What would japan be like today if

Started May 29, 2012 | Discussions
Brian
Veteran MemberPosts: 9,769
Like?
What would japan be like today if
May 29, 2012

The U.S. had not used the bomb and demanded an unconditional surrender?

What if there was no occupation of Japan and just a declaration of peace?

Would Japan be the powerful nation it is today? Would they have the freedoms they enjoy today?

-- hide signature --

Brian

Great Bustard
Forum ProPosts: 20,694
Like?
Easy.
In reply to Brian, May 29, 2012

Brian wrote:

The U.S. had not used the bomb and demanded an unconditional surrender?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall

Casualty predictions varied widely but were extremely high for both sides: depending on the degree to which Japanese civilians resisted the invasion, estimates ran into the millions for Allied casualties and several times that number for total Japanese casualties.

What if there was no occupation of Japan and just a declaration of peace?

Let me see. Hiroshima was nuked, and Japan did not surrender. It took a second nuke to convince them. So, I'm guessing this "declaration of peace" means that the Allies just packed up and went home?

Would Japan be the powerful nation it is today? Would they have the freedoms they enjoy today?

I'm thinking they would have rebuilt and tried (most likely successfully) to finish what they started -- the conquering of Asia.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
LeRentier
Forum ProPosts: 12,192Gear list
Like?
Re: What would japan be like today if
In reply to Brian, May 29, 2012

The other side of the question is :
What would the US be like today if it had not pushed Japan into war ?

WWII allowed the US to create debt to finance its war industry and the rest of the economy as a ricochet.

Today, the Japanese industry and innovation are out of reach for any US competitors.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Don_D
Forum ProPosts: 11,568Gear list
Like?
Re: What would japan be like today if
In reply to LeRentier, May 29, 2012

LeRentier wrote:

Today, the Japanese industry and innovation are out of reach for any US competitors.

Yeah, especially IBM, Intel, Boeing, Google, etc.

-- hide signature --
 Don_D's gear list:Don_D's gear list
Sony RX100 Canon EOS 40D Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM Canon EF-S 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM +3 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
RobertSigmund
Veteran MemberPosts: 9,157Gear list
Like?
Re: What would japan be like today if
In reply to Don_D, May 29, 2012

And let's not forget Facebook and the gambling paradises in Reno, Las Vegas and elsewhere. Poor old Japan has nothing comparable!

 RobertSigmund's gear list:RobertSigmund's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-LF1
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
lanef
Forum ProPosts: 10,317
Like?
Re: What would japan be like today if
In reply to Brian, May 29, 2012

Was in Japan last July, frankly, I would not mind living there, minus the earthquake.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
chiane
Senior MemberPosts: 3,178
Like?
Re: What would japan be like today if
In reply to LeRentier, May 29, 2012

LeRentier wrote:

The other side of the question is :
What would the US be like today if it had not pushed Japan into war ?

WWII allowed the US to create debt to finance its war industry and the rest of the economy as a ricochet.

Today, the Japanese industry and innovation are out of reach for any US competitors.

Is your entire goal of every post in this forum to find an angle to get some dig in on the US? You are what we call in the US, 'a complete loser'. You need to get a better hobby. Try Photography.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
lownine
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,734
Like?
Re: What would japan be like today if
In reply to RobertSigmund, May 29, 2012

RobertSigmund wrote:

And let's not forget Facebook and the gambling paradises in Reno, Las Vegas and elsewhere. Poor old Japan has nothing comparable!

I lived in Japan. No, there are no "company towns" devoted to the gambling industry. Who needs that? Can you say, "Pachinko?"

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
lownine
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,734
Like?
Re: What would japan be like today if
In reply to LeRentier, May 29, 2012

LeRentier wrote:

The other side of the question is :
What would the US be like today if it had not pushed Japan into war ?

WWII allowed the US to create debt to finance its war industry and the rest of the economy as a ricochet.

Today, the Japanese industry and innovation are out of reach for any US competitors.

Japan attacks US. It's the fault of the US.

US attacks Iraq. It's the fault of the US.

