Is cropping regarded as P.P

Started May 9, 2012 | Discussions
RossAndrew
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Is cropping regarded as P.P
May 9, 2012

I always try to dose much as I can can with the camera as to reduce PP.

With a challenge coming up that has the rules saying, minor editing , small fixes ok.

So my question is cropping that can't be done with the camera ok in this situation.
Also what is HDR

Mike Ronesia
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Re: Is cropping regarded as P.P
In reply to RossAndrew, May 9, 2012

In my opinion cropping is as basic as post processing gets. I would never not allow it.

HDR is when you combine multiple shots of the same scene taken at different exposures so you can capture more shadow and highlight detail then the camera sensor can get in one shot. It is often done very poorly and I would consider it advanced post processing.
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win13
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Re: Is cropping regarded as P.P
In reply to Mike Ronesia, May 9, 2012

Mike Ronesia wrote:

In my opinion cropping is as basic as post processing gets. I would never not allow it.

HDR is when you combine multiple shots of the same scene taken at different exposures so you can capture more shadow and highlight detail then the camera sensor can get in one shot. It is often done very poorly and I would consider it advanced post processing.
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Hi Mike,

Re HDR look-alike? If you set the Oly E-5 to (art10)Dynamic Tone filter or iEnhance filter it looks like a HDR photo, but it has not been processed only a filter is being used, would that then DQ me in comps that state No HDR...

Win from Sunny Thailand.

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Mike Ronesia
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Re: Is cropping regarded as P.P
In reply to win13, May 9, 2012

win13 wrote:

Mike Ronesia wrote:

In my opinion cropping is as basic as post processing gets. I would never not allow it.

HDR is when you combine multiple shots of the same scene taken at different exposures so you can capture more shadow and highlight detail then the camera sensor can get in one shot. It is often done very poorly and I would consider it advanced post processing.
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Hi Mike,

Re HDR look-alike? If you set the Oly E-5 to (art10)Dynamic Tone filter or iEnhance filter it looks like a HDR photo, but it has not been processed only a filter is being used, would that then DQ me in comps that state No HDR...

Win from Sunny Thailand.

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Kan Win

It wouldn't in a challenge I was hosting. I'm not sure how most hosts deal with in camera art filters so if I were to want to enter one I would most likely PM the host and ask if it was OK.
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RaptorUK
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Re: Is cropping regarded as P.P
In reply to win13, May 9, 2012

win13 wrote:

Hi Mike,

Re HDR look-alike? If you set the Oly E-5 to (art10)Dynamic Tone filter or iEnhance filter it looks like a HDR photo, but it has not been processed only a filter is being used, would that then DQ me in comps that state No HDR...

Unless it's physically a piece of glass or plastic that is the filter then it is a filter by way of software . . . and a software filter works by processing the image . . . just like HDR does.

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Mike Ronesia
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Re: Is cropping regarded as P.P
In reply to RaptorUK, May 9, 2012

RaptorUK wrote:

win13 wrote:

Hi Mike,

Re HDR look-alike? If you set the Oly E-5 to (art10)Dynamic Tone filter or iEnhance filter it looks like a HDR photo, but it has not been processed only a filter is being used, would that then DQ me in comps that state No HDR...

Unless it's physically a piece of glass or plastic that is the filter then it is a filter by way of software . . . and a software filter works by processing the image . . . just like HDR does.

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But some hosts specify "No HDR" and to me it would not be what I consider HDR. Maybe it's semantics but no HDR is very specific to me.
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RaptorUK
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Re: Is cropping regarded as P.P
In reply to Mike Ronesia, May 9, 2012

Mike Ronesia wrote:

But some hosts specify "No HDR" and to me it would not be what I consider HDR. Maybe it's semantics but no HDR is very specific to me.

I don't know if it is or isn't HDR in the case of the in camera Olympus stuff . . . but it might be . . . and HDR is HDR even if it's not overdone and false looking.

IMO subtle HDR can work very well in some situations . . . most of the time it is used it is just a mess.

