New camera dillusion........D4, D800....BS!

Started May 11, 2012 | Discussions
Fletch147
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Luke....
In reply to Luke Kaven, May 11, 2012

Luke Kaven wrote:

I think that one day with these two cameras would change your mind. I see a lot of things that the D800 can do, even at web size, that its predecessors could not do.

Then PLEASE show me..... a link at least?

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Jonathan. (Fletch)

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gipper51
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Re: New camera dillusion........D4, D800....BS!
In reply to Fletch147, May 11, 2012

Fletch147 wrote:

MartynD2oo wrote:

I'm with you Fletch on what we have been seeing here, makes me laugh all these D800 'test' images of non-subjects. I know people are over excited by having a new toy but at least post images that actually put this 36mp bad boy under some pressure.

Just give it a few months until all these amateur photos slowly disappear and we should start seeing the cream rise to the top.

Well mate, if your images dont start changing things....nobodies will..... I just cannot believe the amount of posts stating ' look at this amazing D800 36MP shot' to open in excitement to an out of focus noisy image that could have been taken on D100........

I posted this yesterday in the 5D forum. Take it for what it' worth. It showed me the resolution difference is nothing to get excited about. I want a D800 for the low ISO DR.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1032&thread=41480755

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cluna
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Re: New camera dillusion........D4, D800....BS!
In reply to Fletch147, May 11, 2012

Fletch147 wrote:

Sorry...actually I'm not.....BUT all these posts with 'amazing mind blowing' images form the NEW D800 and NEW D4............

I have seen NOTHING that could not have looked as good with a DSLR from 2 or 3 years ago......nothing at all.

It is true, the images posted are not any better than you can already achieve.

DR might be better for the D800. So pulling up the shadows might be better than our D3s. However it would only be noticed if you looked at he before and after on both.

Resolution might be better too so that means you get to hit the zoom button two more times Otherwise there will be little more to be seen since we scale down and it takes analysis to reveal the advantage.

The D4 supposedly feels better, better VF, ect..so that might hold a little advantage but that doesnt affect the 'AWESOME' images that people are claiming.

I think if you compare the D3s with the next generation, the difference will be noticeable but nowhere to the extreme that we got in the first couple generations of DSLRs

-C

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cluna
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Re: New camera dillusion........D4, D800....BS!
In reply to gipper51, May 11, 2012

gipper51 wrote:

I posted this yesterday in the 5D forum. Take it for what it' worth. It showed me the resolution difference is nothing to get excited about. I want a D800 for the low ISO DR.

The biggest advantage that I didn't expect was the higher resolution allows you to go more radical with NR and still retain great detail. Lower rez requires you nail it right the first time

-C

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cluna
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Re: I tend to agree with you to a point
In reply to gonzalu, May 11, 2012

gonzalu wrote:

because there ARE differences... but yes, they are hard to quantify on the web JPGs... However, color and detail are much better today, even in small web posts...

The camera above is Nikon Coolpix 995... an AWESOME cam for its time!

Cheers

Kinda like this image...what is it from? (dont read the exif or banner)

-C

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Fletch147
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Re: New camera dillusion........D4, D800....BS!
In reply to cluna, May 11, 2012

cluna wrote:

Fletch147 wrote:

Sorry...actually I'm not.....BUT all these posts with 'amazing mind blowing' images form the NEW D800 and NEW D4............

I have seen NOTHING that could not have looked as good with a DSLR from 2 or 3 years ago......nothing at all.

It is true, the images posted are not any better than you can already achieve.

DR might be better for the D800. So pulling up the shadows might be better than our D3s. However it would only be noticed if you looked at he before and after on both.

Resolution might be better too so that means you get to hit the zoom button two more times Otherwise there will be little more to be seen since we scale down and it takes analysis to reveal the advantage.

The D4 supposedly feels better, better VF, ect..so that might hold a little advantage but that doesnt affect the 'AWESOME' images that people are claiming.

I think if you compare the D3s with the next generation, the difference will be noticeable but nowhere to the extreme that we got in the first couple generations of DSLRs

-C

Agreed.......hence the clever money going on the D700 and D3S now..... I mean...over 5 grand for the D4 in th UK?! Get real! Buy a D3s for nearly half that
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David H Dennis
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Re: New camera dillusion........D4, D800....BS!
In reply to cluna, May 11, 2012

I don't think Nikon has made any significant claims about better image quality with the D4.

