The image quality...

Started May 10, 2012 | Discussions
LouHolland
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The image quality...
May 10, 2012

The image quality in the micro forum is really growing and somtimes outperformes what's (I've seen) seen on this forum. It has surprised me, so I hope there will be within a resonable time a new E-x or E-xx from olympus to support and feed the users of this forum. It could be a bit smaller than the E-5, but still one with a mature fixed grip. Otherwise I would say either as "Whoodle" said in this thread.."Kinda Delusional Here; 4/3 is Clearly Dead".

Lou

CollBaxter
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It better be.
In reply to LouHolland, May 10, 2012

As to the E-M5 pictures

16MP , light AA filter , 2 stop noise advantage. They better be better. Compared to a nearly 2 year old camera.

To use the word delusional is silly ( I was going to use the word stupid but i used that in a previous post ) as a lot of us have been on this forum for years with Olympus sucking the hind teat sensor wise. We have had very know type of troll and had all the R.I.P. messages from conception. Referring to a previous post I think the word delusional has been used before or used up over the years .

So Olympus solves the sensor problem and we are now the d word because we want an upgraded product. An E-5/30 with 4/3 glass and just with the E-M5 sensor would kick all the m4/3 cameras backsides except for video.

Oh yes and any thing that requires CAF ( Period) and requires a lens longer than 300mm. And does at least 5 FPS still focusing on it's target.

And I really don’t care how big or small the camera is.

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TrapperJohn
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The only thing dying is the mirror.
In reply to LouHolland, May 10, 2012

Ask yourself a basic question: why have you stuck with 4/3 all this time, and put up with the somewhat mediocre body performance?

Most likely, HG and SHG. Sharp, razor sharp, wide open sharp, any focal length sharp, cut your eyeballs looking at the photo sharp. And here is a secret: HG and SHG produce those same results on an EM5 with the grip installed, actually a bit better with this hot new sensor. Not internet nitpick-about-anything-proof, but the drawbacks can be worked around, while the strengths can't be reproduced with any other glass, definitely not the MZD zooms. They're about like SG ZD.

I'm a bit surprised that some 4/3 owners frown about ZD on EM5, when they've worked around far greater obstacles in the past.

The EVF? Tempest in a teapot. After two weeks of use and comparing it to the E3's OVF, I love the new EVF, and I'm not looking back. All I can say is - give it a couple of weeks, and see what you think. You might be surprised.

And here's another secret: those ZD primes you wanted? The EM5 has them, or is in the process of getting them, and they're not only sharp enough to merit the ZD label, they're real small. That, to me was the deciding reason to go with the EM5 to replace my aging E3, rather than wait for an E7. My current ZD zooms, plus those wicked primes. I don't see myself leaving 4/3, more taking it to the next level, while bringing the best parts with me.

No, the AF isn't perfect, but if you work with it instead of seeking fault, you can get very good results, which is what all of us have been doing with the 4/3 bodies in other areas. I've seen enough to tell me that current HG/SHG ZD's can AF quickly on this system, it's just a matter of enough incentive to get Oly to really address it. Or possibly redesign the ZD legends for M43. Look how much they shrunk the PL 14-50's F3.5 capability into the 12-50. If they dispose of the power zoom and mediocre macro, and focus on IQ above all else, they might be able to shrink the 12-60 and 50-200 to a similar degree.

And that incentive may exist: the FF owners who are seriously looking at the EM5 as a small solution addition to their FF rig. A surprising number of them are. If they get into the EM5 and love it (probably will), they will miss their fast zooms, and might provide the financial incentive for an AF solution, by demonstrating a willingness to buy them. Already, the price of the CDAF capable 14-54II has shot up dramatically on the used market. If you don't like the OMD/HG ZD combination, they will. So a heads up: your beloved ZD's might be rescued by the very crew you bickered back and forth with over the years.

This could be ironic, to an embarressing degree.

At this point, what are your alternatives? There won't be an E40 or E620, Oly is not investing in the very market that they're devastating with the EM5. There may be an E7. Or maybe not - perhaps instead an OMD-Pro with ZD AF fixed.

On the other hand, I probably shouldn't be trying to dispel all this doom and gloom, it is depressing ZD prices. I have my eye on a couple of 150 F2's, for sale at the usual price, and they're not selling. So keep up that negativism. I want that 150, and I want it at a cheap price... say, $1200.

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Jolly Oly
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Re: The image quality...
In reply to LouHolland, May 10, 2012

LouHolland wrote:

The image quality in the micro forum is really growing and somtimes outperformes what's (I've seen) seen on this forum.

That is true, but the same could be said for Canon and Nikon FF forum and some other forums too..

It has surprised me, so I hope there will be within a resonable time a new E-x or E-xx from olympus to support and feed the users of this forum. It could be a bit smaller than the E-5, but still one with a mature fixed grip. Otherwise I would say either as "Whoodle" said in this thread.."Kinda Delusional Here; 4/3 is Clearly Dead".

Lou

(continuoes) ..and that doesn't mean that I have any reason to change system.

It would really take a major failure in my E-3/12-60/50-200/50M/Roki85 to even think about something like switch (and I would really have a hard time to decide what next).

Yes we are all gearheads who love photo equipment and enjoy buying new stuff, and of course there are some new and nice technology, worth of looking at, around - imho we (non-pros like me) don't have any reason to feel bad about our gear.

Actually - there is no way that someone could convince me that I need something better than what I already have (and I don't even have E-5 or any SHG-s !)
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Rich Z
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The mirror
In reply to TrapperJohn, May 10, 2012

I'd give up the mirror for an EMx which could focus my SHG and HG glass as fast as the E3 and E5 do. I wonder if the EM5 does 9 fps in RAW, that would be great. And, I wonder if the 5-axis IS is more for video, but really don't care. I've only used the video once on the E5, and it made an avi file which gave me a blue screen of death, twice. Don't care about video, anyway. If an electronic view finder will refresh fast enough to let me pan fast when following a bird, without skipping, I'd go for it in a minute. Besides I miss all the information, exposure preview options and viewing finished picture with eyepiece thus avoiding all the extraneous light that interferes with that when viewing it on the LCD, and other options you have in an electronic view finder, from my days with a high end point and shoot. Push a button and toggle a histogram overlay in the view finder, oh yeah! Also, mirror slap is part of the noise you hear from a reflex camera and I've startled many critters from that, and alerted people when doing candids, thus losing further shots. A real quiet shutter with the things I've just mentioned would make me a buyer, today. The great E3 and E5 are both heavy and would make great bookends. Rich

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citizenlouie
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Re: The image quality...
In reply to LouHolland, May 10, 2012

I think the reason I am still hold onto my E-620 instead of just getting an EM-5 is because the glass. When I sit down and think if I got that camera, which lenses should I get to replace my 12-60mm and 50-200mm SWD, then I realized, there is no option there.

Which lenses would you pick?

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CollinFX45
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Re: The image quality...
In reply to citizenlouie, May 11, 2012

Well, that's easy to answer: You'd pick the Oly 12mm, Panny 14mm, 20mm, 25mm, Oly 45mm and, hmm, not sure what you'd do for 60mm That would sufficiently recreate the sharpness of the 12-60mm. I hope you didn't want convenience with that setup though.

I'm kidding, but I face the same issue. I could go with an E-M5, sure, but what would effectively recreate my 24-400mm range (with two lenses) and do it under f/4?

I'll sit tight for now.

-Collin-

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benross
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Re: The image quality...
In reply to CollinFX45, May 11, 2012

I know it's a sacrilege in Olympus forums but the only reason EM-5 is not attractive to me is its size! It's just too small for my comfort! I had Contax G2 -still do- with the thought that moving from SLR to a compact size might be the ticket to carry my camera around more often. It didn't work that way at all. I bought G2 for its lenses as I bought E-30 for the same reason. But if it gets much smaller than E-30 it's not for me! been there done that.

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CollBaxter
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Re: The image quality...
In reply to CollinFX45, May 11, 2012

Well there goes the compact theory you need a bag full of lenses to covers one quality 4/3 lenses.

The owners of a 12-60 and a 50-200 are ging to have a difficult time replacing the glass.
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citizenlouie
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Re: The image quality...
In reply to CollinFX45, May 11, 2012

And money!

Let's see:

OM-D EM-5 (body only): $999
Zuiko 12mm f/2: $799
Panasonic/Leica 25mm f/1.4: $539
Zuiko 45mm f/1.8: $399

Zuiko 40-150mm f/4-5.6: $249 (since there is no other substitute for 50-200mm SWD)

Total: $2985

And of course, you need new sets of filters.... Not to mention hoods cost extra for m4/3 lenses.

I am not that rich....

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CollBaxter
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Re: The image quality...
In reply to citizenlouie, May 11, 2012

citizenlouie wrote:

And money!

