Canon G1X Vs Sony RX100

Started Jun 14, 2012 | Discussions
jonrobertp
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DR shown on Chip.online ..German site
In reply to MikeNeufeld30, Jun 15, 2012

Some #'s

G1X--DR @ iso 400 800 1600
9.3 8.7 9.7

RX100--DR@ 400 800 1600
8.7 9.0 8.7

AF speed
G. zoomed out....--.67
R. --.54 sec.

kinda interesting.

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SHood
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Re: Canon G1X Vs Sony RX100
In reply to Dimitri Khoz, Jun 15, 2012

Other than what others already mentioned. You commented out a key part of my quote.

"Now with the RX100 we have an option that sits somewhere between the S100 and G1X from a sensor perspective but with the faster lens almost equals the G1X in low light."

So I was referring to RAW and based on our knowledge of Sony sensors and the size difference with the G1x sensor, the 1 stop difference is what we can expect from the sensors with the lens making up most of the difference.

Secondly you keep referring to 100% crops, but the noise becomes less if you normalize down to the G1X 14mp or the s100 10mp. This is what you need to compare when RAW support becomes available. This is where we will see the 1 stop difference.

Dimitri Khoz wrote:

SHood wrote:

Now with the RX100 ... with the faster lens almost equals the G1X in low light.
Many who were considering the G1X before may choose the RX100 now.

Absolute NONSENCE .

Even after adjustment for a brighter lens,
IQ difference between the cameras is >   2 FULL STOPS ,
if you know what it means.

And RX100 images at ISO1600+ are beyound usable.

Also, do not forget
that RX100 is prone to purple fringing

ISO1600 100% crop from original

Plus RX100 does not have ND filter ,

so quite often
one will be stuck with High ISO during daytime shooting or
one will be unable to get bokeh/bloored background wideopen.

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SHood
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Re: DR shown on Chip.online ..German site
In reply to jonrobertp, Jun 15, 2012

I guess those DR numbers are from JPEG. Also how is DR increasing with ISO? Those numbers don't look very reliable.

jonrobertp wrote:

Some #'s

G1X--DR @ iso 400 800 1600
9.3 8.7 9.7

RX100--DR@ 400 800 1600
8.7 9.0 8.7

AF speed
G. zoomed out....--.67
R. --.54 sec.

kinda interesting.
--

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jonrobertp
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Re: DR shown on Chip.online ..German site
In reply to SHood, Jun 15, 2012

Chip also reports...
resolution...G. @ 1600 iso-- 1.378
resolution...R. @ 1600 iso-- 1.439

Interesting that the R-sony--still has more res. than the G-canon. Not that I'm surprised.

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snapshot09
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Sony RX100 = S100 on Steroids
In reply to jonrobertp, Jun 15, 2012

We all know by now the raves the S95 received, the S100 some better and some worse, the new leader on town is the RX100. And for those tired of the lens error and it has to fit in your pocket... No need to say more.

jonrobertp wrote:

"performance/size ratio"...well stated. That is a huge deal here, and crucial to making purchase decisions. Or as some would have it, one of each.

GeraldW wrote:

Marco,

As usual, a thoughtful post.

Just a couple of comments of my own. First, the only reason I would be considering the RX100 is because of its performance/size ratio. I really do need a pocketable camera that has good low light performance. Currently, it's an S90. The G12 or G1X doesn't enter into the picture as they are just too big and heavy. They might be in consideration for some other role, but not this one. Likewise, the RX100 might be in consideration against the G1X in a different rolle, where it's size is not a benefit.

Second, your post shows the block lettering from a beer bottle. At low ISO, the RX100 and G1X both clearly show the horizontal lines within the letters. The first compact camera to show those horizontal lines was the Canon SX950IS, which used the same 12 MP sensor as the G9. It's quite interesting to see which cameras can reveal those lines, and which cannot; and further, which can still reveal those lines at ISO 400 or 800, or higher. So far, the only 10 MP camera which can reveal them is the old G7, and then, just barely. The G9 and G10 do; but the G11 and G12 do not. The point here, is that the larger sensor, 20 MP Sony RX100 does reveal those lines at ISO 125, but not so well at higher ISO. You'd have to go back to the I-R site to see how ISO 400 and 800 look.
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Dimitri Khoz
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Re: Canon G1X Vs Sony RX100
In reply to SHood, Jun 15, 2012

SHood wrote:

So I was referring to RAW and based on our knowledge of Sony sensors and the size difference with the G1x sensor, the 1 stop difference is what we can expect from the sensors with the lens making up most of the difference.

Please do not get me wrong.

