Those who are on the "fence".

Started May 9, 2012 | Discussions
juiceol
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Those who are on the "fence".
May 9, 2012

Like many, i could not decide between 5Dll and 5Dlll after selling my 7D. Lets face it, your on the "fence" only because of the price of a 5Dlll. Well I went for the 5Dll, and am VERY happy with it. Going from crop to FF is a huge difference. Be forwarned, if your into post prossesing like I am, you wont have much to do with the 5Dll. I have taken about 1000 shots so far in one week with the 5Dll, and have been thrilled with the RAW shots out of the camera. It is like I keep waiting for something to fix, and find nothing.With my 7D I always had to do either more sharpening, or exposure comp. or something else even though I had a very good lens 17-55mm 2.8. It just does not match L glass or the resolution of a FF sensor. No doubt the 5Dlll is a great camera, and does exceed the 5Dll in many ways, but not much if any in IQ or DR. Remember,it is more important to learn how to take great pictures than to have the latest and greatest camera. I also dont know the facination with all of these focus points.The 5Dll only has 9 and my shots are PIN SHARP. The 7D has 19 and sometimes I realized that I was spending more time deciding which one to use than just taking a nice shot. The 5dll ROCKS, is EASY to use, takes fantastic shots, and is very popular for a reason. I will be surrounding it with great glass and enjoy it for a few years and then buy a 5dlll.(LOL). The 5Dll might be a 3 plus year old camera, but its brand new in my bag. Thanks for your time.

carlk
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Re: Those who are on the "fence".
In reply to juiceol, May 9, 2012

Sounds like 7D is too much a camera for you. It is much harder to learn and to master than 5DII especially for a mediocre photographer (can't decide which AF point best to use). Otherwise you should not see those differences in all 1000 pictures you took with your new camera.

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whitehat
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Re: Those who are on the "fence".
In reply to juiceol, May 9, 2012

Juiceol the MK2 is a fantastic camera - you will enjoy it. I used it in wedding photography for 3 years and it never let me down - just recently migrated to the MK3s. Happy shooting.

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juiceol
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Re: Those who are on the "fence".
In reply to carlk, May 9, 2012

Sorry if I hit a nerve, but for YOUR information, I did know my 7D very well in my 10,000 plus pictures that I took with it including 3 tours to Hawaii. it served me well and took beautiful pictures . This was not a dig on the 7D, as it is a great camera, just NOT in the same league as the FF lineup.

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carlk
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Re: Those who are on the "fence".
In reply to juiceol, May 9, 2012

What you said is just amateurish. Like I said you have to look at the photographer if you could not get as good result from 7D as you could from 5DII for many types of photography (landscape for example). For other types of photography each has their advantages and disadvantages. It depends on whether you want to do fast shooting, longer reach... or you want to shoot in low light or get very thin DOF. It is not an absolute upgrade or "not in the same league" like you said other than more money has been spent.

Your statement about 1 cross AF point is better than 19 because you don't need to make hard decisions is not encouraging as far as how good a photographer you are is concerned. Here is another current thread about how one could get soft images from a high pixel density sensor like 7D has. It might be more forgiving when using 5DII if you don't posses these skills but your general statement of the 7D is not in the same league as 5DII amounts to a bad photographer blames his tool for things he/she could not accomplish.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=41459381

juiceol wrote:

Sorry if I hit a nerve, but for YOUR information, I did know my 7D very well in my 10,000 plus pictures that I took with it including 3 tours to Hawaii. it served me well and took beautiful pictures . This was not a dig on the 7D, as it is a great camera, just NOT in the same league as the FF lineup.

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gipper51
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Re: Those who are on the "fence".
In reply to carlk, May 9, 2012

carlk wrote:

What you said is just amateurish. Like I said you have to look at the photographer if you could not get as good result from 7D as you could from 5DII for many types of photography (landscape for example). For other types of photography each has their advantages and disadvantages. It depends on whether you want to do fast shooting, longer reach... or you want to shoot in low light or get very thin DOF. It is not an absolute upgrade or "not in the same league" like you said other than more money has been spent.

Carl maybe it's because you own the best glass available you forget this, but you should qualify your statement with a big "IF". And that "if" regards lens quality. Yes a 7D can match a 5D2 for landscapes IF you put the best glass on it. Not all of us are wealthy.

The 7D's pixel density equals 54mp on FF. Considering the Nikon D800 review already says 36mp FF is only fully resolved by a few of Nikon's best optics, even fewer would feed a higher density (like the 7D). It's no secret the fatter pixels on a 5D2 can give better results than a 7D with lenses that cost less than a few month's rent.

MANY shooters have stated they are seeing sharper pictures more consistently with their lenses going from crop to FF. Since you don't own a FF body, maybe you should reserve judgement toward those who do. In a perfect world the 7D will put up equal results on every shot because the resolution charts say it can, out in the real world it's not the case.
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juiceol
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Re: Those who are on the "fence".
In reply to gipper51, May 9, 2012

Thanks Gipper at least you know what im talking about. By the way, these were taken with the 7D.

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Flying Fish
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Re: Those who are on the "fence".
In reply to juiceol, May 9, 2012

Juice: You've given us only half the equation, and it's the half we already knew: the 5D2 is a great camera that has incredible IQ. But what users of the 5D3 are saying is that it has even better IQ, and--more important--the best AF system on any Canon camera ! That is, better than the 1D4 and better than the 7D. Plus a much better viewfinder, LCD, and user interface and 6 fps.

As for the lenses, you say the L lenses make the 5D2 so much better. Well, they make the 7D that much better, too. They even make my T2i (550D) that much better.

I've never been tempted by the 5D2 but I'm sorely tempted by the 5D3.

FF

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carlk
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Re: Those who are on the "fence".
In reply to gipper51, May 9, 2012

We can argue this all day (oh I guess we did) but there is really very little difference between a good aps-c and full frame of similar resolution when you are in good light and stop the lens down to f/8 or f/11. (Incidentally some of the Hawaiian landscape pictures op posted before were shot at wide open. Nothing to do with lenses just bad skill.) You are right about the fat pixels of full frame is more forgiving but that exactly proved my point. It takes more skills and precautions to shoot high pixel density sensor just because it’s easier to see defects when pixel peep. Op obviously is not that kind of photographer and should not post such a strong opinion about the cameras. OK he’s free to post anything but it should not go unchallenged.

I don’t own a full frame (yet) but I do understand the reasons why I want one or not wanting one. Some of the greatest landscape photographers think the same way too. Juza picked a 7D to replace his 1DsIII as the main camera he uses since the camera was first released. Michael Reichmann of Luminous Landscape wrote an article a few years ago comparing 13”x19” prints from a Canon G10 and a 40MP MF and concludes people will not be able to see the difference. Anyway I was just arguing against op’s “not in the same league” statement, unless the “league” refers to the photographer but not these two cameras.

gipper51 wrote:

carlk wrote:

What you said is just amateurish. Like I said you have to look at the photographer if you could not get as good result from 7D as you could from 5DII for many types of photography (landscape for example). For other types of photography each has their advantages and disadvantages. It depends on whether you want to do fast shooting, longer reach... or you want to shoot in low light or get very thin DOF. It is not an absolute upgrade or "not in the same league" like you said other than more money has been spent.

Carl maybe it's because you own the best glass available you forget this, but you should qualify your statement with a big "IF". And that "if" regards lens quality. Yes a 7D can match a 5D2 for landscapes IF you put the best glass on it. Not all of us are wealthy.

The 7D's pixel density equals 54mp on FF. Considering the Nikon D800 review already says 36mp FF is only fully resolved by a few of Nikon's best optics, even fewer would feed a higher density (like the 7D). It's no secret the fatter pixels on a 5D2 can give better results than a 7D with lenses that cost less than a few month's rent.

MANY shooters have stated they are seeing sharper pictures more consistently with their lenses going from crop to FF. Since you don't own a FF body, maybe you should reserve judgement toward those who do. In a perfect world the 7D will put up equal results on every shot because the resolution charts say it can, out in the real world it's not the case.
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carlk
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Re: Those who are on the "fence".
In reply to juiceol, May 9, 2012

I mentioned it in my post below. What's the reason you shoot f/2.8 for the landscape? Besides do you know these are just very ordinary pictures that you don't even need a high end dslr to do?

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carlk
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Re: Those who are on the "fence".
In reply to Flying Fish, May 9, 2012

Flying Fish wrote:

I've never been tempted by the 5D2 but I'm sorely tempted by the 5D3.

That's a fair statement but Canon is asking too much for the 5D3.

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kelpdiver
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Re: Those who are on the "fence".
In reply to Flying Fish, May 9, 2012

Flying Fish wrote:

Juice: You've given us only half the equation, and it's the half we already knew: the 5D2 is a great camera that has incredible IQ. But what users of the 5D3 are saying is that it has even better IQ, and--more important--the best AF system on any Canon camera ! That is, better than the 1D4 and better than the 7D. Plus a much better viewfinder, LCD, and user interface and 6 fps.

I found myself unexpectantly at an air show this weekend on a trip to LA. It wasn't the plan, or I probably would have had a different combo than a 5dIII + 24-105. Normally I'd prefer the longer reach of the 7d and the 100-400. But it wasn't the plan. The friends I was visiting included a heli pilot on the airport and we were able to get fairly close to the edge of the runway and planes did constant flybys.

The AF on the III keeps concerning me - I don't see any hunting as it tracks a moving object, which keeps making me wonder if it's actually working. But I could hardly find any misses out of hundreds of shots here. Without changing anything other than to AI Focus, it is working much better for me than the 7. The best test I have to conclude with is to get to a hockey game - I've used a 30d and a 7d there and it is a good situation where objects change distance dramatically and often.

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gipper51
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Re: Those who are on the "fence".
In reply to carlk, May 9, 2012

carlk wrote:

You are right about the fat pixels of full frame is more forgiving but that exactly proved my point. It takes more skills and precautions to shoot high pixel density sensor just because it’s easier to see defects when pixel peep.

And that statement proves why in the real world why more folks get more sharp pictures on the FF body. It's not that a pixel packed APS body won't do it, it's just way easier on FF. In general more forgiving tools give better results.

I don’t own a full frame (yet) but I do understand the reasons why I want one or not wanting one. Some of the greatest landscape photographers think the same way too. Juza picked a 7D to replace his 1DsIII as the main camera he uses since the camera was first released. Michael Reichmann of Luminous Landscape wrote an article a few years ago comparing 13”x19” prints from a Canon G10 and a 40MP MF and concludes people will not be able to see the difference. Anyway I was just arguing against op’s “not in the same league” statement, unless the “league” refers to the photographer but not these two cameras.

When you finally do get that FF body, I'll anxiously await your comments about how sharp the images are compared to your crop bodies

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carlk
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Re: Those who are on the "fence".
In reply to gipper51, May 9, 2012

gipper51 wrote:

carlk wrote:

You are right about the fat pixels of full frame is more forgiving but that exactly proved my point. It takes more skills and precautions to shoot high pixel density sensor just because it’s easier to see defects when pixel peep.

And that statement proves why in the real world why more folks get more sharp pictures on the FF body. It's not that a pixel packed APS body won't do it, it's just way easier on FF. In general more forgiving tools give better results.

That could very well be the reason especially for people who can't resist pixel peep. I'm not sure using an expensive camera to fix the photographic skill problem is the right way to go though. You can learn better skills and use the extra money to buy better lenses (my reason for not buying 5D) not to mention you might miss some of those very useful advantages of aps-c (fps and reach, my reason for choosing 7D).

I don’t own a full frame (yet) but I do understand the reasons why I want one or not wanting one. Some of the greatest landscape photographers think the same way too. Juza picked a 7D to replace his 1DsIII as the main camera he uses since the camera was first released. Michael Reichmann of Luminous Landscape wrote an article a few years ago comparing 13”x19” prints from a Canon G10 and a 40MP MF and concludes people will not be able to see the difference. Anyway I was just arguing against op’s “not in the same league” statement, unless the “league” refers to the photographer but not these two cameras.

When you finally do get that FF body, I'll anxiously await your comments about how sharp the images are compared to your crop bodies

I'm getting a high MP full frame camera with which I need to apply the same technique and precaution as when using a high pixel density aps-c camera.

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gipper51
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Re: Those who are on the "fence".
In reply to carlk, May 9, 2012

carlk wrote:

gipper51 wrote:

carlk wrote:

You are right about the fat pixels of full frame is more forgiving but that exactly proved my point. It takes more skills and precautions to shoot high pixel density sensor just because it’s easier to see defects when pixel peep.

