OM-D needs more light, longer exposure times! (imaging-resource.com)

Started May 15, 2012 | Discussions
Adventsam
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Re: OM-D needs more light, longer exposure times! (imaging-resource.com)
In reply to NuFonaut, May 15, 2012

NuFonaut wrote:

There have been comparison shots between GH2 and EM-5 on another M4/3 forum (am trying to find it) which showed equally bright pictures with the completely same settings. I have no reason to believe the EM-5 differs more than 1/3 EV which is neglible.

The old Panasonics were underrated in terms of Isos, the newer ones aren´t so it makes basically no difference.

Bury, Head, Sand.

Jman13 wrote:

Everyone is inferring things from pictures taken on different days with different cameras under possibly different lighting.

I, however actually own an E-M5, and a GX1 and a GH2. I have tested the E-M5 at the same settings vs the GH2 and the GX1 and in BOTH cases, when shot under constant light at the same time, with the same ISO, shutter speed and aperture, the E-M5 image is BRIGHTER or the same as the GH2 and GX1.

I took a shot of the same subject this morning after seeing this thread, at the same time with the exact same settings on both cameras (ISO 200, f/2.8, 1/15s, 45mm). When sampling the dead center of the same middle toned square (it was a calendar I shot) on the shot from each camera:

The dead center of the GX1 shot showed values in Lightroom of: 60.9, 60.4, 64.0

The E-M5 in the exact same spot? 60.5, 60.9, 64.1.

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What´s that noise?

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drj3
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Re: Just wait for DxO Mark (nt)
In reply to Jogger, May 15, 2012

If you compare the Olympus and Sony images, the Sony is underexposed compared to the Olympus. The Sony would have been better exposed at 1/320.
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RicksAstro
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Re: OM-D needs more light, longer exposure times! (imaging-resource.com)
In reply to temama, May 15, 2012

I agree that is uses longer shutter speeds at the same aperture/ISO...it meters towards exposing to the right. But even doing this, it still has more headroom in the highlights than the GH2 as well as the much improved shadows. So it's a win/win.

In my tests using the same shutter, aperture and ISO (as well as 1/3 stop higher ISO) as compared to a GH2, the E-M5 still produced better shadow details and held highlights better.

In the real world, if you'd like you can dial in 1/3 stop underexposure if it makes you happy to get more similar shutter speeds...you're still going to end up with a nicer image with greater captured dynamic range.

It compared well with even the APSC NEX5N

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don_van_vliet
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Haven't we covered this before? nt.
In reply to temama, May 15, 2012

no text

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Jman13
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Re: OM-D needs more light, longer exposure times! (imaging-resource.com)
In reply to RicksAstro, May 15, 2012

RicksAstro wrote:

I agree that is uses longer shutter speeds at the same aperture/ISO...it meters towards exposing to the right. But even doing this, it still has more headroom in the highlights than the GH2 as well as the much improved shadows. So it's a win/win.

In my tests using the same shutter, aperture and ISO (as well as 1/3 stop higher ISO) as compared to a GH2, the E-M5 still produced better shadow details and held highlights better.

In the real world, if you'd like you can dial in 1/3 stop underexposure if it makes you happy to get more similar shutter speeds...you're still going to end up with a nicer image with greater captured dynamic range.

It compared well with even the APSC NEX5N

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This is true as well....the E-M5 does meter brighter (If set to Av and the same EC, at the same ISO, the E-M5 will choose a slower shutter speed, which results in the images being about 1/3 stop brighter when metering the same scene...but that says nothing about ISO and only shows a difference in metering. In all my experience, the E-M5, GH2 and GX1 are all extremely close to the same ISO rating, and if anything, the E-M5 is slightly more sensitive.

Now, will this be the exact case for ALL GH2's, GX1s and E-M5s? Maybe, maybe not...I don't know what kind of sample variation is present in these cameras, but I know that they are all very close to the same ISO ratings, so even with slight variation, it should essentially be a wash.
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bg2b
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Re: OM-D needs more light,cheats ISO
In reply to Adventsam, May 15, 2012

Adventsam wrote:

They cheat by 2/3 ev. Louis and I agree it matters not a jot but why do it?

The only explicit JPEG metering test with a published and calibrated methodology that I've seen is dpreview's, which says 1/3.

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Bob Tullis
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Choose your compromise
In reply to temama, May 15, 2012

Any particular format of body and/or lens will be a compromise to one degree or another. Splitting hairs helps determine what one will settle for, or not. This split hair is not a compromise of much concern afaic - ymmv.

