How to avoid low vote sandbagging?

Started Jun 4, 2012 | Discussions
l_objectif
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How to avoid low vote sandbagging?
Jun 4, 2012

I think the system we have now makes it easy for the dishonest participants to sandbag their opponents by giving them low votes with 0.5 or 1 point.

In my view we should have a system in which the votes are added , so, the person who gets more votes, wins!

I am sure they will find other ways to screw a challenge, but this is the first real step to stop this kind of sandbagging!

What do you think?

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CG33
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Re: How to avoid low vote sandbagging?
In reply to l_objectif, Jun 4, 2012

It works the same way for cheaters. That is what they have been doing from day one; getting some friends or opening new accounts to get many high scores. It is a real advantage If from 10 votes a person gets five 5.0s (from friends, etc.). Don't you think?

I guess that the only way to determine that a very low (0.5) or very high (5.0) vote is genuine, is showing the name of the person who gave it. In such cases an explanation would also help.

With this capability the host will be able to understand the voter's reasons or detect any wrong doing.

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l_objectif
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Re: How to avoid low vote sandbagging?
In reply to CG33, Jun 4, 2012

After years, I just discovered not long ago that 0.5 is not adding to the total. I always thought 0.5 was better than no vote at all!... I am sure I am not alone and many still think that way!

The most logical way is to add the votes as we are doing in Leica forum challenges. The only thing I would change from Leica challenge voting system is keeping the entries anonymous!
As for people having multiple IDs, this is a problem that DPR should deal with!

We can never, in any system, avoid friends voting for friends. They can always ask friends to vote for them.

But we can start making some simple changes to make it as fair as possible as I mentioned in my post!

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Serenoa
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Re: How to avoid low vote sandbagging?
In reply to l_objectif, Jun 4, 2012

What actually happens with a 0.5 vote? What are you referring to when you say it does not get added in to the score?

I have tried several times to understand the voting compilation and still am not sure of the final outcome of giving a 0.5 vote versus no vote at all.

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l_objectif
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Re: How to avoid low vote sandbagging?
In reply to Serenoa, Jun 4, 2012

That is exactly the problem I had for years!

From my understanding, instead of adding like, for instance: 0.5+ 5 + 4 = 9.5

It goes 9.5 divided by 3 (the number of votes) = 3.16…

At least this is how understand the system!

So, to beat their opponents with low score, some cheaters give them 0.5 or 1, etc… which lower the score and like the case above, instead of 9.5, he/she gets 3.16!

If I am still wrong; please someone, correct me!

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Serenoa
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Re: How to avoid low vote sandbagging?
In reply to l_objectif, Jun 4, 2012

Okay, I see what you are saying, and that is how I understood it to work. The 0.5 does get added into the total score, but it also adds in another divisor, so 9.5 is divided by 3 giving 3.16 score.

Whereas, if no 0.5 vote was given, it would by 4+5=9 and then divided by 2, giving a score of 4.5 instead.

So a 0.5 score dilutes the average on a total vote.

Personally, I have started voting only for the photos I like with a 2.5 or higher and do not vote on the others.

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l_objectif
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Re: How to avoid low vote sandbagging?
In reply to Serenoa, Jun 4, 2012

I personally believe that the total of all votes shout count!

Just imagine the mess if the presidential election had the same voting system as DPR!

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Slynky
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Re: How to avoid low vote sandbagging?
In reply to Serenoa, Jun 4, 2012

This has been discussed before.

I think the general consensus is that there is more to it than that. In other words, there is a formula that--some speculate--that determines a weight on the number of a certain vote in some sort of relationship with the number of votes cast. This determination was made because if you go find (for example) an image with 10 votes on it, add them all up and divide it by 10, you are likely NOT to ccome up with the same value the photo scored. It will usually be a bit different.

Some speculate it does some kind of factoring similar to this:

IF a photo receives ONE 5.0 and NINE 2.5 votes, I think the 5.0 vote is somehow given less consideration than its full 5 stars. The assumption that most people thought it was an average photo so the single 5.0 must be an abberation.

No one knows for sure but that's how the general consensus is--that there is more to the formula than adding all the votes and dividing by the number of votes.
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Slynky
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Re: How to avoid low vote sandbagging?
In reply to l_objectif, Jun 4, 2012

There are a few LONG threads in here suggesting other approaches to scoring.

