A missing Con in the Canon 5d III's review: absence of an onboard flash

Started May 23, 2012 | Discussions
Philz
Regular MemberPosts: 141Gear list
Like?
A missing Con in the Canon 5d III's review: absence of an onboard flash
May 23, 2012

To me, pros and cons exist with respect to reference points and expectations, whether consciously or not. The iPhone's camera is ok I guess (barely) but reviewers who say it's great don't compare to a DSLR. Why am I saying that? Because the cons of the Mark IIi are cons vs. expectations built from products available in the market. Can someone refute that the D800 is the elephant in the Canon's review? If you don't, then how come the Canon's cons miss the absence of an onboard flash? Are Nikon engineers so stupid for having included one in the D800?

 Philz's gear list:Philz's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX7
Canon EOS 5D Nikon D800
If you believe there are incorrect tags, please send us this post using our feedback form.
GaryJP
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,803Gear list
Like?
Hate flash. Never want an onboard flash.
In reply to Philz, May 23, 2012

I don't even ever use flash on my point and shoots or my iPhone. The single best thing most people can do for their photography is disable the flash.

-- hide signature --
 GaryJP's gear list:GaryJP's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Canon PowerShot G1 X Sony RX100 II G1 X II Canon EOS-1D Mark III +7 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Shamus1
Senior MemberPosts: 1,581Gear list
Like?
Pro level cameras don't have it....
In reply to Philz, May 23, 2012

The Nikon D4, Canon 1DMkIV, 1D X, Pentax 645D, Fujifilm S2.... Don't have on board flash. Unless you have a small lens without hood, you will have shadows, and limited control, no bounce and tough to diffuse. I avoid it at all costs... Perhaps you should wait for the 7D Mk II, I'm sure it will be a good camera with flash.... I have several pro bodies and the 5DMIII & 7D. Never use it, carry a 580EX, 430EX or 270EX instead...

 Shamus1's gear list:Shamus1's gear list
Canon EOS-1D Mark III Canon EOS 7D Canon EOS-1D Mark IV Canon EOS 5D Mark III Adobe Photoshop CS6 +2 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
chiane
Senior MemberPosts: 3,178
Like?
Re: Hate flash. Never want an onboard flash.
In reply to GaryJP, May 23, 2012

GaryJP wrote:

I don't even ever use flash on my point and shoots or my iPhone. The single best thing most people can do for their photography is disable the flash.

-- hide signature --

Shouldn't that be their choice?

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
davexl
Senior MemberPosts: 1,050
Like?
Re: A missing Con in the Canon 5d III's review: absence of an onboard flash
In reply to Philz, May 23, 2012

I agree with some of the above, and never use flash for people shots.

But for macro, having an onboard flash, or using it as a flash commander can really get you out of a jam, and the fact that it is always there and charged is a plus.

I have never understood those who hate it with a passion. There if you need it, no drama if you don't.

(note, I don't bash my cameras like a photojournalist, so the robust thing need not apply)

-- hide signature --

Things I have clicked with: Agfa 110, Minolta X-300, X700, Nikon F3, F4, Hassleblad 500C/M, 4x5", Sony F717, D70, D200, Canon 1Ds, II, D2x, D3, Canon 5D-II, D800E

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Skip M
Veteran MemberPosts: 7,171
Like?
Re: A missing Con in the Canon 5d III's review: absence of an onboard flash
In reply to Philz, May 23, 2012

Philz wrote:

To me, pros and cons exist with respect to reference points and expectations, whether consciously or not. The iPhone's camera is ok I guess (barely) but reviewers who say it's great don't compare to a DSLR. Why am I saying that? Because the cons of the Mark IIi are cons vs. expectations built from products available in the market. Can someone refute that the D800 is the elephant in the Canon's review? If you don't, then how come the Canon's cons miss the absence of an onboard flash? Are Nikon engineers so stupid for having included one in the D800?

The other way to look at it is that the D800 is the only full 35mm sized sensor camera to include it. The Sony A-900 doesn't, the D3 doesn't and the 1DX doesn't. It's not a con for those cameras, it's a plus (if you want that sort of thing, I don't) for the D800. So, the reference point for a pro, and for many advanced enthusiasts, are the other cameras in its class, and 4 out of 5 don't have that feature. The only other cameras with any pro expectations at all that include the feature are crop cameras, i.e. the 7D, E-5, etc. Is that refutation enough?

Personally, for me, the lack of an on-board flash is a complete non starter as a problem. I had one on my first AF camera, the Canon A2 (EOS5 to the rest of the world) and only used it maybe twice. It was blocked by lenses as relatively small as the 28-135 f3.5-5.6 IS, with a 72mm front element. I've tried it with my 60D, when I had an issue with one of my 580s, and it was blocked, thoroughly, by my 16-35 f2.8L and even caught the edge of my 20-35, and that was on a crop sensor! So, I can say, categorically, that I've found, for my usage, that an on board flash borders on completely useless.
--
Skip M
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
http://www.pbase.com/skipm
http://skipm.smugmug.com/
http://skipmiddletonglamourshooter.blogspot.com/
'Living in the heart of a dream, in the Promised Land!'
John Stewart

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
GaryJP
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,803Gear list
Like?
Re: Hate flash. Never want an onboard flash.
In reply to chiane, May 23, 2012

chiane wrote:

GaryJP wrote:

I don't even ever use flash on my point and shoots or my iPhone. The single best thing most people can do for their photography is disable the flash.

-- hide signature --

Shouldn't that be their choice?

Then it may be a con for them. It isn't for me. Buying a 5D to shoot on-camera flash seems an idiocy.

But if you don't care about light quality , why not use a compact?

There is a reason most pro cameras do NOT have onboard flash.

-- hide signature --
 GaryJP's gear list:GaryJP's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Canon PowerShot G1 X Sony RX100 II G1 X II Canon EOS-1D Mark III +7 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
ScottieC
Contributing MemberPosts: 643Gear list
Like?
I consider on board flash to be gimmicky...
In reply to Philz, May 23, 2012

Onboard flash is a con in my book. It is going to be limited; I rather buy a SpeedLite that will have more power when I actually need flash. I actually consider onboard flash gimmicky. Before Canon wastes time on that, I rather have them give something more useful, like built in WiFi or GPS, or give the camera a larger buffer.

Philz wrote:

To me, pros and cons exist with respect to reference points and expectations, whether consciously or not. The iPhone's camera is ok I guess (barely) but reviewers who say it's great don't compare to a DSLR. Why am I saying that? Because the cons of the Mark IIi are cons vs. expectations built from products available in the market. Can someone refute that the D800 is the elephant in the Canon's review? If you don't, then how come the Canon's cons miss the absence of an onboard flash? Are Nikon engineers so stupid for having included one in the D800?

 ScottieC's gear list:ScottieC's gear list
Canon EOS-1D Mark II Canon EOS 5D Mark II Canon EOS 7D Canon EOS 5D Mark III Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM +8 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
commiebiker
Senior MemberPosts: 1,388Gear list
Like?
Re: A missing Con in the Canon 5d III's review: absence of an onboard flash
In reply to Skip M, May 23, 2012

I have a D700, and I don't think I've ever used the flash for taking pictures, but .....

I have used it many times in Commander mode to trigger off-camera flash, and that's a pretty handy feature.

 commiebiker's gear list:commiebiker's gear list
Nikon D3S Sony Alpha NEX-7 Nikon D4 Nikon D800 Sony Alpha 7R +8 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Juhn
Regular MemberPosts: 187
Like?
5d3 is not Pro body
In reply to Shamus1, May 24, 2012

No flash does not automatically make pro body.
5D does not have weather seal like 1d.
Also over $3000 price does not automatically make it Pro body.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Colin K. Work
Contributing MemberPosts: 720
Like?
Re: Hate flash. Never want an onboard flash.
In reply to GaryJP, May 24, 2012

I hate video, never used it ... until the last shoot I was on when the client asked if I could record a simple task to illustrate a point on their website.

Well I made loads of excuses about knowing nothing about video, but said I'd give it a go. Simple point and shoot exercise, but it came out OK and client was very happy.

I may never shoot video again, but on that day I made a mental apology to Canon for all the bad things I'd said about them sullying my DSLR with video

Likewise, I don't like flash and (almost) never use on board flash. However, on a couple of occassions the flash on my 7D has got me out of a sticky situation - once when when my 'pro' flash failed, and another when I didn't have a flash with me and was unexpectedly put in a situation where flash was required.

Given that real world photography isn't always fine art,and sometimes getting a shot is all that matters, I say give me whatever you can to increase my flexibility ... PROVIDED it does not compromise the camera in some other way.

Whether this would have been possible with the 5D3, I'm not sure.

Cheers,

Colin
--
Colin K. Work
http://www.ckwphoto.com

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Rickard Hansson
Senior MemberPosts: 2,081Gear list
Like?
Re: Hate flash. Never want an onboard flash.
In reply to GaryJP, May 24, 2012

Well, do you think THAT is THE reason?

I would say that flash might be more of an potential problem when it comes to breakage, dust and moist and that stuff.

-- hide signature --

Rickard Hansson
Sweden

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Skip M
Veteran MemberPosts: 7,171
Like?
No? Are you sure about that?
In reply to Juhn, May 24, 2012

Juhn wrote:

No flash does not automatically make pro body.
5D does not have weather seal like 1d.
Also over $3000 price does not automatically make it Pro body.

You're right, but... The 5D3 does have the same weather sealing as pro bodies of just a couple of generations ago. Additionally, a great many pros use it and it is a qualifying camera for Canon Professional Services in the US.