Instead, they are talking up new video features and autofocus that works better in low light.

I have the opportunity to shoot with a D3S in low light, and for the most part I loved the images I was getting. But I had to focus most of them manually because the autofocus was not getting the shot. If the autofocus in the D4 works as advertised, I should have a lot more usable images with it. That will produce better pictures, even if the image quality is no different from the D3S.

I can say my D3S images were far superior to images I was getting in my current camera, a D300. The superior high ISO performance, the brighter viewfinder, etc, significantly improved the quality of images I was getting out of the camera.

I will admit, though, that if I wasn't always trying to pull down images in extreme low light conditions, it would be impossible for me to justify the purchase of the D4. The D300 still works great in all but the toughest of shooting conditions. But I think that for me, with the photography I do, the D4 will be a huge improvement.

D

Here's Sara, in nearly complete darkness, using the D3S. Someone mentioned this image was a little out of focus; that's why I think the D4 will improve my pictures :). My D300 would have been barely able to resolve any sort of image at all in this light.

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RBFresno
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Re: New camera dillusion........D4, D800....BS!
In reply to Fletch147, May 11, 2012

Sorry...actually I'm not.....BUT all these posts with 'amazing mind blowing' images form the NEW D800 and NEW D4............

Well. I agree up to a point.

Up to a point, one can get 'amazing and mind blowing" images with an iPhone or P&S.

But under other circumstances, one is more likely get better images with one of Nikon's top tier cameras than with lesser equipment.

I have seen NOTHING that could not have looked as good with a DSLR from 2 or 3 years ago......nothing at all.

How do you know that?

Do you know that a "good" DSLR fom 3 years ago would have nailed the focus of a fast moving subject in poor light as well as a D4?

Perhaps the D4 image you see doesn't appear to you as something that the D3 might also have gotten; but you don't have the misfocused and or noisier D3 image to compare.

Would I have gotten a significantly "better" picture of this with a D4?:
Hildebrandt's Starling (Lamprotornis hildebrandti)

Nikon D3 ,Carl Zeiss Makro-Planar T* 2/100 ZF
1/500s f/5.6 at 100.0mm iso1600

In my estimation, the D4 wouldn't have done a whole lot better.

How 'bout his one:

Nikon D4 ,Nikkor AF-S 500mm f/4G ED VR ,SB-900
1/500s f/4.0 at 500.0mm iso4000

This leopard was buried deep in the shadows of the tree. I was at maximal aperture (f/4), and ISO 4000.

Having shot with a D3 since the day it was released, I can tell you that I doubt I would have done as well as I did with D4. The low light focusing of D4 is significanly better than that of the D3.

This may well get a few backs up.....

BUT I still see far better images from the D3100 and Canon 600D forums....

You wont see any full frame images that are "far better" than those from a D800 or D4 from these cameras

I wonder how a D3100 would have captured this:

Whoops. that was a bracketed exposure. The D3100 doesn't do bracketed exposures...

How about this:
Nikon D3 ,Nikkor 28mm f/1.4D AF
1/1600s f/1.4 at 28.0mm iso1600

Whoops again...the D3100 can't autofocus AF-D lenses.

How about this one:
Nikon D3 ,Nikkor 200mm f/2G IF-ED AF-S VR
1/5000s f/2.2 at 200.0mm iso200

How do you think the D3100's CAM 1000 AF compares to the D4's?

Not ONE photograph posted would look any worse on a D700.....5D mk2....certainly D3s.

Again, there is no way you an know this for all images.

How do you know that those other cameras would have nailed a dififficult focus subject as accurately as a D4?

I sympathise with those who pay double what a camera's worth on release....then get cameras that are full of bugs and faults........

Clever money now goes on the D700 and D3s

D700, I agree (for some uses/conditions; not my first choice for low light sports)

The used D3s's are not being discounted much.

And of course used camera's are just that, used; and without new camera warranties.

Just my opinion....and I'm entitled to it

Agree.

RB

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Mitchydkid
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Re: New camera dillusion........D4, D800....BS!
In reply to cluna, May 11, 2012

This whole thread is kinda silly. I mean, for those of us stupid enough to buy a D800 it is very unlikely we are capable of learning from or even comprehending such sage enlightenment. We are lost causes. We are members of the "more money than brains" club. Now can somebody please help me cut my steak?

On a more serious note (barely), I drive a Corvette. My Corvette can go very fast. My Corvette can go around corners very fast. My Corvette can stop VERY damn fast! BUT, most of the time, my Corvette takes me to work in some pretty heavy traffic at the exact same speeds as all the lesser performance capable cars surrounding me. That does not mean my car is no better than those around it. It just means my car only shines when the situation calls for or allows it.

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faterikcartman
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Re: based on your history...
In reply to Fletch147, May 11, 2012

Fletch147 wrote:

TOR8472 wrote:

Based on your camera buy / sell / upgrade / downgrade history, I guessing this is a note to yourself trying to convince yourself you don't need to upgrade again?

I don't have a D800, so I'm not offended in the slightest by your post, I'm just wondering how long it will be before I read a post from you saying that you are buying a D800...

Fair point..and I can take a dig BUT IF I was to get a new camera NOW....it would be D700 or 5D MK2.

Or even less......the more I use ALL these cameras.....(for me) I realise the cheap ones do just as good a job regarding IQ

who knows...next time I post I may be on the mobile phone forum lol

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Cheers,

Jonathan. (Fletch)

From this and your original post it sounds like you only publish images to the web, or maybe small prints. For such usage the 5Dmk2 and D700 are a waste of money. Take the advice above and buy a used D70 or Canon equivalent. Frankly, something like a Canon S100 would probably give you the most bang for the buck and complete photographic satisfaction in a more convenient package than a bulky D70.

It is refreshing to see a poster take an honest assessment of their usage and needs and realize that for their limited requirements they are much better off buying less expensive gear. What you may not have realized is that DP Review has other forums more appropriate to your style of photography and gear. Thanks for stopping by, however. See you on the other side.

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Fletch147
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Re: New camera dillusion........D4, D800....BS!
In reply to RBFresno, May 11, 2012

Lots of good replies here......and for me the D3S raised the bar for a while to come.....hence the massive over pricing of the D4......£5300 in the UK is stupid money......why does Nikon charge this silly price?? Because they can...and people will pay it.

I just want somebody to post just ONE image that makes me go....WOOOOW! Now the D3s couldn't do that! Just one......if not, then the D3S is good enough......

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Jonathan. (Fletch)

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Fletch147
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Re: based on your history...
In reply to faterikcartman, May 11, 2012

faterikcartman wrote:

Fletch147 wrote:

TOR8472 wrote:

Based on your camera buy / sell / upgrade / downgrade history, I guessing this is a note to yourself trying to convince yourself you don't need to upgrade again?

I don't have a D800, so I'm not offended in the slightest by your post, I'm just wondering how long it will be before I read a post from you saying that you are buying a D800...

Fair point..and I can take a dig BUT IF I was to get a new camera NOW....it would be D700 or 5D MK2.

Or even less......the more I use ALL these cameras.....(for me) I realise the cheap ones do just as good a job regarding IQ

who knows...next time I post I may be on the mobile phone forum lol

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Cheers,

Jonathan. (Fletch)

From this and your original post it sounds like you only publish images to the web, or maybe small prints. For such usage the 5Dmk2 and D700 are a waste of money. Take the advice above and buy a used D70 or Canon equivalent. Frankly, something like a Canon S100 would probably give you the most bang for the buck and complete photographic satisfaction.

It is refreshing to see a poster take an honest assessment of their usage and needs and realize that for their limited requirements they are much better off buying less expensive gear. What you may not have realized is that DP Review has other forums more appropriate to your style of photography and gear. Thanks for stopping by, however. See you on the other side.

Again....very fair point
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Jonathan. (Fletch)

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Fletch147
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Re: New camera dillusion........D4, D800....BS!
In reply to Mitchydkid, May 11, 2012

Mitchydkid wrote:
My Corvette can go around corners very fast.

Now I know you're lying!! American car's cannot corner fast!! lol

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Jonathan. (Fletch)

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faterikcartman
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Re: New camera dillusion........D4, D800....BS!
In reply to Fletch147, May 11, 2012

Fletch147 wrote:

Lots of good replies here......and for me the D3S raised the bar for a while to come.....hence the massive over pricing of the D4......£5300 in the UK is stupid money......why does Nikon charge this silly price?? Because they can...and people will pay it.

I just want somebody to post just ONE image that makes me go....WOOOOW! Now the D3s couldn't do that! Just one......if not, then the D3S is good enough......

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Jonathan. (Fletch)

Fletch, I'm not sure you understand -- which is okay. In addition to things like increased dynamic range, which you probably wouldn't notice yourself, the D800 is for large size prints. We can't show you those on the internet and it doesn't seem you appreciate you are able to appreciate and extrapolate from the crops and examples people post. As I said above, there are other forums where you would feel right at home. But please keep enjoying the hobby!

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rrichie
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Re: New camera dillusion........D4, D800....BS!
In reply to Fletch147, May 11, 2012

.....i dont know how to say it but if you're not impressed with

http://500px.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=d800

you really can't be impressed with any other camera ever made.
Stop trolling.

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MartynD2oo
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Re: New camera dillusion........D4, D800....BS!
In reply to Fletch147, May 11, 2012
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Fletch147
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Re: New camera dillusion........D4, D800....BS!
In reply to faterikcartman, May 11, 2012

faterikcartman wrote:

Fletch147 wrote:

Lots of good replies here......and for me the D3S raised the bar for a while to come.....hence the massive over pricing of the D4......£5300 in the UK is stupid money......why does Nikon charge this silly price?? Because they can...and people will pay it.

I just want somebody to post just ONE image that makes me go....WOOOOW! Now the D3s couldn't do that! Just one......if not, then the D3S is good enough......

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Cheers,

Jonathan. (Fletch)

Fletch, I'm not sure you understand -- which is okay. In addition to things like increased dynamic range, which you probably wouldn't notice yourself, the D800 is for large size prints. We can't show you those on the internet and it doesn't seem you appreciate you are able to appreciate and extrapolate from the crops and examples people post. As I said above, there are other forums where you would feel right at home. But please keep enjoying the hobby!

No you're right......I don't understand.....I take pictures. And decent ones thank you

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Jonathan. (Fletch)

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Fletch147
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Re: New camera dillusion........D4, D800....BS!
In reply to MartynD2oo, May 11, 2012

MartynD2oo wrote:

I bet this reaches 150
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Please LIKE my page 8-))
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Martyn-Wilkes-Photography/134057003306205

Oh I know mate! Lots of bitter photographers....I mean snapshot takers here

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Jonathan. (Fletch)

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Fletch147
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And STILL!
In reply to Fletch147, May 11, 2012

Nobody can show me 1 image that a d700 / d3s can't do
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Luke Kaven
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Re: Luke....
In reply to Fletch147, May 11, 2012

Fletch147 wrote:

Luke Kaven wrote:

I think that one day with these two cameras would change your mind. I see a lot of things that the D800 can do, even at web size, that its predecessors could not do.

Then PLEASE show me..... a link at least?

Hi Jonathan,

Having these cameras in hand would give you a direct comparison in your own workflow in a way that would make it more obvious to you. The same things can be seen in pictures here on the forum, but you would need to direct your attention to the key differences.

The first principle is this:

A native 12MP sensor cannot entirely fill the 12MP sampling space equally at all frequencies. The total MTF of a 12MP sensor is limited in the high frequencies by at least (i) a strong AA filter, and (ii) bayer demosaicking. The frequency response of the 12MP sensor rolls off sharply before the nyquist limit.

A native 36MP sensor, when downsasmpled to, say, 12MP displays a total MTF that is much higher in the upper frequencies, and more evenly fills the 12MP sampling space.

The result? In the downsampled D800 output, you will see a higher level of detail in the upper frequencies, up near the limit of the output size, even at web size. Look at the fine detail at those frequencies -- the hair, the skin texture, the twigs and leaves. Notice also that faces that take up only a small part of the frame are still detailed in the eyes and have recognizable expressions.

Here's an experiment that Lloyd Chambers did a long time ago, when he first got his D3x. He compared the output between his D3, and his D3x at matching sizes. Notice how the high frequencies in the D3 output are missing, making the text look fragmented? Notice how the D3x output still looks (mostly) rounded and smooth? That is a concrete demonstration of the difference, a difference which is carried even further in the 36MP sensor.

Seeing it?

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