There is no clear and obvious method that has been agreed upon. Each has some merits others don't.

If you have some time, you can look them up and read...

l_objectif wrote:

I personally believe that the total of all votes shout count!

Just imagine the mess if the presidential election had the same voting system as DPR!

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A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to their country for an amount of "up to and including my life".

(...from the generation that still uses capital letters and punctuation...)

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l_objectif
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Re: How to avoid low vote sandbagging?
In reply to Slynky, Jun 4, 2012

Slynky wrote:

There are a few LONG threads in here suggesting other approaches to scoring.

I know; I have read them all already! But as a few people are mentioning sandbagging again, I just wanted to give my opinion because I believe that recently, I have also been a victim of that!

Anyway, I strongly believe that the grand-total works better than the average !

If we use the “Total” system, people cannot sandbag with low points. Contrary to some, I also believe that participants of a challenge should NOT be allowed to vote in that challenge! I know; this has been Longley discussed, also!

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Deleted pending purge
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Re: How to avoid low vote sandbagging?
In reply to l_objectif, Jun 4, 2012

DPR has already gathered all of the hosts' requests and suggestions. Once implemented, the hosts are going to see the ID's of malicious voters, and will be abe to annul these. If some of those suggestions result in more flexibility, then those voters (other kinds of cheaters as well) will find themselves severely limited from the challenges altogether, which may be a valuable lesson to them.

Your suggestion would be effective if voting on all entries in a challenge is mandatory. As it isn't, the Bayesian system modified with aforesaid suggestions for changes might work as intended.

As to the presidential election system etc. ... all that would really be effective is illegal.
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Joe Pineapples
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Re: How to avoid low vote sandbagging?
In reply to l_objectif, Jun 5, 2012

l_objectif wrote:

That is exactly the problem I had for years!

From my understanding, instead of adding like, for instance: 0.5+ 5 + 4 = 9.5

It goes 9.5 divided by 3 (the number of votes) = 3.16…

At least this is how understand the system!

So, to beat their opponents with low score, some cheaters give them 0.5 or 1, etc… which lower the score and like the case above, instead of 9.5, he/she gets 3.16!

If I am still wrong; please someone, correct me!

Something like that, but they use a "Bayesian" system which uses a slightly more complicated formula to weight the votes to equalize to some extent for different numbers of votes per entry and things like that. If you Google "Bayesian rating" or similar you get lots of hits.

One idea I like is weighting a person's votes according to their "karma", i.e. someone who participates a lot, doesn't attract complaints, and votes fairly in plenty of challenges gets a high karma rating, and their votes are weighted more than someone who breezes in off Facebook to vote in one challenge, or who has been banned 10 times and always votes 0.5 on the top 10 entries etc.

Joe

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l_objectif
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Re: How to avoid low vote sandbagging?
In reply to Joe Pineapples, Jun 5, 2012

I totally agree concerning the social media DPR challenges! This is very unfair for those who are not involved in any social media, like myself and many others!

As for voting 0.5; I really hate this system! Ever since I know how to check the votes, I am amazed to see all those 0.5 or 1 point votes to excellent shots that could win instead of being 11th and so. I just can't understand how a shot that gets 4 or 5 stars also gets 0.5!!!... I know that tastes are differentand everyone cannot appreciate the same shot; but often it looks so suspecious!...

I really beleive the system we have is bad!
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Re: How to avoid low vote sandbagging?
In reply to l_objectif, Jun 5, 2012

It's not the system that's bad; it's the people who'll do their damnedest to go around it. And those you can find in every system.

It is simply the trend which has ruined every feeling of honesty, moral and ethical behavior. The world seems to favor winners, and fair play is a thing of the past. Throughout the social scale and regardless of the activity (art inclusive), being the first has been declared more important than anything else. So, the useless thieves of other people's accomplishments are found even where the only prize is five minutes of virtual "glory".

The very stupidity of that trend isn't even questioned any longer. This proves it's been planned thus , and is not happening by itself.
But that is one much wider theme. Not much sense elaborating it here.
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Slynky
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Re: How to avoid low vote sandbagging?
In reply to Deleted pending purge, Jun 6, 2012

Yes, winning is more important than anything!

(this, in part, from Yahoo News)

"A 33-year-old Pennsylvania man was arrested and charged with two counts of assault after he allegedly beat up a 9-year-old boy who bested him in a water balloon fight.

There seems to be no shortage of embarrassing details for Joe Mongeon, who witnesses say instigated the water balloon fight with the child. However, the The Times-Tribune of Scranton reports Mongeon became "enraged" after the young boy successfully targeted Mongeon with a water balloon of his own.

That's when witnesses say Mongeon pushed the child to the ground and began kicking him. When the boy's mother, Helen Flynn, attempted to intervene, Mongeon allegedly punched her in the face.

Thankfully, both mother and son seem to be OK. Both refused medical attention after Mongeon was arrested. Police later charged Mongeon with harassment, along with the counts of simple assault. He was released on Monday after posting a $5,000 bail."

OldArrow wrote:

It's not the system that's bad; it's the people who'll do their damnedest to go around it. And those you can find in every system.

It is simply the trend which has ruined every feeling of honesty, moral and ethical behavior. The world seems to favor winners, and fair play is a thing of the past. Throughout the social scale and regardless of the activity (art inclusive), being the first has been declared more important than anything else. So, the useless thieves of other people's accomplishments are found even where the only prize is five minutes of virtual "glory".

The very stupidity of that trend isn't even questioned any longer. This proves it's been planned thus , and is not happening by itself.
But that is one much wider theme. Not much sense elaborating it here.
--
Fil

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A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to their country for an amount of "up to and including my life".

(...from the generation that still uses capital letters and punctuation...)

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Re: How to avoid low vote sandbagging?
In reply to Slynky, Jun 6, 2012

Exactly. This is the sort of people which need 142 attempts to fill 100 challenge slots in the correct manner.
I'm thinking about a Challenge titled READ THE * RULES...

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Re: How to avoid low vote sandbagging?
In reply to Deleted pending purge, Jun 6, 2012

The "voter" coded 9ED96C56 awarded 39 .5-stars, 36 1-stars and 11 1.5-stars in the High Quality Photography challenge (now in the last hours of its voting phase).

I can understand that everyone has different views on what the high quality might be. That's the very reason for this Challenge. Nevertheless, such voting obviously comes from someone quite outa-Galaxy-superior to 86 out of 98 entrants.

It would be funny, if it weren't pathetic. Entrants were invited to do their best!

Luckily, so far 2719 votes have been cast on those 98 entries. Looks like voters have been challenged by the challenge title, and I guess this draconic attempt at quality judgement will be watered-down sufficiently to show what the majority feels...
See for yourself: http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Challenge.aspx?ID=6864

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l_objectif
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Re: How to avoid low vote sandbagging?
In reply to Deleted pending purge, Jun 6, 2012

Each one of us can have a different view or a different taste. But when I see 0.5 or 1 point, it is obvious for me that someone is sandbagging! If you don't like a shot, just don't vote for it! Most of the good shots have this kind of mischievous reaction from some!

This is why I don't like a method in which people can play dirty so easily and harm others!

Cheating will always exist, but we shouldn't make it so easy ! I still think that it is much simpler and much better if the total of the votes decide for a winner!
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CG33
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Re: How to avoid low vote sandbagging?
In reply to l_objectif, Jun 6, 2012

I did not vote on "High Quality Photography", but none of the pictures there deserve votes lower than 3.5 (to my taste of course). So far, this is the challenge with the best pictures I've seen in DPR. Whoever gave 0.5 score to the pictures is clearly sandbagging.

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CG33
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Re: How to avoid low vote sandbagging?
In reply to CG33, Jun 6, 2012

l_objectif, I do not agree on that. Sometimes the Host do not care about his/her challenge. The participants do not adhere to the rules, submit pictures that do not follow the description, or show some kind of identification marks. When that happens I give a 0.5 score.

It is not fair that if you are careful with your image and comply with the requested proportions, size, colors, etc., get lower score than somebody that did not care about and was practically helped by the host. No way, I put my little "score reducer" (0.5) on those entries. Otherwise I will give more than 2.0.

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