Let's see:

OM-D EM-5 (body only): $999
Zuiko 12mm f/2: $799
Panasonic/Leica 25mm f/1.4: $539
Zuiko 45mm f/1.8: $399

Zuiko 40-150mm f/4-5.6: $249 (since there is no other substitute for 50-200mm SWD)

Total: $2985

And of course, you need new sets of filters.... Not to mention hoods cost extra for m4/3 lenses.

I am not that rich....

Add the the battery grip $299 and a spare battery $59 = $3349

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boggis the cat
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I'll be buying the E-M5, but not for the primes
In reply to TrapperJohn, May 11, 2012

I've decided to get the E-M5 with the 12-50 for the size/weight to quality compromise and decent video capability.

If I can find a good wide-angle zoom for a good price then that would be worth having, but I'll likely need to keep the E-5 for driving the 50-200 (where I usually don't have time to spare to wait for AF).

The E-M5 with 12-50 would replace the E-620 with grip and 12-60 for dual body use. It will also maybe replace the video snapper for which I use the Panasonic TZ7 at the moment (although I'm not sure if the tele reach will be adequate).

I also considered the Nikon "1" system, but it is best as a tele system and the E-5 and 50-200 is already excellent for my use so I'd be trading size/weight for capability. Going Micro also offers some level of cross-compatibility with accessories.

TrapperJohn wrote:

Ask yourself a basic question: why have you stuck with 4/3 all this time, and put up with the somewhat mediocre body performance?

Most likely, HG and SHG. Sharp, razor sharp, wide open sharp, any focal length sharp, cut your eyeballs looking at the photo sharp. And here is a secret: HG and SHG produce those same results on an EM5 with the grip installed, actually a bit better with this hot new sensor. Not internet nitpick-about-anything-proof, but the drawbacks can be worked around, while the strengths can't be reproduced with any other glass, definitely not the MZD zooms. They're about like SG ZD.

I'm a bit surprised that some 4/3 owners frown about ZD on EM5, when they've worked around far greater obstacles in the past.

The AF sounds marginal, and I'm not terribly keen on demolishing my SWD lenses via inappropriate CDAF use (they grind away somewhat alarmingly in "live view" using the E-5, so the E-M5 pushing them harder may not be ideal).

The EVF? Tempest in a teapot. After two weeks of use and comparing it to the E3's OVF, I love the new EVF, and I'm not looking back. All I can say is - give it a couple of weeks, and see what you think. You might be surprised.

And here's another secret: those ZD primes you wanted? The EM5 has them, or is in the process of getting them, and they're not only sharp enough to merit the ZD label, they're real small. That, to me was the deciding reason to go with the EM5 to replace my aging E3, rather than wait for an E7. My current ZD zooms, plus those wicked primes. I don't see myself leaving 4/3, more taking it to the next level, while bringing the best parts with me.

No, the AF isn't perfect, but if you work with it instead of seeking fault, you can get very good results, which is what all of us have been doing with the 4/3 bodies in other areas. I've seen enough to tell me that current HG/SHG ZD's can AF quickly on this system, it's just a matter of enough incentive to get Oly to really address it. Or possibly redesign the ZD legends for M43. Look how much they shrunk the PL 14-50's F3.5 capability into the 12-50. If they dispose of the power zoom and mediocre macro, and focus on IQ above all else, they might be able to shrink the 12-60 and 50-200 to a similar degree.

Possibly they could shrink the 12-60 a little, but most likely they would compromise the optical performance to achieve extra reduction. The 50-200 would be more challenging. The long teles on Micro are mediocre and expensive.

At this point, what are your alternatives? There won't be an E40 or E620, Oly is not investing in the very market that they're devastating with the EM5. There may be an E7. Or maybe not - perhaps instead an OMD-Pro with ZD AF fixed.

On the other hand, I probably shouldn't be trying to dispel all this doom and gloom, it is depressing ZD prices. I have my eye on a couple of 150 F2's, for sale at the usual price, and they're not selling. So keep up that negativism. I want that 150, and I want it at a cheap price... say, $1200.

Which is where an E-30 or E-5 update would come in useful...

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rovingtim
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Re: The image quality...
In reply to benross, May 11, 2012

benross wrote:

But if it gets much smaller than E-30 it's not for me! been there done that.

The E1 is smaller than the E30 -- and for most people has MUCH better ergonomics -- ... which is one of the reasons I've never liked the newer high end Oly bodies.

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rovingtim
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Re: The image quality...
In reply to CollBaxter, May 11, 2012

I still use the 14-54 -- a cracking lens when it gets the focus right.

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TrapperJohn
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A few observations
In reply to Rich Z, May 11, 2012

The EVF is very good, it's not the joke that a P&S EVF is. I don't notice lag when panning. Sharp enough to judge MF. Bright in dim light, albeit with some noise. A feature I really like - when you fire a shot, it shows a quick half second view of the actual shot, so if you're shooting action, you get an idea if you got it, without chimping.

IBIS - extremely effective. I don't have a lab, but I do have several afternoons with the 50-200. You know those shots you try for with an E3, thinking, it should get that shot, but later you find motion blur? On the EM5, I fire shots that I'm thinking, this will probably get motion blur, down in the 1/100 range, and they come out razor sharp.

The shutter sounds like the old E1. Muted, no high frequency pop, very discreet.

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TrapperJohn
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Probably will see an E7, but not an E40
In reply to boggis the cat, May 11, 2012

I'm not saying this is what should happen, but what is likely to happen.

You'll likely see an E7 with the EM5 sensor, possibly the new IBIS system. Based on the E5 time frame, probably by the end of the summer, maybe early fall. Given recent development, you might also see a truly pro grade OMD that fixes the ZD AF issue.

But a smaller dedicated 4/3 body? Don't see it happening. The EM5 has been a big boost for Olympus, both financially and to corporate image, when they really needed it. Does anyone remember they had an accounting scandal? The EM5 has all but wiped out that perception.

And then there's the obvious question - why re-enter a market that the EM5 is currently decimating?

Honestly, they're not far off good ZD AF on EM5. It would make more sense to fix that issue than bring out a midrange 4/3 body that can't use the new lenses.

Agree that the current long M43 teles are weak, just like the SG ZD's. It's why I love my older 50-200, remains sharp when the light gets dim.

Keep an eye out for a used or refurb MZD 9-18, I sure am. A bit pricey at $600, but $300... and it's tiny.

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esco
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Those that want/need great zooms. . move onto canikon
In reply to CollBaxter, May 11, 2012

Well if they use any sort of common sense then they'd have realized:

If micro is good for them then having the 4/3 kit was somewhat overkill in the first place. . . there are several reasons to this for example maybe the options of a camera like the omd wasn't there in the past.

If thier 4/3 kit and it's zooms are indeed something they need and or still want then they are better served by canikon at this point. They'll have a far easier time getting what they need. I don't see how olympus could be of an ideal option to them at this point other than the brand name being the same. You can cut your losses and move on or you can stick around while your gear depreciates right in front of your eyes in hopes that olympus somehow brings 4/3's out of the grave and ignores all other financial responsabilities.

Or you can sit around and whine about it all despite realizing the most obvious and grown-up choice that's in front of you. Some people will go out kicking and screaming I suppose.

CollBaxter wrote:

Well there goes the compact theory you need a bag full of lenses to covers one quality 4/3 lenses.

The owners of a 12-60 and a 50-200 are ging to have a difficult time replacing the glass.
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Keith Hatfull
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Re: The image quality...
In reply to CollinFX45, May 11, 2012

CollinFX45 wrote:

Well, that's easy to answer: You'd pick the Oly 12mm, Panny 14mm, 20mm, 25mm, Oly 45mm and, hmm, not sure what you'd do for 60mm That would sufficiently recreate the sharpness of the 12-60mm. I hope you didn't want convenience with that setup though.

I'm kidding, but I face the same issue. I could go with an E-M5, sure, but what would effectively recreate my 24-400mm range (with two lenses) and do it under f/4?

I'll sit tight for now.

-Collin-

Do you really, really, mean it this time?!?! LOL!

You still need the ZD 50 dude

Chat later...

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DVSteve
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Re: The image quality...
In reply to citizenlouie, May 11, 2012

I think I'm going to order up the EM-5 for a spin. My biggest gripe with the E-3 is the sensor performance, which the EM-5 seems to fix. Since I'm also a zoom guy, and since there isn't much of anything for m4/3rds, I'm planning on using my 12-60 & 50-200 in MF. I grew up with MF, so I'm hoping the EVF and/or the rear LCD help with MF more than my stupid Nex 5n.
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Braxton7
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Re: The image quality...
In reply to benross, May 11, 2012

benross wrote:

I know it's a sacrilege in Olympus forums but the only reason EM-5 is not attractive to me is its size! It's just too small for my comfort! I had Contax G2 -still do- with the thought that moving from SLR to a compact size might be the ticket to carry my camera around more often. It didn't work that way at all. I bought G2 for its lenses as I bought E-30 for the same reason. But if it gets much smaller than E-30 it's not for me! been there done that.

I agree. Apparently not everyone does though. I've never used a m4/3 camera but even on my E-510 a 50-200 feels uncomfortable.

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