I do get fed up of reading "MFT can't do this or that..."

Started May 27, 2012 | Discussions
Louis_Dobson
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I do get fed up of reading "MFT can't do this or that..."
May 27, 2012

and then finding the chap is talking about a GF1 or whatever.

There's someone here saying that MFT is useless for shooting models, the AF, frame rate, card writing, DR etc are all below par. He knows this because he tried... with a GF!

This would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic.

Now I have the GF1's close relative here, the G1 (a GF1 with a VF). It was a lovely little camera in it's day, and second hand still very capable of travel photography or backing up a big dSLR or whatever.

But it bears no resemblance to an OM-D whatever!

Pick up a G1 to shoot, and it will grind amiably into focus, and fire a few leisurely frames before the buffer fills, and then you wait for it to write slowly to card. Drop the files into the PC and they are OK, although not very high res, and if you move the sliders very far they fall apart.

That's why when I had a G1 for travel photography, I also had a D3 for serious use.

Now pick up an OM-D. The focus is blazingly fast, it shoots at 9fps for as long as I have ever wanted to hold down the button, and the buffer clears straight away. Drop the files into the PC and you can grossly abuse them.

That's why I no longer have a D3, nor use a G1.

M4/3 is a format. The cameras within it are all very different.
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stimmer
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Amen Louis...
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 27, 2012

That's why I got particularly annoyed at the CNET reviewer talking about the EM5 as a point and shoot replacement, not being able to shoot over ISO 800, bad JPEGS, etc.

There's a lot of education that needs to take place.

I do think that the photographers who Olympus is marketing the EM5 to are smart enough to figure all of this out. It is not a point and shoot replacement by any means.

Are you getting the 75 1.8? I just pre-ordered the other day. It's a definitive buy in to this format at that price for sure, but I just think it will open up all kinds of possibilities. It should be a wonderful outdoors portrait lens(why didn't they weatherseal it?)

I wish they included the hood though, but you can't have everything.

My silver EM5 will be here on Tuesday. Can't wait to start messing around with it. I've gone an awful long time without my EP3 now and I badly missed it. Still love my E5 but I need that portability.

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CharlesB58
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Re: Amen Louis...
In reply to stimmer, May 27, 2012

I've been involved in photography for over 30 years. A common denominator for film or digital, high end cameras or beginner level, is the tendency for people to fault the gear for their own lack of understanding of technique.

I'm using the E520 for concert and theater photos because it's all I have atm. I don't go above ISO 800. People keep asking me what the secret is to the results I get from such an "obsolete" camera. I tell them it starts with understanding how light and shadow interact in a given exposure range, then how those factors effect noise, DR, etc. I start out making sure my captures are going to allow me to do the PP necessary for the final image. Then I am very careful about how I edit the images.

This isn't rocket science, just part of understanding the whole process. Yet, it seems there are a lot of people who feel that the gear can be a substitute for solid technique and if the gear doesn't do that, then it's the gear's fault, not the photographer.

Sure, if technique is equal than the difference in gear can be pronounced. But I think more often than not, people complaining about gear on these forums haven't developed or are even aware of proper technique, so don't realize the shortcoming may not be the gear.
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Jun2
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Re: I do get fed up of reading "MFT can't do this or that..."
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 27, 2012

Agree. In fact, GF1 is not bad, just a bit slow. In most case, People need to learn how to photograph instead of buying the best equipments. OM-D is really good enough for almost everything besides high level AF tracking.

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tt321
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The OMD is extremely new
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 27, 2012

It's still forgivable for some of these comments, but not for very long.

Even continuous AF has been demonstrated to be competitive up to a point.

What M4/3 still cannot do is to match the 20x zooms on the superzoom cameras, or 400mm/2.8 quick AF, or... There is always something

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LincolnB
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"MFT can't do sports"
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 27, 2012

Especially not indoor sports with an old G2...

And certainly not with the even older E-P1...

Is a $5,000 setup with a FF camera, focus tracking, and an f/2.8 long telephoto a better choice for sports? Certainly, if you've got the money, but then again you can't sneak that setup into most pro sports arenas.

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Louis_Dobson
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Re: Amen Louis...
In reply to CharlesB58, May 27, 2012

While this is all perfectly true, and I could easily go back to my E500 if I had to, it is hair shirt photography.

If people, regardless of motive, want blisteringly fast frame rates, high write speeds, instant AF, and huge DR, they can order a black OM-D tomorrow and have it Tuesday, and it will do all that. If they add the 12, 25, 45 and 75mm lenses it will also be pin sharp, shoot in low light and have shallow DoF for good measure.

If they order an early MFT camera and a milk bottle kit lens it may well be excellent value, but it won't do the above.

There is no need to abandon MFT if you need high performance, simply pick a high performance MFT camera (which, today, means the OM-D, but I doubt Panny will make people wait long).

CharlesB58 wrote:

I've been involved in photography for over 30 years. A common denominator for film or digital, high end cameras or beginner level, is the tendency for people to fault the gear for their own lack of understanding of technique.

I'm using the E520 for concert and theater photos because it's all I have atm. I don't go above ISO 800. People keep asking me what the secret is to the results I get from such an "obsolete" camera. I tell them it starts with understanding how light and shadow interact in a given exposure range, then how those factors effect noise, DR, etc. I start out making sure my captures are going to allow me to do the PP necessary for the final image. Then I am very careful about how I edit the images.

This isn't rocket science, just part of understanding the whole process. Yet, it seems there are a lot of people who feel that the gear can be a substitute for solid technique and if the gear doesn't do that, then it's the gear's fault, not the photographer.

Sure, if technique is equal than the difference in gear can be pronounced. But I think more often than not, people complaining about gear on these forums haven't developed or are even aware of proper technique, so don't realize the shortcoming may not be the gear.
--

Some people operate cameras. Others use them to create images. There is a difference.

http://ikkens.zenfolio.com/

http://sarob-w.deviantart.com/

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gulffish
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Re: I do get fed up of reading "MFT can't do this or that..."
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 27, 2012

Yes, yes and yes! And, most of all, those who say with total conviction that a camera they have never touched just can't do something. Unreal!
--
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Louis_Dobson
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Re: "MFT can't do sports"
In reply to LincolnB, May 27, 2012

However, the simple fact is your life would have been made easier by a D3.

or an OM-D.

Yes, we all know it is the shooter, not the camera. However, let us take the shooter as a given, and try and find a fast high end camera.

If you have an E-P1 and want something much faster and more responsive and generally higher performance, you do not have to abandon MFT. MFT is not defined by the E-P1.

MFT now has a full range of cameras and lenses, from the frankly not much better than a P&S, to a camera that stands comparison with the very best. Decide what you need and what you will pay for it.

LincolnB wrote:

Especially not indoor sports with an old G2...

And certainly not with the even older E-P1...

Is a $5,000 setup with a FF camera and an f/2.8 long telephoto a better choice for sports? Certainly, if you've got the money, but then again you can't sneak that setup into most pro sports arenas.

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Crimguy
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Re: I do get fed up of reading "MFT can't do this or that..."
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 27, 2012

I can't agree more with this sentiment. I took my kid to the park yesterday and had many tricky shooting situations, mostly because he was jumping in and out of shadows and there were fountains the kids were running in and out of. Not my first experience with this - we all have to deal with it with kids! But, compared to my 1st gen m43's camera, the EP1, the results were night and day. What I observed:

1) Focusing in single shot is incredibly fast. I'm not a sports photographer but the focus speed is fast enough that the differences between it and a moderate DSLR is irrelevant - as good or better than either my 10D or 5D ever was.

2) Ability to track and keep focus even when distractions appear in front or behind the subject is greatly improved. With the EP1 when I shot my child playing at a splash pad the photos frequently ended up focusing on the water. With the EM5 the focusing chose to stay locked onto the child.

3) The color accuracy with AWB is in my opinion greatly improved. I'm now shooting JPEG+RAW because I can trust the system for the most part and only go to RAW when it screws up.

4) The responsiveness of this camera in SAF or CAF is stellar. I'm confused with CAF+tracking though. It seems to take a couple seconds to allow me to fire off a shot, presumably because it's trying to figure out what subject to focus on.

I did notice some challenges though.

1)The EM5 seems inclined to switch subjects when something a bit more bright comes along. My kid was wearing a grey t-shirt and white shorts, and whenever someone in a bright red or green shirt/shorts came along, the camera's focus box jumped over to that person. I kept things in SAF with the center focus box highlighted for the most part.

2) Evaluative/matrix metering (whatever Olympus calls it) seemed to prefer underexposing shots at times.

Overall, this camera has turned my 5D into a special-use camera, for those times when I want really shallow depth of field. I've been keeping the 100/2.8 macro on that body for the past couple months for portraits and general photography, and will still get some mileage, but I'd wager even that may stop when I get the 45/1.8 for the Olympus.

Heck, if I stop using it entirely I may sell it all and get a second body - I sure think the GX1 would be a great compliment to the EM5, and at the rate Panasonic comes out with cameras it may hit US400 in the next year or so.

People who disparage this system are a bit daft, or simply haven't really tried the most recent offerings (if they've tried it at all).

Louis_Dobson wrote:

and then finding the chap is talking about a GF1 or whatever.

There's someone here saying that MFT is useless for shooting models, the AF, frame rate, card writing, DR etc are all below par. He knows this because he tried... with a GF!

This would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic.

Now I have the GF1's close relative here, the G1 (a GF1 with a VF). It was a lovely little camera in it's day, and second hand still very capable of travel photography or backing up a big dSLR or whatever.

But it bears no resemblance to an OM-D whatever!

Pick up a G1 to shoot, and it will grind amiably into focus, and fire a few leisurely frames before the buffer fills, and then you wait for it to write slowly to card. Drop the files into the PC and they are OK, although not very high res, and if you move the sliders very far they fall apart.

That's why when I had a G1 for travel photography, I also had a D3 for serious use.

Now pick up an OM-D. The focus is blazingly fast, it shoots at 9fps for as long as I have ever wanted to hold down the button, and the buffer clears straight away. Drop the files into the PC and you can grossly abuse them.

That's why I no longer have a D3, nor use a G1.

M4/3 is a format. The cameras within it are all very different.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/acam
http://thegentlemansnapper.blogspot.com

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Louis_Dobson
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Re: I do get fed up of reading "MFT can't do this or that..."
In reply to Crimguy, May 27, 2012

Slightly OT, bbut I think the consensus is switch off tracking in C-AF. I have not yet tried C-AF myself.

Crimguy wrote:

I can't agree more with this sentiment. I took my kid to the park yesterday and had many tricky shooting situations, mostly because he was jumping in and out of shadows and there were fountains the kids were running in and out of. Not my first experience with this - we all have to deal with it with kids! But, compared to my 1st gen m43's camera, the EP1, the results were night and day. What I observed:

1) Focusing in single shot is incredibly fast. I'm not a sports photographer but the focus speed is fast enough that the differences between it and a moderate DSLR is irrelevant - as good or better than either my 10D or 5D ever was.

2) Ability to track and keep focus even when distractions appear in front or behind the subject is greatly improved. With the EP1 when I shot my child playing at a splash pad the photos frequently ended up focusing on the water. With the EM5 the focusing chose to stay locked onto the child.

3) The color accuracy with AWB is in my opinion greatly improved. I'm now shooting JPEG+RAW because I can trust the system for the most part and only go to RAW when it screws up.

4) The responsiveness of this camera in SAF or CAF is stellar. I'm confused with CAF+tracking though. It seems to take a couple seconds to allow me to fire off a shot, presumably because it's trying to figure out what subject to focus on.

I did notice some challenges though.

1)The EM5 seems inclined to switch subjects when something a bit more bright comes along. My kid was wearing a grey t-shirt and white shorts, and whenever someone in a bright red or green shirt/shorts came along, the camera's focus box jumped over to that person. I kept things in SAF with the center focus box highlighted for the most part.

2) Evaluative/matrix metering (whatever Olympus calls it) seemed to prefer underexposing shots at times.

Overall, this camera has turned my 5D into a special-use camera, for those times when I want really shallow depth of field. I've been keeping the 100/2.8 macro on that body for the past couple months for portraits and general photography, and will still get some mileage, but I'd wager even that may stop when I get the 45/1.8 for the Olympus.

Heck, if I stop using it entirely I may sell it all and get a second body - I sure think the GX1 would be a great compliment to the EM5, and at the rate Panasonic comes out with cameras it may hit US400 in the next year or so.

People who disparage this system are a bit daft, or simply haven't really tried the most recent offerings (if they've tried it at all).

Louis_Dobson wrote:

and then finding the chap is talking about a GF1 or whatever.

There's someone here saying that MFT is useless for shooting models, the AF, frame rate, card writing, DR etc are all below par. He knows this because he tried... with a GF!

This would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic.

Now I have the GF1's close relative here, the G1 (a GF1 with a VF). It was a lovely little camera in it's day, and second hand still very capable of travel photography or backing up a big dSLR or whatever.

But it bears no resemblance to an OM-D whatever!

Pick up a G1 to shoot, and it will grind amiably into focus, and fire a few leisurely frames before the buffer fills, and then you wait for it to write slowly to card. Drop the files into the PC and they are OK, although not very high res, and if you move the sliders very far they fall apart.

That's why when I had a G1 for travel photography, I also had a D3 for serious use.

Now pick up an OM-D. The focus is blazingly fast, it shoots at 9fps for as long as I have ever wanted to hold down the button, and the buffer clears straight away. Drop the files into the PC and you can grossly abuse them.

That's why I no longer have a D3, nor use a G1.

M4/3 is a format. The cameras within it are all very different.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/acam
http://thegentlemansnapper.blogspot.com

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Crimguy
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Re: Amen Louis...
In reply to stimmer, May 27, 2012

I'm tempted by the 75mm but it might be a bit too long for me. I'm going to spend an afternoon locking my 40-150 at 75mm to see how I feel about the focal length. I'd have been happier with a 60/1.8.

stimmer wrote:

Are you getting the 75 1.8? I just pre-ordered the other day. It's a definitive buy in to this format at that price for sure, but I just think it will open up all kinds of possibilities. It should be a wonderful outdoors portrait lens(why didn't they weatherseal it?)

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Paul De Bra
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Well said! It can't wipe your ass though...
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 27, 2012

(That's just for those of you who remember that WTD cartoon.)

Coming from a Canon DSLR I have yet to find anything my E-M5 cannot do that the Canon could.

We should focus more on what m43 can do, not what it cannot do. There will always be different categories of cameras, and one can do that the other cannot do. It doesn't matter. What matters is that our camera can do what we want it to do.

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Public pictures at http://debra.zenfolio.com/ .

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LincolnB
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Re: "MFT can't do sports"
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 27, 2012

Louis_Dobson wrote:

However, the simple fact is your life would have been made easier by a D3.

or an OM-D.

No question.

Except that there'd be hell to pay when the MasterCard bill comes due, especially when paired with long fast glass.

Yes, we all know it is the shooter, not the camera. However, let us take the shooter as a given, and try and find a fast high end camera.

If you have an E-P1 and want something much faster and more responsive and generally higher performance, you do not have to abandon MFT. MFT is not defined by the E-P1.

MFT now has a full range of cameras and lenses, from the frankly not much better than a P&S, to a camera that stands comparison with the very best. Decide what you need and what you will pay for it.

Yep.

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Jun2
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Re: Amen Louis...
In reply to Crimguy, May 27, 2012

60mm f1.4 would be even better.

