D800 sensor light years ahead 5d3

Started Jun 1, 2012 | Discussions
jetstream
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D800 sensor light years ahead 5d3
Jun 1, 2012

Dunno if posted yet, but this could be good news for Canon users... 5d3 price may soon go down quite a bit...

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/News/DxOMark-news/Canon-s-EOS-5D-Mark-III-Stumbles-Against-Rival

Canon EOS 5D Mark III Nikon D800
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davexl
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Re: D800 sensor light years ahead 5d3
In reply to jetstream, Jun 1, 2012

They posted their data a while back, but this article is new. Seems they had to double check and triple check before stating the obvious, because Canon dooes look like they have hit a dead end in sensors.

No DPR style equal points review here

But this is the really interesting graph. Nikon have been ahead for some time (but not in FF high MP price - I got a 5D-II instead of a D3X) - but now the differences are becoming really obvious.

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michaeladawson
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Re: D800 sensor light years ahead 5d3
In reply to jetstream, Jun 1, 2012

Very comical. I love my Nikon cameras. But it sure comes across as Fanboy-ism if I was to say that people that care about IQ would have to be crazy to buy a Canon based on that time plot of several models.

There's more to a nice camera than IQ and DxO marks. But looking at that chart.... jeesh.

jetstream wrote:

Dunno if posted yet, but this could be good news for Canon users... 5d3 price may soon go down quite a bit...

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/News/DxOMark-news/Canon-s-EOS-5D-Mark-III-Stumbles-Against-Rival

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Mike Dawson

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inasir1971
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Re: D800 sensor light years ahead 5d3
In reply to michaeladawson, Jun 1, 2012

My problem with Canon hasn't been with looking at any charts or numbers. It's been driven by frustration at the lack of progress - or willingness to even address the issue of low ISO banding and lack of DR. Even the 5D3 still suffers from it as I am sure the 1DX will.

After the 1DX was unveiled I was skeptical and after the early 5D3 images came out, it was clear that their interest lay with high ISO and had little interest in addressing the problems I had with Canon images.

They are simply ignoring the needs of people who require high DR for things like landscape or need to push the shadows.

Originally I embraced HDR because I had to, now I find don't need to - and am all the happier for that.

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Zlik
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Re: D800 sensor light years ahead 5d3
In reply to michaeladawson, Jun 1, 2012

The problem with the DxOmark score is that it's putting way too much importance on base ISO. DR, color sensitivity and tonal range get the best score at base ISO, once you compare those FX cameras from Nikon and Canon at 800 ISO and up, the results are MUCH closer.

DxOmark is doing a fantastic job testing those sensors, but you have to dig a little bit into every scoring category to find out which camera is better depending on your shooting style .

If you only shoot at base ISO (landscape/studio/architecture), then yes, the Nikon FX cameras are getting better and better while the Canon cameras are hitting the ceiling with their current technology.

But if you shoot events/weddings/sports/etc, the DxOmark overall score means absolutely nothing.

michaeladawson wrote:

Very comical. I love my Nikon cameras. But it sure comes across as Fanboy-ism if I was to say that people that care about IQ would have to be crazy to buy a Canon based on that time plot of several models.

There's more to a nice camera than IQ and DxO marks. But looking at that chart.... jeesh.

jetstream wrote:

Dunno if posted yet, but this could be good news for Canon users... 5d3 price may soon go down quite a bit...

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/News/DxOMark-news/Canon-s-EOS-5D-Mark-III-Stumbles-Against-Rival

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Mike Dawson

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Great British Landscapes
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Re: Canon tries to use software to cover all its flaws...
In reply to jetstream, Jun 1, 2012

It's absolutely clear to me that Canon has stalled in its development twinned with their recent price gouging on every new product it's clear they're going for the jugular with their customer base to prop up poor sales. They seem to think that a JPEG engine that smudges and smears high ISO noise like it does with the 5DMKIII is some sort of substitute for improving DR in their RAW files and this DXO piece just goes to prove how far ahead Nikon have moved in image quality where it counts from top to bottom.

I'm super-impressed with the D800, it's a staggering device, providing output of a quality I never thought would be affordable. Lets face it before now it was all about Medium Format, now the D800 has closed that gap so far that there's next to nothing in it that can arguably truly justify the massive price premium of Medium Format. I don't get this ongoing debate with the 5DMKIII though, because it's abundantly clear they're not in the same category any more. I'm more interested in what the D800 looks like alongside the 645D or a Hasselblad 40MP digital back, not some 20MP rehashed 5+ year old sensor from Canon

jetstream wrote:

Dunno if posted yet, but this could be good news for Canon users... 5d3 price may soon go down quite a bit...

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/News/DxOMark-news/Canon-s-EOS-5D-Mark-III-Stumbles-Against-Rival

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jetstream
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Re: D800 sensor light years ahead 5d3
In reply to michaeladawson, Jun 1, 2012

I don't deny that the 5d3 is a wonderful camera in almost every regard (I'd love to see a Nikon FF with Exmor of same pixel count and fps) but the 5d3 sensor, while being great, is lagging behind Sony Exmor technology and the D800 sensor is simply better, period.

