The 5D2e

Started May 10, 2012 | Discussions
pcassel
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The 5D2e
May 10, 2012

I'm intrigued with the Nikon D800e, but have no interest in swapping my Canon gear for Nikon. My 5D2 is just fine for me, but the lack of an AA filter interests me greatly.

I shoot landscapes almost exclusively so the issue of the moire patterns is moot for the most part. If it were to show up, I'll deal with it in CS. I'd rather deal with the occasional moire pattern than deal with an overall smudged image smudged just in case one of these patterns may be present if the smudging didn't occur.

Anyway, has anybody experience removing the AA filter from the 5D2? Tips, tricks, traps? Who might do this surgery on my 5D2? I surely don't feel up to it unless it's really child's play. I have no idea what it'd entail.

TIA
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-paul

GordonAtWork
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Re: The 5D2e
In reply to pcassel, May 10, 2012

One thing to bear in mind is that you would need to replace the AA filter with a piece of plain optical glass. I think it has to do with the light path to the sensor, also for protection too.
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Victor Engel
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Re: The 5D2e
In reply to pcassel, May 10, 2012

There are a couple of companies that do it. The only one that comes immediately to mind is maxmax.com.
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kewlguy
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Re: The 5D2e
In reply to pcassel, May 11, 2012

both filters in front of the sensor are not only antialiasing, but also filtering the IR, I think they are called Low Pass Filter 1 and 2. So not only you need to replace them with clear glass (so the AF still works) - you also need a UV/IR cut filter.

Besides, IMO 5D2's AA filter is weak enough. I also have an M9, but I think 5D2 files are just excellent if I use the right lenses.

just my 2 cents

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chrismosk
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Re: The 5D2e
In reply to kewlguy, May 11, 2012

funny you guys are talking about this. I'm thinking about doing this to my 1ds mk III. I just dont' know if it is worth it.

as Vic says, maxmax.com does it, it isn't cheap, but they are so close I can drop it off. I'm tempted.

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Peter 13
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Re: The 5D2e
In reply to pcassel, May 11, 2012

pcassel wrote:

I shoot landscapes almost exclusively so the issue of the moire patterns is moot for the most part.

Moire is just one manifestation of aliasing. Aliasing in landscapes can be ugly as well. Just look at the D800E landscape example in Nikon's own site.

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pcassel
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Re: The 5D2e
In reply to pcassel, May 14, 2012

OK, thanks guys, and sorry for the delay in replying. I got distracted by off line life there for a few days.

As to the Nikon landscape shots with the e, I didn't see anything disturbing. Can you, Peter 13, please point out what the defect(s) is / are?

I don't plan on this surgery myself. I would have liked to have heard or know of someone who has done this and what the result was.

Yes, I knew that you also need filtration which isn't AA. I've heard of folks who are dedicated IR snappers who remove that filter or have it done.

Victor - that's for the tip on the vendor.
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Peter 13
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Re: The 5D2e
In reply to pcassel, May 14, 2012

pcassel wrote:

As to the Nikon landscape shots with the e, I didn't see anything disturbing. Can you, Peter 13, please point out what the defect(s) is / are?

I cannot find the sample images on the Nikon website.

The AA filter is not an evil that Nikon found a way to fight. It is a necessity. No AA filter helps with softer lenses, indeed. But with sharp lenses, and a lot of detail, it would create aliasing. Not just moire. Ironically, exactly when you need more resolution and did everything to achieve it (lens, tripod, etc.), the no AA filter sensor will create problems. Funny that Nikon suggests defocusing and diffraction softening to fight moire but they are numb about aliasing in general.

http://www.nikonusa.com/Learn-And-Explore/Nikon-Camera-Technology/gy43mjgu/1/Moire-and-False-Color.html

From what I have seen, the D800 (no E) has the perfect combination of resolution and AA filter. If I have to decide among the two, I would definitely get the D800.

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pcassel
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Re: The 5D2e
In reply to Peter 13, May 15, 2012

Since this is Nikon rather than Harry's Screendoor and Camera Company, I can't believe that the 800e would be as bad as you say or that we'd see jaggies using even the best g lenses with that camera. I feel confirmation of this when you make these claims first saying you saw Nikon sample images showing these flaws but now you can't point to any of them.

The 800e samples I saw looked great. IMO, as the rez increases, the need for the AA filter decreases.
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Peter 13
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Re: The 5D2e
In reply to pcassel, May 15, 2012

pcassel wrote:

Since this is Nikon rather than Harry's Screendoor and Camera Company, I can't believe that the 800e would be as bad as you say or that we'd see jaggies using even the best g lenses with that camera.

What part of this don't you understand?

[Nikon] Slight increase in sharpness and resolution with increased occurrence of false color and moiré

I feel confirmation of this when you make these claims first saying you saw Nikon sample images showing these flaws but now you can't point to any of them.

Hmmm, how about this - if they removed those images, this may be confirming something that you do not want to hear. It is not like we have not seen 15mp APS-C cameras before.

The image I had in mind is the winter landscape here:

http://www.nikonusa.com/Learn-And-Explore/Nikon-Camera-Technology/gy43mjgu/1/Moire-and-False-Color.html

You see a crop here only but I found parts of the whole image very ugly. This was discussed here as well.

Do you think that Nikon is such a great company that it can defeat the laws of nature?

The 800e samples I saw looked great. IMO, as the rez increases, the need for the AA filter decreases.

The pixel density of the D800e is far below what is needed for removing the AA filter.

If you need examples - there is another active thread here, and many more on the Nikon own site.

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pcassel
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Re: The 5D2e
In reply to Peter 13, May 16, 2012

My style would work with MF or LF cameras which is the style that Nikon (at the site you gave me) recommends so that sort of reinforces my thoughts about the AA filter. As to the kimono showing a pattern, I am not worried about it because I don't shoot kimonos or other similar patterns. If I were to, I could fix the pattern in post or just not let it worry me. If i were shooting textiles and shooting for accurate reproduction of them, I'd either use the 800 or film anyway.

Thanks for your comments but the example you gave only reinforced that if I were to switch to Nikon, the e would be the 800 for me.
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Peter 13
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Re: The 5D2e
In reply to pcassel, May 16, 2012

Nikon is not telling you the whole story. You will get aliasing, and moire is just a special case of it.

You cannot just look at several examples and dismiss the science behind it.

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carlk
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Re: The 5D2e
In reply to Peter 13, May 16, 2012

Peter please don't spread the misinformation. Check luminous Landscape reviews to find out what they say about D800E.

Peter 13 wrote:

pcassel wrote:

I shoot landscapes almost exclusively so the issue of the moire patterns is moot for the most part.

Moire is just one manifestation of aliasing. Aliasing in landscapes can be ugly as well. Just look at the D800E landscape example in Nikon's own site.

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Peter 13
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Re: The 5D2e
In reply to carlk, May 16, 2012

carlk wrote:

Peter please don't spread the misinformation. Check luminous Landscape reviews to find out what they say about D800E.

How did you decide who is spreading misinformation?

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carlk
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Re: The 5D2e
In reply to Peter 13, May 16, 2012

So what you think is the purpose for Nikon to lie? They want to have many disgruntled customers later who found their D800E is not good? It's not like Nikon can't sell all the D800 they could make without going through this trouble.

You can stick with your science but many of the best landscape photographers were shooting without AA filter even before D800E came out.

Peter 13 wrote:

Nikon is not telling you the whole story. You will get aliasing, and moire is just a special case of it.

You cannot just look at several examples and dismiss the science behind it.

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carlk
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Re: The 5D2e
In reply to Peter 13, May 16, 2012

Peter 13 wrote:

pcassel wrote:

I shoot landscapes almost exclusively so the issue of the moire patterns is moot for the most part.

Moire is just one manifestation of aliasing. Aliasing in landscapes can be ugly as well. Just look at the D800E landscape example in Nikon's own site.

Deleted. Meant to reply your other post.

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carlk
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Re: The 5D2e
In reply to Peter 13, May 16, 2012

Peter 13 wrote:

carlk wrote:

Peter please don't spread the misinformation. Check luminous Landscape reviews to find out what they say about D800E.

How did you decide who is spreading misinformation?

Isn't it pretty obvious now?

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Peter 13
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Re: The 5D2e
In reply to carlk, May 16, 2012

carlk wrote:

So what you think is the purpose for Nikon to lie?

You have been around for long enough to know that there are many flavors of lying, misleading, etc.

They want to have many disgruntled customers later who found their D800E is not good? It's not like Nikon can't sell all the D800 they could make without going through this trouble.

No, they will have many satisfied customers who will enjoy aliased images. Fake detail sells, just ask your friend Daniel.

You can stick with your science but many of the best landscape photographers were shooting without AA filter even before D800E came out.

If you stop enough enough, you will be fine. You do not strike me as a landscape photographer however. For general use, the D800E is a mistake, and Nikon says so between the lines.

I finally found the image I was talking about, see below. The aliasing hurts my eyes, see the bottom of the image. Many will enjoy it though.

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carlk
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Re: The 5D2e
In reply to Peter 13, May 16, 2012

Your true color is showing. It's pure camera bashing without any merits. Name a camera I can find a real bad image for you but showing that to bash a camera is just ridiculous.

Here are a couple links of LL's article comparing D800/D800E. "Yes Virginia – cameras without AA filters are capable of resolving more than cameras with them, and in the case of the D800 and D800E, which are identical with the exception of the AA filter, we have proof of that pudding." Should we believe them or should we believe "Peter says he sees a bad picture without AA"? You do whatever you want.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/nikon_d800_d800e_first_comparison.shtml

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/nikon_d800__e_initial_impressions.shtml

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Peter 13
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Re: The 5D2e
In reply to carlk, May 16, 2012

carlk wrote:

Your true color is showing. It's pure camera bashing without any merits.

Name a camera I can find a real bad image for you but showing that to bash a camera is just ridiculous.

So you agree that the image is bad? You have just one step more to go - to understand why.

Here are a couple links of LL's article comparing D800/D800E. "Yes Virginia – cameras without AA filters are capable of resolving more than cameras with them,

Of course, it is capable of resolving more. It is also capable of more aliasing. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

and in the case of the D800 and D800E, which are identical with the exception of the AA filter, we have proof of that pudding." Should we believe them or should we believe "Peter says he sees a bad picture without AA"? You do whatever you want.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/nikon_d800_d800e_first_comparison.shtml

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/nikon_d800__e_initial_impressions.shtml

What does this prove? I can easily find and post here 10 links of people who actually known what they are talking about and explain why AA filters are used, etc.

I told you, there will be many happy customers. Nikon are right. Whatever sells.

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