And that statement proves why in the real world why more folks get more sharp pictures on the FF body. It's not that a pixel packed APS body won't do it, it's just way easier on FF. In general more forgiving tools give better results.

That could very well be the reason especially for people who can't resist pixel peep. I'm not sure using an expensive camera to fix the photographic skill problem is the right way to go though. You can learn better skills and use the extra money to buy better lenses (my reason for not buying 5D) not to mention you might miss some of those very useful advantages of aps-c (fps and reach, my reason for choosing 7D).

It's not just the skill level, some differences are inherent in the format differences. Certain lenses will always be sharper at f1.4 on a 5D2 than on a 7D. No amount of proper technique will change that. I'm not saying that proper technique is not critical with either body for best result, just that the larger sensor seems to have a wider "sweet spot" than crop at similar pixel counts.

I don’t own a full frame (yet) but I do understand the reasons why I want one or not wanting one. Some of the greatest landscape photographers think the same way too. Juza picked a 7D to replace his 1DsIII as the main camera he uses since the camera was first released. Michael Reichmann of Luminous Landscape wrote an article a few years ago comparing 13”x19” prints from a Canon G10 and a 40MP MF and concludes people will not be able to see the difference. Anyway I was just arguing against op’s “not in the same league” statement, unless the “league” refers to the photographer but not these two cameras.

When you finally do get that FF body, I'll anxiously await your comments about how sharp the images are compared to your crop bodies

I'm getting a high MP full frame camera with which I need to apply the same technique and precaution as when using a high pixel density aps-c camera.

Would that be a 5D3 or a Nikon?

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On the 5D3 and D800: "The fact there is still so much to criticize with cameras this good only proves the human race can never be satisfied with anything." (Me)

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Brad Durack
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Re: Those who are on the "fence".
In reply to juiceol, May 10, 2012

You can try rationalize your purchace, but your only convincing yourself.

Truth is if you had a choice, you would take the 5d3, it's a better camera. Only other factors influenced your desicion, I assume financial was a major factor.

juiceol wrote:

Like many, i could not decide between 5Dll and 5Dlll after selling my 7D. Lets face it, your on the "fence" only because of the price of a 5Dlll. Well I went for the 5Dll, and am VERY happy with it. Going from crop to FF is a huge difference. Be forwarned, if your into post prossesing like I am, you wont have much to do with the 5Dll. I have taken about 1000 shots so far in one week with the 5Dll, and have been thrilled with the RAW shots out of the camera. It is like I keep waiting for something to fix, and find nothing.With my 7D I always had to do either more sharpening, or exposure comp. or something else even though I had a very good lens 17-55mm 2.8. It just does not match L glass or the resolution of a FF sensor. No doubt the 5Dlll is a great camera, and does exceed the 5Dll in many ways, but not much if any in IQ or DR. Remember,it is more important to learn how to take great pictures than to have the latest and greatest camera. I also dont know the facination with all of these focus points.The 5Dll only has 9 and my shots are PIN SHARP. The 7D has 19 and sometimes I realized that I was spending more time deciding which one to use than just taking a nice shot. The 5dll ROCKS, is EASY to use, takes fantastic shots, and is very popular for a reason. I will be surrounding it with great glass and enjoy it for a few years and then buy a 5dlll.(LOL). The 5Dll might be a 3 plus year old camera, but its brand new in my bag. Thanks for your time.

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carlk
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Re: Those who are on the "fence".
In reply to gipper51, May 10, 2012

gipper51 wrote:

I'm getting a high MP full frame camera with which I need to apply the same technique and precaution as when using a high pixel density aps-c camera.

Would that be a 5D3 or a Nikon?

Well it has high MP.

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gipper51
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Re: Those who are on the "fence".
In reply to carlk, May 10, 2012

carlk wrote:

gipper51 wrote:

I'm getting a high MP full frame camera with which I need to apply the same technique and precaution as when using a high pixel density aps-c camera.

Would that be a 5D3 or a Nikon?

Well it has high MP.

Ahh, going with the Phase One IQ80 then, huh? Good choice.
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