply to l_objectif, Jun 20, 2012

Well as a host they cannot see who is voting what but they can see if an anonymous someone (and perhaps 8 someones) voted all .5s or 1s and 1 vote of 5. Now if those voters could be disregarded is another question and I don't think it is possible as of now but I am not sure as that has not happened in any of my challenges so far. Perhaps Dpreview will look at the voting pattern in this challenge as an example of something that needs to be tweaked. Just a thought.

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l_objectif
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Re: Summer is Coming--Are you kidding me?
In reply to libertylady, Jun 20, 2012

Problem is the voting system! It encourages cheaters to act this way! Each point should be counted and added to the total instead of this mess!
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Deleted pending purge
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Re: Summer is Coming--Are you kidding me?
In reply to l_objectif, Jun 20, 2012

l_objectif wrote:

Problem is the voting system! It encourages cheaters to act this way! Each point should be counted and added to the total instead of this mess!
--
Louis

Cheaters are not created by any encouragement, they are simply that kind of people.
Otherwise everyone would cheat without batting an eye...

Voting system is just one of the problems. There are many.
Entrant ID visibility anonymization is another one.
Automatic controls of Challenges' checkable elements missing, yet another.
Multiple ID's not being expressly forbidden is a huge problem.
Vote soliciting not being expressly forbidden, ditto.
Host introducing / host removing system (missing) is a problem.

I guess these can be solved, either one by one, or better yet, by a complete overhaul.

But DPR staff is limited in people and time, and Challenge problematics are low on the priority list.
Which is obviously the largest problem.

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l_objectif
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Re: Summer is Coming--Are you kidding me?
In reply to Deleted pending purge, Jun 20, 2012

OldArrow wrote:

Multiple ID's not being expressly forbidden is a huge problem.

I wish could control this one. I don't have any expertise in Internet issues, but how is it possible to identify multiple accounts if they open them from different PCs and have different emails?

If they could find a way for this one, they could also get rid of a bunch of trolls! They are banned, but they return with different IDs!
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RaptorUK
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Re: Summer is Coming--Are you kidding me?
In reply to l_objectif, Jun 20, 2012

l_objectif wrote:

OldArrow wrote:

Multiple ID's not being expressly forbidden is a huge problem.

I wish could control this one. I don't have any expertise in Internet issues, but how is it possible to identify multiple accounts if they open them from different PCs and have different emails?

If they could find a way for this one, they could also get rid of a bunch of trolls! They are banned, but they return with different IDs!

The first step to trying to disallow something is to make it not allowed in the forum/site/Challenge rules . . . multiple IDs are not disallowed anywhere on DPReview . . .

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Slynky
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Re: Summer is Coming--Are you kidding me?
In reply to l_objectif, Jun 20, 2012

There have been discussions about putting restrictions on ALL accounts as a way of combating multiple-ID voting. Suggestions have ranged from having to be a member for weeks or months before being allowed to enter or vote in challenges, having to have a certain amount of comments or votes before being allowed to enter challenges, etc. Having a certain amount of forum posts before being allowed to vote or enter.

But, there are some good reasons not to put those things in place.

So, it becomes a matter of damned if you do and damned if you don't.

l_objectif wrote:

OldArrow wrote:

Multiple ID's not being expressly forbidden is a huge problem.

I wish could control this one. I don't have any expertise in Internet issues, but how is it possible to identify multiple accounts if they open them from different PCs and have different emails?

If they could find a way for this one, they could also get rid of a bunch of trolls! They are banned, but they return with different IDs!
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Slynky
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Re: Summer is Coming--Are you kidding me?
In reply to RaptorUK, Jun 22, 2012

RaptorUK wrote:

Slynky wrote:

RaptorUK wrote:

Slynky wrote:

I think if a challenge of mine had that kind of obvious cheating, I would DQ the image that was the obvioius crux of the bad voting. While some might say the entrant should not be punished for how others voted, my consideration runs toward NOT watching multiple numbers of entries get the bad end of a cheating session. Additionally, it might even be the individual with multiple IDs doing his own voting.

I'm not clear what you are saying here . .

You seem to say that the Entrant is an obvious Cheat and then go onto say you don't know who voted . . .

So what is your evidence for calling the Entrant a Cheat ?

Once Hosts can see voters true IDs they will be able to take informed action . . . there will be no more guessing, they will be able to act on facts and evidence.

I don't see why this hasn't been changed already, it cannot be technically difficult.

I'll try it again, then.

I think there was cheating going on in that challenge. Either friends or family of the photo/entrant that won or multiple ID voting by the entrant himself. Obviously, I don't know which is the case.

Soliciting of votes is not disallowed by DPReview (yep, still not disallowed) and it isn't disallowed by the Host in the Challenge rules. Multiple IDs are not disallowed by DPReview . . . sandbagging is also not disallowed. What one person calls sandbagging another might call tactical voting . . . other sites specifically cover this kind of voting in their rules and do not allow it.

When I started my comments, the comments I made pertained to my challenges (with my rules). I prohibit vote soliciting and (so-called) vote sandbagging (manipulation). So, assuming the same kind of voting in one of my challenges, I would disqualify the photo with all the 5.0s (and no .5s).

Justification?

Some kind of vote manipulation has occured. Is it a fact? I can't prove it. Do I feel so within the specificaitons of my challenge guidelines? Yes. The challenge is supposed to be anonymous but voting would not seem to support such results. It looks like friends, family, and/or multiple IDs (which I address in my rules).

So, I will remove the photo that I think is the subject of favoritism, etc.

IF someone wants to complain about me, then go ahead. I'm sure it will receive the same amount of consideration all our complaining has recieved to fix things around these challenges. Untill the site finds some kind of year to install the (paraphrasing) "ability to view voting patterns and disqualify votes from this view", I will handle it by announcing it in my rules and employing my own substitutle way of handling it.

I would disqualify the image. The only concern I would have is the following: what if friends and family did all the bad voting and the entrant had nothing to do with it (other than, for example, bring his entry to their attention). In other words, his friends and family could have made the decision to sandbag vote on their own and he had nothing to do with it yet he is being penalized.

How would you know that the bad voting is in any way connected with this particular Entrant ? and I don't mean guess, I mean know such that it is fact ?

First of all, let's talk about facts. And a story.

An interviewer investigating a co-worker for the renewal of his top secret clearance asked me if I had known him to cheat on his wife. I replied I did not know for a fact. And how could I unless I had watched him? He told me he had. He bragged about cheating on his wife. But, factually, for all I know, he was making up stories to tell to make him fell like he was more of a man. I don't know for a fact the man cheated on his wife--even if he says he did.

Even in courts, jurys are expected to base a decision on a preponderance of evidence. I doubt a single juror can actually know "for a fact" a person is guilty unless they saw it happen.

So, I don't worry about "know for a fact". Even the "facts" I read online (and in books) are really not facts, now are they? I don't know "for a fact" that Hitler ever had Jews killed, now do I? All I have is what other people have written down. And even some people say it never happened.

I know for a fact that I'm typing this.

So, to answer the first part, I'm just coming to a conclusion based on evidence that shows too much of a pattern to have happened randomly with no colusion or vote manipulation.

So, with my rules and guidelines specified and nothing happening from DPR, I'll do the best I can with the limited tools I have to stop that kind of voting (or nullify it the best I can).

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