Crimguy wrote:

I'm tempted by the 75mm but it might be a bit too long for me. I'm going to spend an afternoon locking my 40-150 at 75mm to see how I feel about the focal length. I'd have been happier with a 60/1.8.

stimmer wrote:

Are you getting the 75 1.8? I just pre-ordered the other day. It's a definitive buy in to this format at that price for sure, but I just think it will open up all kinds of possibilities. It should be a wonderful outdoors portrait lens(why didn't they weatherseal it?)

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bobn2
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Re: I do get fed up of reading "MFT can't do this or that..."
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 27, 2012

Louis_Dobson wrote:

it shoots at 9fps for as long as I have ever wanted to hold down the button, and the buffer clears straight away.

But you have no VF and no AF above 4FPS. I'm wondering what kind of 9FPS shooting you're doing that you can do without a VF?
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Jon Schick
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Re: I do get fed up of reading "MFT can't do this or that..."
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 27, 2012

The OM-D (I said I wouldn't buy one but then had the chance of an extensive play with bodies belonging to E-System group members in London recently....) is so good that I've done something I thought I'd never do. Sold my E-1 finally this weekend, as I can't honestly see why I would need to use it again.

As for the GF-1, I still love mine, and I like my two body outfit. Once the replacement sensor is in, I suspect my X10 may soon be up for sale too. Can't think of many reasons to keep that either.

M43 does what I need (in fact it does more than what I need). I increasingly wonder what the longer term future is for APSC dSLRs - for me, there'd be a logic to having a combination of m43 and full frame or medium format gear, although sadly not the funds.....

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Jere Landis
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Re: I do get fed up of reading "MFT can't do this or that..."
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 27, 2012

Louis_Dobson wrote:

and then finding the chap is talking about a GF1 or whatever.

There's someone here saying that MFT is useless for shooting models, the AF, frame rate, card writing, DR etc are all below par. He knows this because he tried... with a GF!

This would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic.

Now I have the GF1's close relative here, the G1 (a GF1 with a VF). It was a lovely little camera in it's day, and second hand still very capable of travel photography or backing up a big dSLR or whatever.

But it bears no resemblance to an OM-D whatever!

Pick up a G1 to shoot, and it will grind amiably into focus, and fire a few leisurely frames before the buffer fills, and then you wait for it to write slowly to card. Drop the files into the PC and they are OK, although not very high res, and if you move the sliders very far they fall apart.

That's why when I had a G1 for travel photography, I also had a D3 for serious use.

Now pick up an OM-D. The focus is blazingly fast, it shoots at 9fps for as long as I have ever wanted to hold down the button, and the buffer clears straight away. Drop the files into the PC and you can grossly abuse them.

That's why I no longer have a D3, nor use a G1.

M4/3 is a format. The cameras within it are all very different.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/acam
http://thegentlemansnapper.blogspot.com

How long will it be before the OM-D is obsolete. Will you be discarding all the G1 files because they're so fragile. Maybe if you move the sliders a little more the OM-D files will fall apart. Maybe you should wait for the next really superior camera to come along with 32 mp on a larger sensor and not put yourself through all this. Two years from now the OM-D will be inferior and unacceptable. When is good enough, good enough?

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jeffharris
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Some things never change...
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 27, 2012

Louis_Dobson wrote:

I do get fed up of reading "MFT can't do this or that...
and then finding the chap is talking about a GF1 or whatever.

There's someone here saying that MFT is useless for ...

Ha hah! I guess you never owned a Mac back in the day. Clueless PeaSea users persist regurgitating some of the same ignorant 25 year old myths to this day.

Get over it, don't waste your energy and ignore them.

There's a wise, but fake, latin saying: Illegitimi non carborundum

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muddyfunster
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Re: I do get fed up of reading "MFT can't do this or that..."
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 27, 2012

ii just want some great I.Q fastish telephoto lenses around the 300mm mark, until then the GF1 and the Nikon stays, which is a shame because the E-M5 would easily replace both
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