I'm detecting a pattern here.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
LeRentier
Forum ProPosts: 12,192Gear list
Like?
Re: What would japan be like today if
In reply to lownine, May 29, 2012

The US imposed an embargo on all sorts of imports of strategic goods, including oil, to Japan, during their struggle for power over South East Asia.
It was a matter of economic competition with political and military means.

Japan decided to hit first, in the end they lost the battle but then got even again on the economic front, much later.

You just need to remember that nothing is either black or white and that the truth is sometimes a lot worse than what people imagine.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
chiane
Senior MemberPosts: 3,178
Like?
Re: What would japan be like today if
In reply to LeRentier, May 29, 2012

LeRentier wrote:

The US imposed an embargo on all sorts of imports of strategic goods, including oil, to Japan, during their struggle for power over South East Asia.
It was a matter of economic competition with political and military means.

Japan decided to hit first, in the end they lost the battle but then got even again on the economic front, much later.

You just need to remember that nothing is either black or white and that the truth is sometimes a lot worse than what people imagine.

No, with you it's black and white. Everything on earth is the fault of the US. You are a retard.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Don_D
Forum ProPosts: 11,568Gear list
Like?
Re: What would japan be like today if
In reply to LeRentier, May 29, 2012

LeRentier wrote:

Japan decided to hit first, in the end they lost the battle but then got even again on the economic front, much later.

The US was a benign victor.

"In the mid- to late-1940s, wartime expenses threatened economic ruin in Japan. Post-WW2 inflation, unemployment and shortages in all areas seemed overwhelming. Japan’s immediate economic improvement was not achieved on its own. The American government, under the auspices of the Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers (SCAP), played a crucial role in Japan’s initial economic recovery, although Japanese government measures fostered rapid postwar growth".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_post-war_economic_miracle

About 20-25 years ago Japan challenged IBM and others in the lead for large computer with companies like Hitachi leading the way. That challenge was beaten back by US companies like IBM and Japan is no longer the threat it was in that area.

-- hide signature --
 Don_D's gear list:Don_D's gear list
Sony RX100 Canon EOS 40D Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM Canon EF-S 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM +3 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
lownine
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,734
Like?
Re: What would japan be like today if
In reply to Don_D, May 29, 2012

Don_D wrote:

LeRentier wrote:

Japan decided to hit first, in the end they lost the battle but then got even again on the economic front, much later.

The US was a benign victor.

"In the mid- to late-1940s, wartime expenses threatened economic ruin in Japan. Post-WW2 inflation, unemployment and shortages in all areas seemed overwhelming. Japan’s immediate economic improvement was not achieved on its own. The American government, under the auspices of the Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers (SCAP), played a crucial role in Japan’s initial economic recovery, although Japanese government measures fostered rapid postwar growth".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_post-war_economic_miracle

Let's not forget America's greatest contribution to Japan's post-war economic might...W. Edwards Deming.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Don_D
Forum ProPosts: 11,568Gear list
Like?
Re: What would japan be like today if
In reply to lownine, May 29, 2012

lownine wrote:

Let's not forget America's greatest contribution to Japan's post-war economic might...W. Edwards Deming.

LOL..in my opinion Deming was given more credit than he deserved. Don't know if you ever went through that six sigma stuff but I did, and I think it's mostly BS.

-- hide signature --
 Don_D's gear list:Don_D's gear list
Sony RX100 Canon EOS 40D Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM Canon EF-S 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM +3 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
LeRentier
Forum ProPosts: 12,192Gear list
Like?
Re: What would japan be like today if
In reply to Don_D, May 29, 2012

The economic recovery of Japan also owes to MacArthur who had a brain and used it.

He was a generous victor and actually wanted Japan to become an economic power and a safe base from where to counter a possible communist menace.

Some people still think he had the right attitude when he proposed to nuke North Korea instead of getting stuck in a very expensive war.
(would we have had MASH however ?)

The mentality of the Japanese people, used to function as part of something greater than themselves, also used to obedience to hierarchy, was a formidable force in jump starting new industries.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
lownine
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,734
Like?
Re: What would japan be like today if
In reply to Don_D, May 29, 2012

Don_D wrote:

lownine wrote:

Let's not forget America's greatest contribution to Japan's post-war economic might...W. Edwards Deming.

LOL..in my opinion Deming was given more credit than he deserved. Don't know if you ever went through that six sigma stuff but I did, and I think it's mostly BS.

I've seen it done and done badly. "Badly" usually means, at least, two things. One...the people at the line operation level were usually not adequately supported with the tools and changes needed to pursue the relentless search for the causes of defects. Two...management at most levels was unable to suppress a fascination with the short term. At one place I saw the boss changed the name of the Department Head meeting to something that had a TQM buzzword in it. That was the extent of his embrace of quality improvement.

In Japan, Deming was accorded almost God-like status. "Made in Japan" was transformed from a term of derision to one of envy.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Bill Force
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,607
Like?
Re: What would japan be like today if
In reply to Brian, May 29, 2012

First off I come from a place most of you cannot relate to.

I was a Navy photographer in JAPAN when it received it's status as a soverign nation again. They had NO major manufacturing other than cigarette lighters made from discarded G.I. 'beer cans" and paper and bamboo tiny toy unbrellas. No cars, TV's or cameras made there then.

Within 5 years after WW11 they were again a manufacturing entity WITH the aide of the U.S. both money and technology.

It has been proven by many historians that the "bomb" actually saved many lives on both sides vs. a land invasion that would have taken years to accomplish, so the "bomb" could be constued as HUMANITARIAN by intelligent people.

I was in both Hiroshima and Nagisaki in the early '50's and personally witnessed the devastation to both, horrible buy perhaps a blessing. I certainly hope it will never happen again but I'm willing to bet that in the next half-century some rogue nation will use it on another.
--

' You don't have to have the best of everything to get the best out of what you do have'.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Don_D
Forum ProPosts: 11,568Gear list
Like?
Re: What would japan be like today if
In reply to Bill Force, May 29, 2012

Bill Force wrote:

I was in both Hiroshima and Nagisaki in the early '50's and personally witnessed the devastation to both, horrible buy perhaps a blessing.

I know a very nice Japanese lady who survived Hiroshima; she was nine and at school away from ground zero...she lost her whole family.

I certainly hope it will never happen again but I'm willing to bet that in the next half-century some rogue nation will use it on another.

...or use it on us.

-- hide signature --
 Don_D's gear list:Don_D's gear list
Sony RX100 Canon EOS 40D Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM Canon EF-S 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM +3 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
RobertSigmund
Veteran MemberPosts: 9,157Gear list
Like?
The atomic bombs were a crime against humanity
In reply to Bill Force, May 29, 2012

And they were rather to intimidate Stalin than making Japan capitulate. Japan had to abandon anyway because of lack of resources.

Bill Force wrote:

First off I come from a place most of you cannot relate to.

I was a Navy photographer in JAPAN when it received it's status as a soverign nation again. They had NO major manufacturing other than cigarette lighters made from discarded G.I. 'beer cans" and paper and bamboo tiny toy unbrellas. No cars, TV's or cameras made there then.

Within 5 years after WW11 they were again a manufacturing entity WITH the aide of the U.S. both money and technology.

It has been proven by many historians that the "bomb" actually saved many lives on both sides vs. a land invasion that would have taken years to accomplish, so the "bomb" could be constued as HUMANITARIAN by intelligent people.

I was in both Hiroshima and Nagisaki in the early '50's and personally witnessed the devastation to both, horrible buy perhaps a blessing. I certainly hope it will never happen again but I'm willing to bet that in the next half-century some rogue nation will use it on another.
--

' You don't have to have the best of everything to get the best out of what you do have'.

 RobertSigmund's gear list:RobertSigmund's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-LF1
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Bill Force
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,607
Like?
Re: The atomic bombs were a crime against humanity
In reply to RobertSigmund, May 29, 2012

They ultimately saved many lives on both side, have you been living under a rock someplace. The ignorance you display is a wonder.

One of the regrets is that we didn't use it on you Krauts instead of the Japanese.
--

' You don't have to have the best of everything to get the best out of what you do have'.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads