HOW disappointed are you?

Started May 10, 2012 | Discussions
villagranvicent
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Re: HOW disappointed are you?
In reply to Ray1684, May 10, 2012

I was on the same dilemma a few weeks ago, about getting an X1 with the OVF, or getting a MFT, so I went with the later, now I am the happy owner of a new GF1 (I like it more than the Gf2 or GF3) with EVF and 20mm 1.7, 14-45mm zoom, plus a very nice Minolta MD 50mm f1.4 with adapter. ALL for $1000dlls. :)) I can still get a mint X100 and spare some change of those initial $2000!!

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Gary H
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Re: HOW disappointed are you?
In reply to Michael S., May 10, 2012

X-100, NEX-7 and lots of leica 35mm and Mamiya/Bronica MF gear. Not disappointed at all. In fact, I'm happy with my choices.

September we will see their main offering, the M-10 and compact interchangeable lens camera system. They need to get both of these right and while they work, Fujifilm and Sony are doing the same.

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zigorus
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Re: HOW disappointed are you?
In reply to Michael S., May 10, 2012

Michael S. wrote:

Honestly?

The same body, same layout, just little (if at all!) modified AF-module, same old LCD, same f2.8 lens - all that already not state of the art way back in 2009 - and now in 2012 your are satisfied for a list price of $1,995.00?

Puh...I am calling myself a LEICA nerd...but...

not sure i understand. the X1 has always made excellent photos and has the best control layout of any fixed lens camera around. they've put in a new sensor and added the ability to use an EVF. Leica improved the function–making photos–on an already excellent camera without changing the things that make it excellent. that seems great to me.

price is irrelevant, it is what it is. the X1 at a similar price has sold steadily to those who appreciate what it is. it's not all things for all users, it appeals to a specific audience just like the Sigma fovean compacts.

z

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liquid stereo
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In reply to Michael S., May 10, 2012

They had a banner announcement!

Michael S. wrote:

Ok...

1) so a X2 with NOT a 50mm equivalent f1.4 lens - same old body, same old (good, but f2.8) lens, an ugly EVF optional...and same old low resolution LCD...oh boy.

So for sure NOT an X100, OM-D, X-PRO 1 and so on "killer".

2) M9-M - same body, same layout, same old low resolution LCD - just an monochrome version of the (old?) sensor.

A niche product for sure...

For me - as you can imagine from what above has been written - disapointing at all fronts.

So HOPEFULLY the PHOTOKINA 2012 with M10, the announced mirrorless, interchangeable lenses solution will give LEICA products that they can sell in large amounts to keep LEICA in business - with that products today announced I believe they can't be competitive...

;-(

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BRJR
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Re: "HOW disappointed are you?" (I am Not At All Disappointed)
In reply to Michael S., May 10, 2012

First of all, since two years now, I have had all the Leica gear I want (all, listed in my profile); and, secondly, I can see potential use for a lot of people wiith the new monochrome digital-m (especially, Leica film shooters that have held onto or purchased leica-m film bodies mainly for shooting black and white), and for all the other stuff that Leica presented today. None of this stuff is something that I am interested in or have use for; but at the same time, they appear to all be excellent products that will continue to help Leica expand, attract new customers and remain profitable.
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DRabbit
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Re: HOW disappointed are you?
In reply to Ray1684, May 11, 2012

Ray1684 wrote:

The Leica X2 announcement was a total let down. I think if they had updated the screen I would've been a bit more contempt but at 230k, it's absolutely disgraceful. I was looking forward to dropping $2k on their new X series but now I might need to look elsewhere, perhaps an M43 system (not X100, sold that after 3 months). Will still wait on reports on the X2's AF system but I doubt it will be technologically advanced either.

I'm on the waiting list for the OM-D myself, but did recently buy the x100, which is just a fantastic fun little camera (what the Leica-X series should have been). I know a lot of people were frustrated with it, but the latest firmware REALLY speeds things up. I'd venture a guess to say it's now the camera it should have been on release. Plus, prices are dropping.

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DRabbit
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Re: "HOW disappointed are you?" (I am Not At All Disappointed)
In reply to BRJR, May 11, 2012

BRJR wrote:

First of all, since two years now, I have had all the Leica gear I want (all, listed in my profile); and, secondly, I can see potential use for a lot of people wiith the new monochrome digital-m (especially, Leica film shooters that have held onto or purchased leica-m film bodies mainly for shooting black and white), and for all the other stuff that Leica presented today. None of this stuff is something that I am interested in or have use for; but at the same time, they appear to all be excellent products that will continue to help Leica expand, attract new customers and remain profitable.

I've got a friend on Facebook who is a die-hard Leica film shooter. If anyone was going to be excited about this, it would have been him, so I thought. He thinks the price-point is just mind-numbing, bat-poo, crazy. I'm paraphrasing.

You'd have to shoot a whole lot of B&W film to make up for an $8K cost. I pay about $2 per roll (and develop it myself). I'd have to shoot 4000 rolls, or about 140,000 pictures.

(in 5 years I've shot less than 12,000 photos on my M8 for some comparison - LOL)

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South Bird
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Re: "HOW disappointed are you?" (I am Not At All Disappointed)
In reply to BRJR, May 11, 2012

I am perplexed. Hyping a reconfiguration of old products without a significant upgrade of the weak features (LCD screens, etc.) is not a wise marketing move. Moreover, the Monochrome and a $7,200 summicron demonstrate that Leica is looking backward and at a very small niche within the already small existing Leica community.

How different the reaction and financial future would be if they took the legendary image quality of the sensor without the anti-aliasing filter and the superb lenses into a more progressive delivery package with a great LCD and improved DR and low light capabilities. There would be excitement and existing customers, as well as new ones, would be looking at getting into the system.

These releases show a re-use of old technology to try and flog a few more sales out of the same old products. It is not a good sign for the M-10.

The good news (I guess) is that I will not be tempted to upgrade my M9 if the M10 continues with minimal incremental improvements.

Leica needs some new blood in the development and marketing divisions. Blackstone, no doubt is watching!

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relate2
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Re: "HOW disappointed are you?" (I am Not At All Disappointed)
In reply to South Bird, May 11, 2012

I don't know how they can justify such a low resolution LCD on such an expensive camera.

I guess it is because the target market is more interested in bragging rights of the red dot than being able to see or focus the photo they want to take.
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photoshutter
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Re: "HOW disappointed are you?" (I am Not At All Disappointed)
In reply to relate2, May 11, 2012

Four years and i never complained about LCD on M8, actually, it is always off on preview, to change iso I'm really don't need better LCD in working tool, for pleasure use I have iphone 4..
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Nich0las
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Re: "HOW disappointed are you?" (I am Not At All Disappointed)
In reply to South Bird, May 11, 2012

South Bird wrote:

Leica needs some new blood in the development and marketing divisions. Blackstone, no doubt is watching!

you're forgetting that by reusing the LCD from the M8, body/housing/sensor from the M9 and tripling the price of the 50 cron, they only need to sell 1/10th the quantity for the same profit margin...

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ravinj
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Re: "HOW disappointed are you?" (I am Not At All Disappointed)
In reply to relate2, May 11, 2012

There is no red dot on the M9M.

relate2 wrote:

I guess it is because the target market is more interested in bragging rights of the red dot than being able to see or focus the photo they want to take.
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ravinj
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Re: HOW disappointed are you?
In reply to Michael S., May 11, 2012

Not at all disappointed. M9M seems to be a superb machine targeted at a niche.

For folks who like color (that includes me), the M8 and M9 are already there. Glad to see Leica going their own way.

I agree with Michael R of LL:

"Frankly, it's going to be depressing to read some of the online forums over the next few weeks, where self-proclaimed experts are going to question the raison d'etre of the M Monochrome....."

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Michael S.
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Re: HOW disappointed are you?
In reply to ravinj, May 11, 2012

Greetings!

ravinj wrote:

Not at all disappointed. M9M seems to be a superb machine targeted at a niche.

I wrote that too - it's a niche product BUT still in the same body as way back in 2009 - THAT's what I am disappointed about, no problem that it is monochrome only...whoever want's it (for sure not so many)...

I agree with Michael R of LL:

"Frankly, it's going to be depressing to read some of the online forums over the next few weeks, where self-proclaimed experts are going to question the raison d'etre of the M Monochrome....."

I disagree with Michael Reichmann here and I am NOT proclaiming I am an expert - but it is a fact that both bodies - X2 and M9-M are the old ones, have not been redesigned, upgraded with at least some parts which would come close to be state of the art, at least what's already been technical possible way back in 2009.

So M. Reichmann is mixing things up here - the "needs" of today's photographer is NOT the point - it's what you get is really old technology for still a very high price.

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Sekura Drops
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Re: HOW disappointed are you?
In reply to Michael S., May 11, 2012

I am very dissapointed since Leica was trying to make some noise with 10th of May. So I was almost sure and hoping for a 4/3 killer. Better sensor better IQ better lenses so that I do not have to buy overpopulated OMD. Just waiting for Photokina but not with high hopes after seeing this mess. My hopes for Canon to kill after seeing what GX1 can do is definitely much more higher.

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antoineb
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milking the cow...
In reply to Michael S., May 11, 2012

I agree with you: in terms of PROGRESS, these products spell one word: ZERO.

BUT, in terms of financial returns, these products might be great. For example the Leica MONOCHROM does nothing new. So its development costs must have been very very low. And it uses the same components including the totally dated 230k res display. So here also, a mix of economies of scale in manufacturing, and using components that are so dated they're really cheap, means the cost is very low.

So in terms of financial returns, it sounds pretty good if you can sell for several thousand dollars, a camera whose cost of manufacturing has come massively down, and whose cost of development was near-zero.

For all we know the gross profit per Leica Monochrom must be several thousand, so sell just one thousand of them and it's always good to take.

But for the rest, sure I'm with you, Leica should indeed at some point, come up with something that's a bit more up to date.

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pkincy
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Re: milking the cow...
In reply to antoineb, May 11, 2012

The problem on making a very large profit on a small volume is that business model when out with the Industrial Revolution.

Now you need to scale and volume to run a business.

There certainly is a place for hand made super expensive and high quality gear, but I don't think that Leica can claim that distinction or at least can't claim that much of a distinction any longer.

Ferrari and Rolls Royce are two very exclusive very expensive and very good manufacturers that have maintained their place in the automotive world.

But coming out with a 90's technology automobile with simply their badge on it was not the way they have maintained that status.

Perry

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Irakly Shanidze
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Re: HOW disappointed are you?
In reply to Michael S., May 11, 2012

You are disappointed because nothing that suits your needs came out. Now, watch how monochrome camera sales will defy your prognosis

As to the faster lens for the x2, believe me, making it would not be a problem. However, making it fit your budget definitely would. Leica would not settle for image quality of x100 optics, and meeting standards set even for summicron lenses would push just the optical part beyond $2500. Are you ready for that?
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DRabbit
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Re: HOW disappointed are you?
In reply to Irakly Shanidze, May 11, 2012

Irakly Shanidze wrote:

As to the faster lens for the x2, believe me, making it would not be a problem. However, making it fit your budget definitely would. Leica would not settle for image quality of x100 optics, and meeting standards set even for summicron lenses would push just the optical part beyond $2500. Are you ready for that?

You're kidding, right?

Look, the X1 was/is a camera capable of outstanding imagines. So is the X100 at 1/2 it's price, with a faster, small f/2 lens. Most people are quite happy to say the X100 optics wasn't it's problem, but like the X1, it was focus speed.

Please don't talk about Leica "settling" for lesser quality when they've been happy to rebadged panasonic pocket cameras and 4/3 and m4/3 lenses quite readily. And skimping in other areas doesn't exactly inspired confidence with regards to what they are willing to "settle" on.

I'm as much of a fan-boy (ok girl) as you... I LOVE Leica and will continue to love my M8 long into the future. However, I think the X2 could have been so much better and this upgrade cycle would have been a good opportunity to make it so. They didn't take that opportunity.

Amy
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antoineb
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of course you're right: there is a limit
In reply to pkincy, May 11, 2012

Rolls Royce is a good case in point: there was a time when they kept putting the badge on the cars, but the technology had stayed horribly behind, and their margins were obscenely fat but the cars were looking increasingly ridiculous.

We know how this ended.

So yes, up to a point, milking the cow is a good idea - but one should be careful in determining where "up to a point" lies.

If the past is a good guide however, Leica have never had any shame to come up with "special editions" of various bodies or lenses, typically just before they launched a product which really contained new technology.

So hopefully an advanced camera is being readied, one that will not need much more than 18mp but could use a wider ISO range (and ISO easier to set). And where the rear display would at least go to a "whopping" 500'000 dots like on the low-end compacts today - OK just kidding, let's say 1 million dots at least please.

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