I'd say that Canon had the expectation that professional photographers would be using it, just as they did its predecessors. Canon has endowed the 5D3 with other professional level features like dual card slots and a multiplicity of focus points. Of course, there's that pesky green square setting, which, in my opinion, no professional camera should have, but what do I know?
--
Skip M
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
http://www.pbase.com/skipm
http://skipm.smugmug.com/
http://skipmiddletonglamourshooter.blogspot.com/
'Living in the heart of a dream, in the Promised Land!'
John Stewart

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
GaryJP
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,803Gear list
Like?
Re: Hate flash. Never want an onboard flash.
In reply to Rickard Hansson, May 24, 2012

Rickard Hansson wrote:

Well, do you think THAT is THE reason?

I would say that flash might be more of an potential problem when it comes to breakage, dust and moist and that stuff.

None of those would matter if it were something pro photographers demanded on the 1 series cameras. They don't.

-- hide signature --
 GaryJP's gear list:GaryJP's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Canon PowerShot G1 X Sony RX100 II G1 X II Canon EOS-1D Mark III +7 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
GaryJP
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,803Gear list
Like?
Re: 5d3 is not Pro body
In reply to Juhn, May 24, 2012

Juhn wrote:

No flash does not automatically make pro body.

No one said it did.

5D does not have weather seal like 1d.

No one said it did, but it's still pretty firmly weather-sealed.

Also over $3000 price does not automatically make it Pro body.

No one said it did. But what does make it a pro body is that it's ideal for some pro uses.

-- hide signature --
 GaryJP's gear list:GaryJP's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Canon PowerShot G1 X Sony RX100 II G1 X II Canon EOS-1D Mark III +7 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
AC1
AC1
Senior MemberPosts: 1,163Gear list
Like?
Re: A missing Con in the Canon 5d III's review: absence of an onboard flash
In reply to Philz, May 24, 2012

It's a strange world when something being missing/ommitted/removed from the spec is regarded as enhancing the professional status of the gadget!

But such twisted navel gazing logic is only to be expected from DPR forums I guess.

Obviously some people would never use built-in flash even if it was on 5D3. But it's equally obvious that for others it would be a welcome addition if only to help out on rare occassions when caught out not carrying a bulky external around.

Shock horror! the camera snobs here would never be seen dead using built-in flash. But for rest of us more balanced individuals (who still have plenty spending power) the existence of a built-in flash option would enhance the spec of the 5D3, not detract from it.

It just seems common sense to me. But that's the problem with common sense. It's not very common. Certainly not around here anyway.

 AC1's gear list:AC1's gear list
Canon PowerShot S95 Canon EOS 7D Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM Canon EF-S 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM +2 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Ed/Chicago
Regular MemberPosts: 163
Like?
Re: A missing Con in the Canon 5d III's review: absence of an onboard flash
In reply to Skip M, May 24, 2012

For me, not having an onboard flash is devastating. I shoot all my landscapes with it. Also baseball games.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
GaryJP
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,803Gear list
Like?
Re: A missing Con in the Canon 5d III's review: absence of an onboard flash
In reply to AC1, May 24, 2012

AC1 wrote:

It's a strange world when something being missing/ommitted/removed from the spec is regarded as enhancing the professional status of the gadget!

Would you like it to make coffee too? Someone, somewhere would want it.

If it isn't a factor for some of us, it is not a con for us, and to label it as one in a review would be stupid. If you want a flash there are lots of other models.

-- hide signature --
 GaryJP's gear list:GaryJP's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Canon PowerShot G1 X Sony RX100 II G1 X II Canon EOS-1D Mark III +7 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
bronxbombers
Forum ProPosts: 18,226
Like?
Re: I consider on board flash to be gimmicky...
In reply to ScottieC, May 24, 2012

yeah and when you don't have the speedlite with you when something unexpected comes up??

ScottieC wrote:

Onboard flash is a con in my book. It is going to be limited; I rather buy a SpeedLite that will have more power when I actually need flash. I actually consider onboard flash gimmicky. Before Canon wastes time on that, I rather have them give something more useful, like built in WiFi or GPS, or give the camera a larger buffer.

Philz wrote:

To me, pros and cons exist with respect to reference points and expectations, whether consciously or not. The iPhone's camera is ok I guess (barely) but reviewers who say it's great don't compare to a DSLR. Why am I saying that? Because the cons of the Mark IIi are cons vs. expectations built from products available in the market. Can someone refute that the D800 is the elephant in the Canon's review? If you don't, then how come the Canon's cons miss the absence of an onboard flash? Are Nikon engineers so stupid for having included one in the D800?

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
cyk
cyk
Forum MemberPosts: 51
Like?
Re: A missing Con in the Canon 5d III's review: absence of an onboard flash
In reply to AC1, May 24, 2012

I agree with what you wrote. I wish the 5DIII had on-board flash so long as that doesn't add significant weight or increase the price.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads