So no 'real' mirrorless from Leica...

Started May 10, 2012 | Discussions
szlevi
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So no 'real' mirrorless from Leica...
May 10, 2012

...just several pathetically outdated and laughably overpriced hardware - Monochrome as niche, seriously? 320k LCD in 2012? APS-C as "premium large sensor"? A 50/2 for $7k+?
And this is following years of development, with EVF borrowed from Olympus...?

Seriously, I do not understand how will Leica survive with these failed attempts.

I thought they will release something competitive, modern system around $2k-$3k that might actually make people think about it, just to disrupt the mirrorless market.

...I guess the future of Fuji, Olympus etc remain more than safe because apparently Leica have completely lost the connection with the real world.

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Martin Ocando
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I was thinking the same
In reply to szlevi, May 10, 2012

After several years developing, or at least consulting, for Panasonic, a few lenses wearing the LEICA name on them, why not developing a camera for the m43? Contract restrictions? Maybe

szlevi wrote:

...just several pathetically outdated and laughably overpriced hardware - Monochrome as niche, seriously? 320k LCD in 2012? APS-C as "premium large sensor"? A 50/2 for $7k+?
And this is following years of development, with EVF borrowed from Olympus...?

Seriously, I do not understand how will Leica survive with these failed attempts.

I thought they will release something competitive, modern system around $2k-$3k that might actually make people think about it, just to disrupt the mirrorless market.

...I guess the future of Fuji, Olympus etc remain more than safe because apparently Leica have completely lost the connection with the real world.

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Aleo Veuliah
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Re: The fact is ...
In reply to szlevi, May 10, 2012

szlevi wrote:

...just several pathetically outdated and laughably overpriced hardware - Monochrome as niche, seriously? 320k LCD in 2012? APS-C as "premium large sensor"? A 50/2 for $7k+?
And this is following years of development, with EVF borrowed from Olympus...?

Seriously, I do not understand how will Leica survive with these failed attempts.

I thought they will release something competitive, modern system around $2k-$3k that might actually make people think about it, just to disrupt the mirrorless market.

...I guess the future of Fuji, Olympus etc remain more than safe because apparently Leica have completely lost the connection with the real world.

  • The fact is that Leica survived and are going to survive for many years, some buy Leica for collection, others for status, but there are true Leica lovers that don't buy it for that reasons, they are not cameras for all of us, but they are superb

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Aleo Veuliah
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Re: I was thinking the same
In reply to Martin Ocando, May 10, 2012

Martin Ocando wrote:

After several years developing, or at least consulting, for Panasonic, a few lenses wearing the LEICA name on them, why not developing a camera for the m43? Contract restrictions? Maybe

I think that is not any of those reasons, they just have not yet wanted to do a Micro 4/3 cameras, for that they also need to develop new lenses, and from what I read Leica prefers bigger sensors, or maybe they think that is to much competition for them, let's see, also Fuji a Micro 4/3 member did not have made any Micro 4/3 camera

szlevi wrote:

...just several pathetically outdated and laughably overpriced hardware - Monochrome as niche, seriously? 320k LCD in 2012? APS-C as "premium large sensor"? A 50/2 for $7k+?
And this is following years of development, with EVF borrowed from Olympus...?

Seriously, I do not understand how will Leica survive with these failed attempts.

I thought they will release something competitive, modern system around $2k-$3k that might actually make people think about it, just to disrupt the mirrorless market.

...I guess the future of Fuji, Olympus etc remain more than safe because apparently Leica have completely lost the connection with the real world.

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God is the tangential point between zero and infinity.

Imagination is more important than knowledge.

God always take the simplest way.

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szlevi
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Re: The faRt is ...
In reply to Aleo Veuliah, May 10, 2012

...you got more empty clichés ready-to-deploy than anyone I know around here.

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szlevi
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Re: I was thinking the same
In reply to Martin Ocando, May 10, 2012

Or at least APS-C? It is definitely werid but I doubt there is any contractual excuse behind this - it's just the good -ol' 'buuble effect', when they really lost touch with the outer world, I see this at long-running companies all the time.

The results are usually ugly - even though everybody see it long time coming their tunnel vision makes them blind, they usually only recognize clear and present danger, when it's very hard to turn around and costs a lot more.

Martin Ocando wrote:

After several years developing, or at least consulting, for Panasonic, a few lenses wearing the LEICA name on them, why not developing a camera for the m43? Contract restrictions? Maybe

szlevi wrote:

...just several pathetically outdated and laughably overpriced hardware - Monochrome as niche, seriously? 320k LCD in 2012? APS-C as "premium large sensor"? A 50/2 for $7k+?
And this is following years of development, with EVF borrowed from Olympus...?

Seriously, I do not understand how will Leica survive with these failed attempts.

I thought they will release something competitive, modern system around $2k-$3k that might actually make people think about it, just to disrupt the mirrorless market.

...I guess the future of Fuji, Olympus etc remain more than safe because apparently Leica have completely lost the connection with the real world.

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dpalugyay
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But it says Leica in big letters on the viewfinder...
In reply to szlevi, May 10, 2012

So that everyone can see you like to throw around money so you must be really rich.

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szlevi
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Re: I was thinking the same
In reply to Aleo Veuliah, May 10, 2012

1. Please start using proper punctuation marks
2. Please start using proper sentences

3. They just released an APS-C camera, they had everything at their disposal for a very nice mirrorless...

Aleo Veuliah wrote:

Martin Ocando wrote:

After several years developing, or at least consulting, for Panasonic, a few lenses wearing the LEICA name on them, why not developing a camera for the m43? Contract restrictions? Maybe

I think that is not any of those reasons, they just have not yet wanted to do a Micro 4/3 cameras, for that they also need to develop new lenses, and from what I read Leica prefers bigger sensors, or maybe they think that is to much competition for them, let's see, also Fuji a Micro 4/3 member did not have made any Micro 4/3 camera

szlevi wrote:

...just several pathetically outdated and laughably overpriced hardware - Monochrome as niche, seriously? 320k LCD in 2012? APS-C as "premium large sensor"? A 50/2 for $7k+?
And this is following years of development, with EVF borrowed from Olympus...?

Seriously, I do not understand how will Leica survive with these failed attempts.

I thought they will release something competitive, modern system around $2k-$3k that might actually make people think about it, just to disrupt the mirrorless market.

...I guess the future of Fuji, Olympus etc remain more than safe because apparently Leica have completely lost the connection with the real world.

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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

God is the tangential point between zero and infinity.

Imagination is more important than knowledge.

God always take the simplest way.

-- hide signature --

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(Now you cannot say I don't have a single pic! :P)

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Peter Nelson
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szlevi: So no 'real' mirrorless from Leica...
In reply to szlevi, May 10, 2012

Leica has alway's been mirrorless. I did not care for your opinions and I want you to come to understand this. You sound like a spoiled child, just how old are you anyway? I'd guess around 22yrs old.

If you actually had a Leica, which (BTW I do have 2 Leica's) then maybe your eyes would open up and see why people like them just the way they are.

One thing is clear to me you are uninformed. Leica is at first and foremost a lens manufacturing company. The original Leitz factory was founded around 1888 in Wetzlar Germany and they were among the world leaders in microscope manufacturing. The Leica cameras are made as an instrument to mount these lenses.

Leica photographers like to keep things simple and these M camera are just what they want. They use their own knowledge to get the images not computerized tools. Did you know that it was a Leica employee that invented 35mm cameras and it was Leica that invented Auto Focus? Leica deemed that the people who used their cameras had no need for AF and hence they sold it to Minalta, who in turn came out with the worlds first AF cameras using the Leica technology.
Leiuca does not need "pupies" like you. In fact you do not deserve a Leica.

A 256K LCD screen is working just fine on my Olympus E-P1 so I do not agree with you or DPR on that one.

szlevi wrote:

...just several pathetically outdated and laughably overpriced hardware - Monochrome as niche, seriously? 320k LCD in 2012? APS-C as "premium large sensor"? A 50/2 for $7k+?
And this is following years of development, with EVF borrowed from Olympus...?

Seriously, I do not understand how will Leica survive with these failed attempts.

I thought they will release something competitive, modern system around $2k-$3k that might actually make people think about it, just to disrupt the mirrorless market.