Now about DxO, they conduct tests with a methodology which is the very same for every camera, the results of their tests is extremely reliable.

The one thing that is puzzling is how they come up with their average rating, in partcular when you look at the curves...

Sony Nex 7 has the very same score (81) as D3 and 5D3, but when you compare the curves, it's obvious that there's something wrong with the weighting.

Now with the D800, it doesn't really matter as it achieves a better score than 5d3 in every category.

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JacquesC
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Canon seems more interested in video, but ...
In reply to jetstream, Jun 1, 2012

... they (Canon) still produces excellent DSLR's. They may be lagging somewhat in pure sensor performance but I think the 5DIII is an excellent all-round camera. If I was a Canon shooter I'm sure that I would've been quite happy with it.

Perhaps Canon's preoccupation with video and bringing out high end cine cameras caused them to slip in the sensor department ?
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lock
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True.
In reply to Zlik, Jun 1, 2012

And something about DR: a lot of photo journalists shoot jpeg. They simply do not have the time to a raw to jpeg conversion. Where are you going to put the 14.4 EV's with in camera jpeg conversion?

lock

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inasir1971
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Re: Canon seems more interested in video, but ...
In reply to JacquesC, Jun 1, 2012

JacquesC wrote:

... they (Canon) still produces excellent DSLR's. They may be lagging somewhat in pure sensor performance but I think the 5DIII is an excellent all-round camera. If I was a Canon shooter I'm sure that I would've been quite happy with it.

Perhaps Canon's preoccupation with video and bringing out high end cine cameras caused them to slip in the sensor department ?
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Jacques

Apple & Eve website and blog : apple-and-eve.com

They haven't slipped in the sensor department. They have completely ignored it.

They both have good and bad lenses, but on the whole Canon L primes AF much faster than Nikon 'pro' ones. The Nikon Trinity (24-70 2.8 etc. are the exceptions).

From a workflow perspective the 5D3 may offer a more cost effective solution than the D4, and a faster workflow than the D800.

However, for those who need the DR, or the resolution - the Canon sensors are several generations behind with no new offerings to address these issues in sight.

Some of us have waited years for Canon to catch up with this generation but abandoned it as it seems clear that we will be left waiting for years to come.

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Jack Hogan
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Re: D800 sensor light years ahead 5d3
In reply to Zlik, Jun 1, 2012

Zlik wrote:

But if you shoot events/weddings/sports/etc, the DxOmark overall score means absolutely nothing.

Don't forget that DxO rates the sensor , not the camera as a system. And as far as sensors go, well, you've read the article.

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inasir1971
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Re: True.
In reply to lock, Jun 1, 2012

lock wrote:

And something about DR: a lot of photo journalists shoot jpeg. They simply do not have the time to a raw to jpeg conversion. Where are you going to put the 14.4 EV's with in camera jpeg conversion?

lock

The new Nikon's (the D800/E anyway and presumably the D4) fully utilize this if you enable Active D-Lighting-> Auto. I've been shooting with them and the only thing you need RAW is for dealing with things like LoCA and other minute details which people who shoot JPEG's wouldn't worry about anyway.

The only thing you have to check is AWB as WB is baked in in JPEG's - but that's easy enough if you check your first test shot, or simply set the WB.

If your a PJ and you're trying to catch a shot of someone in bright daylight, the Nikon metering system will detect the face as the intended subject, adjust exposure, and active D lighting will push the face so as to be not a mere shadow.

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MichaelEchos
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Re: D800 sensor light years ahead 5d3
In reply to Zlik, Jun 1, 2012

Zlik wrote:

The problem with the DxOmark score is that it's putting way too much importance on base ISO. DR, color sensitivity and tonal range get the best score at base ISO, once you compare those FX cameras from Nikon and Canon at 800 ISO and up, the results are MUCH closer.

DxOmark is doing a fantastic job testing those sensors, but you have to dig a little bit into every scoring category to find out which camera is better depending on your shooting style .

If you only shoot at base ISO (landscape/studio/architecture), then yes, the Nikon FX cameras are getting better and better while the Canon cameras are hitting the ceiling with their current technology.

But if you shoot events/weddings/sports/etc, the DxOmark overall score means absolutely nothing.

michaeladawson wrote:

Very comical. I love my Nikon cameras. But it sure comes across as Fanboy-ism if I was to say that people that care about IQ would have to be crazy to buy a Canon based on that time plot of several models.

There's more to a nice camera than IQ and DxO marks. But looking at that chart.... jeesh.

jetstream wrote:

Dunno if posted yet, but this could be good news for Canon users... 5d3 price may soon go down quite a bit...

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/News/DxOMark-news/Canon-s-EOS-5D-Mark-III-Stumbles-Against-Rival

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Mike Dawson

Not entirely true. But you should dig deeper. DxOMark is pretty useful if you understand those charts.

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MichaelEchos
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Re: D800 sensor light years ahead 5d3
In reply to davexl, Jun 1, 2012

davexl wrote:

They posted their data a while back, but this article is new. Seems they had to double check and triple check before stating the obvious, because Canon dooes look like they have hit a dead end in sensors.

And the same for APS-C sensors. For APS-C sensors, it's even worse. They haven't improved for years.

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MichaelEchos
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Re: D800 sensor light years ahead 5d3
In reply to jetstream, Jun 1, 2012

jetstream wrote:

I don't deny that the 5d3 is a wonderful camera in almost every regard (I'd love to see a Nikon FF with Exmor of same pixel count and fps) but the 5d3 sensor, while being great, is lagging behind Sony Exmor technology and the D800 sensor is simply better, period.

Now about DxO, they conduct tests with a methodology which is the very same for every camera, the results of their tests is extremely reliable.

The one thing that is puzzling is how they come up with their average rating, in partcular when you look at the curves...

Sony Nex 7 has the very same score (81) as D3 and 5D3, but when you compare the curves, it's obvious that there's something wrong with the weighting.

Now with the D800, it doesn't really matter as it achieves a better score than 5d3 in every category.

Because they take dynamic range and color sensitivity into account too.

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MichaelEchos
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Re: True.
In reply to lock, Jun 1, 2012

lock wrote:

And something about DR: a lot of photo journalists shoot jpeg. They simply do not have the time to a raw to jpeg conversion. Where are you going to put the 14.4 EV's with in camera jpeg conversion?

lock

Via D-Lighting, but PJs still wouldn't utilise the shadow part of the photo entirely. Moreover, I thought PJs wouldn't buy D800?

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harold1968
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for now ....
In reply to jetstream, Jun 1, 2012

Nikon has definitely jumped ahead on the sensor side

Canon will no doubt come back in the next iteration

Thank goodness for the free market!

jetstream wrote:

Dunno if posted yet, but this could be good news for Canon users... 5d3 price may soon go down quite a bit...

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/News/DxOMark-news/Canon-s-EOS-5D-Mark-III-Stumbles-Against-Rival

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Zlik
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Re: D800 sensor light years ahead 5d3
In reply to MichaelEchos, Jun 1, 2012

MichaelEchos wrote:

Zlik wrote:

The problem with the DxOmark score is that it's putting way too much importance on base ISO. DR, color sensitivity and tonal range get the best score at base ISO, once you compare those FX cameras from Nikon and Canon at 800 ISO and up, the results are MUCH closer.

DxOmark is doing a fantastic job testing those sensors, but you have to dig a little bit into every scoring category to find out which camera is better depending on your shooting style .

If you only shoot at base ISO (landscape/studio/architecture), then yes, the Nikon FX cameras are getting better and better while the Canon cameras are hitting the ceiling with their current technology.

But if you shoot events/weddings/sports/etc, the DxOmark overall score means absolutely nothing.

michaeladawson wrote:

Very comical. I love my Nikon cameras. But it sure comes across as Fanboy-ism if I was to say that people that care about IQ would have to be crazy to buy a Canon based on that time plot of several models.

There's more to a nice camera than IQ and DxO marks. But looking at that chart.... jeesh.

jetstream wrote:

Dunno if posted yet, but this could be good news for Canon users... 5d3 price may soon go down quite a bit...

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/News/DxOMark-news/Canon-s-EOS-5D-Mark-III-Stumbles-Against-Rival

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Mike Dawson

Not entirely true. But you should dig deeper. DxOMark is pretty useful if you understand those charts.

And what exactly did I say ?

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Zlik
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Re: D800 sensor light years ahead 5d3
In reply to Jack Hogan, Jun 1, 2012

Jack Hogan wrote:

Zlik wrote:

But if you shoot events/weddings/sports/etc, the DxOmark overall score means absolutely nothing.

Don't forget that DxO rates the sensor , not the camera as a system.

I didn't.

And as far as sensors go, well, you've read the article.

I was talking about sensors. Have you compared the full frame sensors of Canon and Nikon at 800 ISO and up ? Their overall score puts a lot of weight on base ISO performance, that's why you should compare the full charts and not the overall score. At higher ISO, the D800 is a little bit better, but the difference is far away from the 95/81 ratio.

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inasir1971
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Re: for now ....
In reply to harold1968, Jun 1, 2012

harold1968 wrote:

Nikon has definitely jumped ahead on the sensor side

Canon will no doubt come back in the next iteration

Thank goodness for the free market!

Unfortunately, I like many others probably have given Canon the benefit of the doubt for quite a while waiting for this iteration and when it thoroughly disappointed I sold of my Canon glass and switched. It would take quite a lot for me to switch again due to the high cost of changing systems and as I have no complaints about my equipment whatsoever (when I was able to get hold of it). I continue to be pleasantly surprised by what it does I don't see a need for new equipment for many years.

I had hoped for a 1DsIII replacement (it is still listed but uses a processor - Digic III, the current one is Digic V) which is already two generations out of date, and a sensor which is beaten by the 5D3 in almost every regard (and a $6999 price tag - not that anyone stocks it)

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