I trully believe that RX100 is a groundbreaking camera
that will raise the bar for all ultra-compact cameras in its class,
same as Sony NEX5 did for mirrorless.

However,
I also believe that it is absolutely wrong to compare RX100 to G1X
because they belong to completely different IQ class.
It is the same as if we start comparing RX100 to APS-C DSLRs.

Yes, Sony 1' sensor has 2.3 times less area comparing to the sensor in G1X.
Also, Sony has 1.5 times more pixels in it,

which results in 2.3*1.5 = 3.3 times less light coming to each individual photosite.

2 times less light is 1 stop, 3.3 times equals 5/3 of the stop,
which results in almost 2 full stop difference between R100 and G1X.
Please correct me if my math is wrong.

Another point is
that for some strange reason

Sony decided not to use superior backlit "Exmor R" CMOS found in the latest cameras of the brand.

It decided to employ 2009 old-school "Exmor" overgrown to 1' instead.

End result is that Sony sensor itself looses at least 2 stops to Canon,

the rest is lost by RX100 lens coupled with BIONZ imaging processor
which is clearly sub-par to DIGIC5.

Total loss, confirmed by results of analyzing real world shots,
is about 3 full light stops
partially compensated by 1 stop brighter lens.

Secondly you keep referring to 100% crops, but the noise becomes less if you normalize down to the G1X 14mp or the s100 10mp. This is what you need to compare when RAW support becomes available. This is where we will see the 1 stop difference.

Noise does not become visible by downsampling.
Noise artefacts do.

However, because of the different aspect ratio
resolution gain comparing to G1X is only 10% in height
which will not help much decreasing noise.

RX100 is a S100 killer, no doubt,
unless someone really likes 24mm wideangle.

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Dimitri Khoz
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Re: Canon G1X Vs Sony RX100
In reply to Dimitri Khoz, Jun 15, 2012

Typo correction:

Noise does not become less visible by downsampling.
Noise artefacts do.

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Dimitri Khoz
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Re: DR shown on Chip.online ..German site
In reply to jonrobertp, Jun 15, 2012

jonrobertp wrote:

Chip also reports...
resolution...G. @ 1600 iso-- 1.378
resolution...R. @ 1600 iso-- 1.439

Interesting that the R-sony--still has more res. than the G-canon. Not that I'm surprised.
--

Read more Chip.de, noone takes them seriously.

Due to the great lens,
G1X has higher resolution than NEX5+
2600 lines vs 2400 lines in RAW ISO1600
http://bbs.kakaku.com/bbs/K0000151476/SortID=14034157/ImageID=1102025/
http://bbs.kakaku.com/bbs/K0000151476/SortID=14034157/ImageID=1102028/

Recently I made some ISO3200 shots with my G1X
so here is comparison with RX100:
G1X ISO3200

RX100 ISO3200

Which one has more details?

However, I do believe
RX100 will easily outresolve Canon S100 in all ISO settings.

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Dimitri Khoz
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Re: DR shown on Chip.online ..German site
In reply to Dimitri Khoz, Jun 15, 2012

Whoever wants to see great pictures
Sony RX100 can do,

please visit this Japanese website,
it has all Sony RX100 promo samples,
and they look very promising for the camera of this size.

http://www.biccamera.com/bicbic/jsp/w/d_camera/new/sony/index4.jsp

This is as much as professionals will be able to get from this camera:

ISO 3200 f2.2 1/40sec

It is downsampled to 1500x1125
and I believe no other ultra-slim camera on the market
has similar ISO3200 performance.

ImagingResource claims
that RX100 ISO3200 images will look good printed 13x19.
I do not believe that this promo sample will look decent
when printed that big,
but for 4X6 it should be good enough.

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NowHearThis
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Re: Canon G1X Vs Sony RX100
In reply to Marco Nero, Jun 15, 2012

Marco Nero wrote:

Come on, you knew someone was going to do this thread. The RX100 was as much a stab at the G1X as it was at the s100. Does it take a better picture than the s100? Yes, surprisingly.... it does. But how does it compare to the G1X?

not sure why you are asking a rhetorical question. The G1X is just so big, blocky, and cumbersome for a "compact"... oh you're asking the other rhetorical question.... At low ISOs, the extra resolution will undoubtedly capture more detail, at high ISOs the G1X should pull ahead in terms of IQ. I look forward to this site's review and RAW tests, in the meantime IR's print test shows this:

Everyone's bouncing around, trying to compare the recently announced Sony RX100 with the Canon s100 and there's good reason for this: It's simply a ripoff of the innovative s-Series cameras. But don't take my word for it, the author of a similar comparison (who also happens to own an s95) couldn't help but notice the similarities himself. He tries to dismiss them but ultimately confirms what we already know: it's a Canon clone. Shame on Sony! They took quite a lot from the Canon s-Series, and they've managed to even clone the button placements and dial locations, not to mention the programmable lens ring...

meh, it's good design, why not use it. Admittedly the front ring does make it obvious what they're copying. Don't be so suprised by this, companies copy each other. Look at the T4i, it finally adds AF to video, HDR, HHT, Stereo Mics, faster continous shooting....it's copying Sony's Axx series in an attempt to steal market share back from Sony. Long and short, copying happens.

But something else that came from the article/comparison/review is that the Sony RX100 was compared with a variety of other cameras, including the Canon G1X. And the G1X came out ahead due to less noise, better image clarity and detail captured, especially at higher ISOs. I don't doubt that the other manufacturers are trying to come up with something to exceed the G1X and it will eventually happen.

It has, they're called the NEX-7, NEX-5n, OMD-EM5, Canon 550D and higher, Nikon D5xxx and higher, Pentax K30, K5, Sony A5x and higher, and Panasonic GH2 (although not at high ISOs). Still, the G1X is a fine camera and suitable for many.

Already, the members of other forums here and elsewhere are already asking what features people would like to see on an RX200 (amusing since the RX100 isn't yet in the hands of the public!).

Where have you been? This happens to every single DSLR/ILC, and every half decent compact camera. This is not exclusive to the RX100.

The G1X came out well ahead with less noise (top) and more detail captured (bottom).

Actually quoting IR, the G1X "does a little better than the Sony RX100". A much larger sensor with fewer pixels only doing a 'little better'. hmmm.

It is interesting to compare the RX100 to the G1X because they both use larger sensor and that means they both have larger lens assemblies. The RX100 is nowhere near as small as an s-Series camera but it's close.

Bias and ridiculous. The RX100 is nearly as small as the S100.

Heck of a lot closer to the S100 than the G1X. The difference is only 8mm in thicknness. Geez.

The G1X outperformed all the other cameras in this test... including the Sony NEX.

Time for a re-read.
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/G1X/G1XA.HTM

"Fine detail on the G1 X looks quite good, though it's bested by the T3i and NEX-5N, an outcome we'd expect. As ISO rises, contrast and saturation tend to decrease in the G1 X, while it stays stronger in the T3i, E-P3, and NEX-5N....At ISO 6,400, though the contrast is faded, the G1 X actually does the best at maintaining the lines inside the letters, while they're more of a blur in the T3i and NEX-5N images." Apparently those letters are the only area it beats the NEX-5n and T3i, it's bested everywhere else.

No camera is perfect. At least in the sense that there's no such thing as a camera that can do everything. I don't like it when a camera company (or any other manufacturer for that matter) pinches the ideas of another simply because they know it will sell. There's always people who don't care and will happily purchase the cheaper alternative but I don't think that replication is the answer.

But the RX100 is more expensive than the ZX-1 and S100 which it borrows it's design from.

The Sony RX 100 compared very closely with the s100 but appeared to capture sharper detail at higher ISO settings. It didn't really come close to the G1X though and I would have been surprised if it did.

The RX100 was not meant to be the king of low-light, just the current king of highest IQ at reasonable ISOs combined wth the smallest form factor. I'll happily grant the G1X superiority in higher ISOs, but it's just too big to carry everywhere. the RX100 is what the S100 should have been.

It's main benefit will be that the Sony should have a faster focus-lock time.

and better video and it's much smaller (pocketable).

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jimr
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Add The Samsung TL500/EX-1 ...Etc....Side Hinge All This ADDS Thickness....
In reply to rolleiman, Jun 15, 2012

rolleiman wrote:

My Sony A33 has a flip screen - hinged at the bottom - that clearly infringes patent # [US] 5719645 and Panny has used side hinged flippers for a long time.

Personally, I much prefer the bottom hinge setup and never did get used to the off the side thing, but it doesn't seem to be that the patent licence is a big restricting factor.

Considering the close relationships that exist amongst these companies it's perhaps not best to assume that they're restricting each other's competitiveness. What sounds like cats fighting can often result in a litter of new cats.

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jimr
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This Maximum Shutter Speed Complaint and Overexposure
In reply to jimr, Jun 15, 2012

So all of you that own the S95 and S100 you must have bright light overexposure issues since 1/2,000 second is your fastest shutter speed as well.

Oly XZ-1 owners...You too ..maximum shutter speed 1/2,000 second.

Samsung TL500/EX-1 You must have a huge problem with only a 1/1,500 second maximum shutter speed.

Etc......

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SHood
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Re: Canon G1X Vs Sony RX100
In reply to Dimitri Khoz, Jun 15, 2012

Take a look at DXOMark and compare the G1X with the Nikon 1 sensor. Here we have a Sony 1" sensor that should have similar results to the RX100 when downscaled. You'll see there is only a 2/3 stop difference at high ISO with similar differences with tonal range and color. DR at low ISO is less dependant on sensor size.

The G1X is a very good JPEG engine but at the RAW the difference is easily made up by the lens.

Dimitri Khoz wrote:

SHood wrote:

So I was referring to RAW and based on our knowledge of Sony sensors and the size difference with the G1x sensor, the 1 stop difference is what we can expect from the sensors with the lens making up most of the difference.

Please do not get me wrong.

I trully believe that RX100 is a groundbreaking camera
that will raise the bar for all ultra-compact cameras in its class,
same as Sony NEX5 did for mirrorless.

However,
I also believe that it is absolutely wrong to compare RX100 to G1X
because they belong to completely different IQ class.
It is the same as if we start comparing RX100 to APS-C DSLRs.

Yes, Sony 1' sensor has 2.3 times less area comparing to the sensor in G1X.
Also, Sony has 1.5 times more pixels in it,

which results in 2.3*1.5 = 3.3 times less light coming to each individual photosite.

2 times less light is 1 stop, 3.3 times equals 5/3 of the stop,
which results in almost 2 full stop difference between R100 and G1X.
Please correct me if my math is wrong.

Another point is
that for some strange reason

Sony decided not to use superior backlit "Exmor R" CMOS found in the latest cameras of the brand.

It decided to employ 2009 old-school "Exmor" overgrown to 1' instead.

End result is that Sony sensor itself looses at least 2 stops to Canon,

the rest is lost by RX100 lens coupled with BIONZ imaging processor
which is clearly sub-par to DIGIC5.

Total loss, confirmed by results of analyzing real world shots,
is about 3 full light stops
partially compensated by 1 stop brighter lens.

Secondly you keep referring to 100% crops, but the noise becomes less if you normalize down to the G1X 14mp or the s100 10mp. This is what you need to compare when RAW support becomes available. This is where we will see the 1 stop difference.

Noise does not become visible by downsampling.
Noise artefacts do.

However, because of the different aspect ratio
resolution gain comparing to G1X is only 10% in height
which will not help much decreasing noise.

RX100 is a S100 killer, no doubt,
unless someone really likes 24mm wideangle.

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AngryCorgi
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Back-illuminated CMOS rant
In reply to SHood, Jun 15, 2012

The S100 houses the LARGEST back-illuminated CMOS and there are NO back-illuminated CMOS sensors of 1" or larger. It has been explained repeatedly by Sony and other companies that the benefit back-illumination shrinks as photosite grows. In larger sensors (APS-C and up) it can actually have a negative effect.

Sony isn't using back-illumination and Aptina is not using back-illumination in 1" sensors because it doesn't make sense. There's practically no benefit.

Also, the "2009 Exmor technology" is ridiculous. The G1X sensor is based on the 600D sensor. The "old Exmor technology" sensors from Sony fair better in DR than the 600D's sensor, as shown all over the internet. In reality, the Exmor design has evolved and the 1" sensor in the RX100 is part of that evolution. They didn't dig up a 3-year old design and decide to implement it. They designed it based on lessons learned with all their other Exmor successes/failures.

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keeponkeepingon
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Re: This Maximum Shutter Speed Complaint and Overexposure
In reply to jimr, Jun 15, 2012

jimr wrote:

So all of you that own the S95 and S100 you must have bright light overexposure issues since 1/2,000 second is your fastest shutter speed as well.

Oly XZ-1 owners...You too ..maximum shutter speed 1/2,000 second.

Samsung TL500/EX-1 You must have a huge problem with only a 1/1,500 second maximum shutter speed.

Etc......

I thought his point was you could not operate the camera "wide open" you had to stop it down to compensate for the relatively slow max shutter speed.

But whatever, I can't believe how wrapped around an axle y'all get about stuff like this.

To allow large apertures in bright light or longer exposures in bright light the S100 has an ND filter.

Does the RX100 have a built in ND filter or can one be added to the camera? Google is coming up with zip other than folks like me asking "does the RX100 have an ND filter".

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SHood
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Re: Back-illuminated CMOS rant
In reply to AngryCorgi, Jun 15, 2012

The s100 sensor is not back illuminated either. Only the 1/2.3" sensors are back illuminated.