...I guess the future of Fuji, Olympus etc remain more than safe because apparently Leica have completely lost the connection with the real world.

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szlevi
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I got that but...
In reply to dpalugyay, May 10, 2012

...just how big is that market, seriously? I understand that their profit is growing but that's mostly from lenses and professional systems if I recall their last Q correctly.

I mean you can keep ripping off people with more money than brain, that's fine but you need stable revenue from volume sales to cover your rising R&D costs - and within the rich it's an even smaller subset of loonies who can be ripped off TWICE or 3X raped from behind by selling them another outdated Monochrome crap for more than the already overpriced color one...

...just how big is this market? Last year they enjoyed a nice bump but they had the V-Lux and the M-9P wasn't 3 years old technology minus color filter... the V-Lux 3 is a decent compact superzoom but that's becoming another niche nowadays especially for almost $1k.

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DRabbit
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You sound like a fan-boy...
In reply to Peter Nelson, May 10, 2012

And don't take it as an insult. I'm a Leica Fan-Girl

However, while I'll give them some credit for a gutsy B&W-only move (which may prove to be something quite special... time will tell), the X2 "upgrade" is rather sad.

Though, I will say this: It is interesting that Olympus was the EVF "partner" in the X2. Makes me wonder what they may announce in the future (photokina?) with regards to mirrorless. A combined effort from Olympus and Leica might prove interesting (especially to me since I'm a big fan of both - LOL!)

Rumors for a while have said their M10 and "Mirrorless" announcement wouldn't come until Photokina. There were no surprises here today, except that the X2 failed to deliver on some of the upgrades Leica users wanted.

szlevi: Do keep in mind, the M8 was mirrorless back in 2007. I know that isn't what you meant exactly, but rangefinders, by their nature, are already mirrorless.

And even as a fan-girl... their prices keep going up and up and up and up. Unless they do offer some affordable m4/3-like camera, the M8 is likely the last Leica I'll own. Sad

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dotborg
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If it wasn't for the cost...
In reply to szlevi, May 10, 2012

...I would love to have that M Monochrom (even though they misspelled it).

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But a real bold step
In reply to szlevi, May 10, 2012

It isnt simple bringing a nice product to market. I hope they are rewarded with good sales.

Ab

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TEBnewyork
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Re: So no 'real' mirrorless from Leica...
In reply to szlevi, May 10, 2012

Three things:

1)Leica is doing quite well right now and had a big investment from a private equity firm recently in order to expand.

2)Leica generally does their biggest product announcements at Photokina which is a few months away.

3)Right now Leica is pretty severely capacity constrained. Try and find stock on pretty much any lens and they are sold out. Adding another camera line at the moment may not be the best answer.

Here is an excellent writeup and samples from the Monochrom from a contributor on these forums

http://www.slack.co.uk/slack/Monochrom.html

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chiane
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Re: szlevi: So no 'real' mirrorless from Leica...
In reply to Peter Nelson, May 10, 2012

Peter Nelson wrote:

Leica has alway's been mirrorless. I did not care for your opinions and I want you to come to understand this. You sound like a spoiled child, just how old are you anyway? I'd guess around 22yrs old.

If you actually had a Leica, which (BTW I do have 2 Leica's) then maybe your eyes would open up and see why people like them just the way they are.

One thing is clear to me you are uninformed. Leica is at first and foremost a lens manufacturing company. The original Leitz factory was founded around 1888 in Wetzlar Germany and they were among the world leaders in microscope manufacturing. The Leica cameras are made as an instrument to mount these lenses.

Leica photographers like to keep things simple and these M camera are just what they want. They use their own knowledge to get the images not computerized tools. Did you know that it was a Leica employee that invented 35mm cameras and it was Leica that invented Auto Focus? Leica deemed that the people who used their cameras had no need for AF and hence they sold it to Minalta, who in turn came out with the worlds first AF cameras using the Leica technology.
Leiuca does not need "pupies" like you. In fact you do not deserve a Leica.

A 256K LCD screen is working just fine on my Olympus E-P1 so I do not agree with you or DPR on that one.

szlevi wrote:

...just several pathetically outdated and laughably overpriced hardware - Monochrome as niche, seriously? 320k LCD in 2012? APS-C as "premium large sensor"? A 50/2 for $7k+?
And this is following years of development, with EVF borrowed from Olympus...?

Seriously, I do not understand how will Leica survive with these failed attempts.

I thought they will release something competitive, modern system around $2k-$3k that might actually make people think about it, just to disrupt the mirrorless market.

...I guess the future of Fuji, Olympus etc remain more than safe because apparently Leica have completely lost the connection with the real world.

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Well I guess as long as your screen that was relevant 5 years ago still works, why change anything? You have to be like 70 years old and watch a tube tv, because it still works.

The problem with your argument is that if Leica actually put something like a 'modern' screen on their new 2012 camera instead of finding the last remaining supply of them from '07 in some warehouse, it wouldn't hurt your photo's one bit. And I know change is a bad word, but it might actually make your shooting experience better, not just good enough.

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TrapperJohn
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Ah, Leica was mirrorless
In reply to szlevi, May 11, 2012

long before mirrorless was cool.

The mono body is most interesting - should yield some phenomenal detail and contrast. Only Leica owners would truly appreciate what M glass + a mono only body can produce.

And their glass... ever used Leica M on a M43 body? Or even the PL25 in a portrait setting? If you have, then you know why Leica still exists, and will continue to exist for some time.

I'm not saying that Leica is worth the money. It's like a very expensive wine. Rich in subtle detail, and a taste that it might be financially wise not to acquire.

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Marla
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Re: If it wasn't for the cost...yep.....
In reply to dotborg, May 11, 2012

dotborg wrote:

...I would love to have that M Monochrom (even though they misspelled it).

I would too! At any rate, it gives me hope that just maybe a b&w digital camera might be in the not-too-distant future at a cost that does NOT take your breath away!

Maybe a Pana-Leica?

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szlevi
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Re: szlevi: So no 'real' mirrorless from Leica...
In reply to Peter Nelson, May 11, 2012

Oh noes... someone invoking the "Lecia magic dust" explanation while simultaneously waving his e-peeeeenis with his two Leicas hanging underneath... is seriously calling me a child?

Priceless, that is.
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Peter Nelson wrote:

Leica has alway's been mirrorless. I did not care for your opinions and I want you to come to understand this. You sound like a spoiled child, just how old are you anyway? I'd guess around 22yrs old.

If you actually had a Leica, which (BTW I do have 2 Leica's) then maybe your eyes would open up and see why people like them just the way they are.

One thing is clear to me you are uninformed. Leica is at first and foremost a lens manufacturing company. The original Leitz factory was founded around 1888 in Wetzlar Germany and they were among the world leaders in microscope manufacturing. The Leica cameras are made as an instrument to mount these lenses.

Leica photographers like to keep things simple and these M camera are just what they want. They use their own knowledge to get the images not computerized tools. Did you know that it was a Leica employee that invented 35mm cameras and it was Leica that invented Auto Focus? Leica deemed that the people who used their cameras had no need for AF and hence they sold it to Minalta, who in turn came out with the worlds first AF cameras using the Leica technology.
Leiuca does not need "pupies" like you. In fact you do not deserve a Leica.

A 256K LCD screen is working just fine on my Olympus E-P1 so I do not agree with you or DPR on that one.

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TEBnewyork
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Re: szlevi: So no 'real' mirrorless from Leica...
In reply to szlevi, May 11, 2012

For someone who hasn't been around this forum very long you certainly have learned to be mean and nasty (on virtually every post) very quickly.
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szlevi
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Re: szlevi: So no 'real' mirrorless from Leica...
In reply to TEBnewyork, May 11, 2012

I don't think I'm any worse than the average top posters sans few sane people here... however I'm usually reasonable: when you jumped on me last time during one of your thinly disguised anti-Olympus (s)trolling attempt I didn't take you seriously either - it's a forum and it only allows very limited editing.

FWIW I'm hardly new to the scene - I started on 8600 baud and private BBSes long before http://www became actually useful (heck, I even used Mosaic back then)... I tend to call a spade a spade, that's all.

TEBnewyork wrote:

For someone who hasn't been around this forum very long you certainly have learned to be mean and nasty (on virtually every post) very quickly.
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