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Tim F 101
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Louis already covered this elsewhere
In reply to temama, May 15, 2012

If it 'cheated' the M5 would either have more blown highlights (due to overexposing) or else less recoverable information in underexposed areas, depending on which sort of cheating we are talking about. An M5 image both has more recoverable highlights and more information in underexposed dark areas than an equivalent image by a GH2. Therefore its sensor has significantly better dynamic range than the previous best m4/3 sensor. That measurement in fact determines how good your pictures look, not how well ISO is calibrated.

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OniMirage
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Re: OM-D needs more light, longer exposure times! (imaging-resource.com)
In reply to temama, May 15, 2012

temama wrote:

New imaging-resource.com E-M5 test samples here:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/omd-em5/omd-em5A7.HTM

It seems that there was nothing wrong with dpreview's OM-D test images, what comes to exposure times of E-M5. New imaging-resource's E-M5 test samples proves that.

OM-D needs more light (longer exposure times) at same ISO value!

Is this Olympus' attempt/trick to make the sensor better looking than what it is?
Yes - I think...

This is one place where DXO makes sense. Go take a look at pretty much any camera and yes Canon and Nikon as well and look at the measurements. You will see that Olympus has followed a trend other manufacturers were doing. Olympus started doing this with the 12mp sensors. So far the 16mp sensor has yet to be tested however I am sure that since everyone else is still doing it they aren't going to change.

Some examples:

  • Olympus E-M5, ISO 3200, 1/320sec

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/omd-em5/omd-em5A7.HTM

  • Panasonic G3, ISO 3200, 1/400sec

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/DMCG3/DMCG3THMB.HTM

  • Panasonic GF2, ISO3200, 1/500sec

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/DMCGF2/DMCGF2THMB.HTM

  • Sony NEX-5N, ISO 3200, 1/500sec

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/NEX5N/NEX5NTHMB.HTM

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roblarosa
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Re: OM-D needs more light, longer exposure times! (imaging-resource.com)
In reply to temama, May 15, 2012

Sounds like you need to familiarize yourself with how ISO for digital cameras are determined. No one is "cheating" or misstating any thing.

Read this and try to understand it, or just continue to troll.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_speed#Digital_camera_ISO_speed_and_exposure_index

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Danel
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Re: Studio tests, lighting might not be the same
In reply to temama, May 15, 2012

temama wrote:

Fiatopichan wrote:

Not the same day test, the light doesn't always the same everyday. This doesn't prove anything.

Yes, it proves. They use exactly the same kind of studio lighting in these indoor samples

Not so sure about that. In another thread (not sure the forum) I saw where one of the dpreview staff, Richard Butler I think, mentioned that the studio lighting hasn't always been consistent. He didn't seem to think it would be a big deal since the camera just adjusts the shutter speed to compensate. When a big uproar ensued he countered by saying that while the difference between very slow shutter speeds might make a difference in an ISO test (something like 1/2 second versus 2 seconds), the difference between something like 1/500 versus 1/320 would be negligible. I don't know if that's true at Imaging Resource also or not. All I'm saying is that these tests have been going on over a long period of time. I would not make the assumption that the level of studio lighting has always been 100% consistent. Dpreview has admitted that is case here.

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Danel
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Check this link regarding light levels
In reply to temama, May 15, 2012

temama wrote:

Fiatopichan wrote:

Not the same day test, the light doesn't always the same everyday. This doesn't prove anything.

Yes, it proves. They use exactly the same kind of studio lighting in these indoor samples.

How do you know the light levels remain the same? They change with dpreview and may with Imaging Resource as well.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=40930304

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temama
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This is not the first time....
In reply to roblarosa, May 15, 2012

roblarosa wrote:

Sounds like you need to familiarize yourself with how ISO for digital cameras are determined. No one is "cheating" or misstating any thing.

Read this and try to understand it, or just continue to troll.

I don't trolling, I did just a observation - and I'm not the only one with this notice

BTW - This is not the first time that the camera manufacturers do tricks with ISO values and exposure methods.

Pentax did so with their K-7 model. This model was equipped with a relatively poor 14.6mp samsung sensor...Click here to read more:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=36860449

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=33527502

... are set to reduce the brightness so this overexposed raw data appears with the expected brightness in the produced JPEG, although there will be some extra tendency to clip bright tones in colour channels. If one were cynical, they might assume that this is to cause the camera's metering system to Expose To The Right (ETTR) as far as possible and a little bit extra to help mask the somewhat high deep shadow noise of the K-7 as compared to its major competitors...

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temama
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Re: Check this link regarding light levels
In reply to Danel, May 15, 2012

Danel wrote:

temama wrote:

Fiatopichan wrote:

Not the same day test, the light doesn't always the same everyday. This doesn't prove anything.

Yes, it proves. They use exactly the same kind of studio lighting in these indoor samples.

How do you know the light levels remain the same? They change with dpreview and may with Imaging Resource as well.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=40930304

I do not believe in strange coincidences.
Why two different site changed the lighting just when E-M5 came out?

But who knows, maybe I'm wrong. In any case, this is too boring to debate more. I'm sure E-M5 is a great camera, with its many fine features. I'm glad that Olympus managed well with this model.

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Susan G
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Re: OM-D needs more light, longer exposure times! (imaging-resource.com)
In reply to Adventsam, May 15, 2012
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Louis_Dobson
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No, you're right...
In reply to temama, May 15, 2012

temama wrote:

I don't trolling, I did just a observation - and I'm not the only one with this notice

Quite. Someone made this, entirely incorrect, observation before, a bunch of people who (for assorted warped reasons of their own) want the sensor to be rubbish repeated and now some mathematically challenged people firmy beleive it and keep repeating it, and if you explain to them why they are wrong (which has to be done endlessly...) they just think you are a fanboy. It is very tiresome. Like watching small children who think they've discovered where the tooth fairy lives. The idea there is no tooth fairy is too hard to get through to them.

BTW - This is not the first time that the camera manufacturers do tricks with ISO values and exposure methods.

Pentax did so with their K-7 model. This model was equipped with a relatively poor 14.6mp samsung sensor...Click here to read more:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=36860449

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=33527502

... are set to reduce the brightness so this overexposed raw data appears with the expected brightness in the produced JPEG, although there will be some extra tendency to clip bright tones in colour channels. If one were cynical, they might assume that this is to cause the camera's metering system to Expose To The Right (ETTR) as far as possible and a little bit extra to help mask the somewhat high deep shadow noise of the K-7 as compared to its major competitors...

Whee! So the K7 "cheats" the other way!

In point of fact it is entirely up to the manufacturer to decide where he wants to give you highlight or shadow latitude, and if you as a user prefer the other, fine, write a change.

I over exposed this by a stop as part of a bracket, and in JPG the over exposure is obvious. As you can see, everything, including the highlights, has come right back. The Oly majors on highlight recovery rather than quiet shadows, which is great by me. If you don't like it, ETTR.

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gulffish
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Re: OM-D needs more light, longer exposure times! (imaging-resource.com)
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 15, 2012

Louis_Dobson wrote:

Meter under reads by 1/3 of a stop, within the ISO spec, yawn, big deal.
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Just Having Fun
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You ruined Aventsam's Day!!
In reply to Jman13, May 15, 2012

This is what I found comparing the EM5 to my A65 with Minolta MD lens. Virtually no difference.

I am bookmarking this post and a couple others that are under the smae conditions. They prove that Adventsam's 2/3rds to 1 EV claim is false.

Jman13 wrote:

No, everything else that 'says' otherwise is comparison shots that were taken on different days.

Here are shots, taken about one minute apart, from the same location, on the same day, under the exact same lighting, with the same lens on each camera.

ISO 200, f/1.8, 1/100s for both images. The sample spot for the values under the histogram is the center of the box opening tab flap.

GH2, ISO 200:

E-M5, ISO 200:

ISO 1600, f/1.8, 1/800s for both cameras, same sample spot:

GH2, ISO 1600:

E-M5, ISO 1600:

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szlevi
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Re: Check this link regarding light levels
In reply to temama, May 15, 2012

temama wrote:

Danel wrote:

temama wrote:

Fiatopichan wrote:

Not the same day test, the light doesn't always the same everyday. This doesn't prove anything.

Yes, it proves. They use exactly the same kind of studio lighting in these indoor samples.

How do you know the light levels remain the same? They change with dpreview and may with Imaging Resource as well.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=40930304

I do not believe in strange coincidences.

Yet you do believe you know it all without being there?

Interesting way of thinking... far from logical, I must say.

Why two different site changed the lighting just when E-M5 came out?

Oh, noes.... it's TERRRRRAR: IT IS A C-O-N-S-P-I-R-A-C-Y!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But who knows, maybe I'm wrong. In any case, this is too boring to debate more. I'm sure E-M5 is a great camera, with its many fine features. I'm glad that Olympus managed well with this model.

No, do not stop, do not give up, SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH, GET TO THE ROOT OF THIS EVIL C-O-N-S-P-I-R-A-C-Y!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Beautiful shot! [nt]
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 15, 2012
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