AngryCorgi wrote:

The S100 houses the LARGEST back-illuminated CMOS and there are NO back-illuminated CMOS sensors of 1" or larger. It has been explained repeatedly by Sony and other companies that the benefit back-illumination shrinks as photosite grows. In larger sensors (APS-C and up) it can actually have a negative effect.

Sony isn't using back-illumination and Aptina is not using back-illumination in 1" sensors because it doesn't make sense. There's practically no benefit.

Also, the "2009 Exmor technology" is ridiculous. The G1X sensor is based on the 600D sensor. The "old Exmor technology" sensors from Sony fair better in DR than the 600D's sensor, as shown all over the internet. In reality, the Exmor design has evolved and the 1" sensor in the RX100 is part of that evolution. They didn't dig up a 3-year old design and decide to implement it. They designed it based on lessons learned with all their other Exmor successes/failures.

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Dimitri Khoz
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Re: Canon G1X Vs Sony RX100
In reply to NowHearThis, Jun 15, 2012

NowHearThis wrote:

Marco Nero wrote:

Come on, you knew someone was going to do this thread. The RX100 was as much a stab at the G1X as it was at the s100. Does it take a better picture than the s100? Yes, surprisingly.... it does. But how does it compare to the G1X?

...in the meantime IR's print test shows this:

Ok, NowHearThis ,
now please print this official ISO3200 RX100 promo picture 13X19

Do you really think it will look good?

Now, it was Sony in-house marketing shot.
Let's try a REAL WORLD one.

Here is another ISO3200 RX100 shot done by one of the
camera reviewers

Who do you think it will look like if you print it at 13x19?
I wouldn't print it even at 4x6.

Do not believe artificial test-charts,
believe your own eyes.

Actually quoting IR, the G1X "does a little better than the Sony RX100". A much larger sensor with fewer pixels only doing a 'little better'. hmmm.

I would not call it a 'little better'.
It is almost 3 stops better as confirmed by pictures I posted earlier.

G1X ISO3200

ISO400 RX100 100% crop

ISO3200 G1X 100%crop

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Dimitri Khoz
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Re: Canon G1X Vs Sony RX100
In reply to Dimitri Khoz, Jun 15, 2012

Typo correction:

How do you think it will look like if you print it at 13x19?

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Dimitri Khoz
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Re: Canon G1X Vs Sony RX100
In reply to SHood, Jun 15, 2012

SHood wrote:

Take a look at DXOMark and compare the G1X with the Nikon 1 sensor...

You'll see there is only a 2/3 stop difference at high ISO with similar differences with tonal range and color. DR at low ISO is less dependant on sensor size.

You are completely right about Nikon, SHood .

Let's do some math together.

Nikon 1 has 262/116 = 2.3 times less area than sensor in G1X.
However, Nikon 1 has 1.4 time less pixels

which tesults in 2.3/1.4 = 1.7 times less light coming to each individual photosite.

2 times difference is 1 light stop.
1.7 times difference is 2/3 of the stop .

DXO confirmed it as well that Nikon 1 will lose to G1X
2/3 of the light stop if we put the same lens on both cameras.

Here we have a Sony 1" sensor that should have similar results...

Here is where you lost it a bit.

If we do the same math for Sony RX100 as I did previously,
you will see that RX100 will lose 5/3 of the stop to G1X.

The rest will be lost by BIONZ processor and
good but not perfect sharpness of Sony's glass
all the way to 3 stops in JPEGs.
It will be corrected by 1 stop because of the brighter lens on RX100.

P.S.>
If we do similar comparison to S100
then you will see that Sony RX100 sensor
will get 1.7 times more light for each individual photosite
which is 2/3 of the stop advantage.
Plus RX100 has 1/3 stop advantage on average because of the faster lens
(28 mm has 2/3 diff, 35mm is the same, long end has 1/3 diff)

It results in 1 full stop advantage of RX100 over S100.

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SHood
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Re: Canon G1X Vs Sony RX100
In reply to Dimitri Khoz, Jun 15, 2012

The number of pixels in the sensor has nothing to do with the number of stop difference. The graphs you see by default at dxomark are actually based on scaling to 8mp for all sensors. If you compare at dxomark the per pixel results of the G1X to the per pixel results of the Nikon 1 by choosing 'screen' instead of 'print' then the noise result is exactly the same. What that means is that in RAW at 100% the Nikon 1 sensor gives comparable noise to the G1X at 100%.

So the per pixel result of the 20mp RX100 will be worse than 2/3 stop difference but once dormalized to a given MP that is the same as the G1X then the difference will still be 2/3 stop.

Hope that makes sense.

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