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jrtrent
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Re: Is cropping regarded as P.P
In reply to Mike Ronesia, May 9, 2012

The question of what is and what isn't HDR gets trickier these days as more and more cameras are offering the feature as a time-of-capture feature. For example, my Ricoh CX3 compact can be set to take two images and blend them to retain highlight and shadow detail. My Fuji S200EXR can be set to divide its pixels into two sets, simultaneously taking two images that it then blends to extend highlight dynamic range. I don't think this is what most hosts would refer to as HDR, but technically, what else would you call it? As you said, "HDR is when you combine multiple shots of the same scene taken at different exposures so you can capture more shadow and highlight detail then the camera sensor can get in one shot." And that's exactly what more and more cameras are able to do for you automatically.

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Mike Ronesia
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Re: Is cropping regarded as P.P
In reply to jrtrent, May 9, 2012

I would call both of those in camera HDR. Anything that combines different exposures into one image to improve DR no matter where it's done is HDR to me.
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jrtrent
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Re: Is cropping regarded as P.P
In reply to Mike Ronesia, May 9, 2012

Mike Ronesia wrote:

I would call both of those in camera HDR. Anything that combines different exposures into one image to improve DR no matter where it's done is HDR to me.

Fair enough, and very consistent. But I do think that many have a particular look in mind when they say "no HDR." There is a group at Flickr that is "dedicated to all the people who hate this silly new hype called HDR, that gives totally unreal and horrible pictures. So please post pictures with normal shadows, normal skies, great and natural contrast!" HDR technique can, of course, also be used to provide exactly what that group wants. Since it is one way to avoid washed out, color-shifted highlights and blocked-up shadows in high contrast scenes, HDR provides exactly the kind of normal/natural look many of us strive for in our pictures.

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Slynky
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Re: Is cropping regarded as P.P
In reply to RossAndrew, May 9, 2012

I don't think I would ever disallow HDR. It's a tricky subject to even determine if done correctly. Disallowing it because a lot of us hate the overdone look so many people seem to like seems like it might be overkill...as the saying goes, throwing the baby out with the bath water.

For my own purposes, I just hope those kinds of photos get voted down (instead of up simply because people think it's cool).
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RaptorUK
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Re: Is cropping regarded as P.P
In reply to Slynky, May 9, 2012

Slynky wrote:

I don't think I would ever disallow HDR. It's a tricky subject to even determine if done correctly. Disallowing it because a lot of us hate the overdone look so many people seem to like seems like it might be overkill...as the saying goes, throwing the baby out with the bath water.

For my own purposes, I just hope those kinds of photos get voted down (instead of up simply because people think it's cool).

There is no accounting for taste . . .

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RossAndrew
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Re: Is cropping regarded as P.P
In reply to Mike Ronesia, May 9, 2012

If I want to create a photo as a peace of art, where the dimensions will play a major part in the overall appearance surly this should be aloud in a challenge. Even if the processing rules ask for miner editing. I can understand huge changers in colour and shading not being aloud, but cropping should been seen as part of artistic value as a hole, not as a compromise.

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barb_s
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Re: Is cropping regarded as P.P
In reply to RaptorUK, May 9, 2012

I had asked a host recently if tonemapping would be allowed when "no HDR" was specified. Since it's one photo, not a composite, I thought of it as just another tool to improve a single photo. I did not enter because even wikipedia refers to tonemapping in the HDR page, so the definition of HDR is still up for interpretation.
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jrtrent
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Re: Is cropping regarded as P.P
In reply to barb_s, May 9, 2012

barb_s wrote:

I did not enter because even wikipedia refers to tonemapping in the HDR page, so the definition of HDR is still up for interpretation.

The vast majority of pictures I've taken since getting an E-300 with Olympus Studio 2.0 several years back have been tonemapped, either after the fact using "auto tone correction" in Olympus Studio, or at the time of capture with features like Olympus's "gradation auto" setting or Nikon's active D-lighting. I'm sure many other makes/models make use of Apical's Iridix tonemapping technology or something similar, and it is on by default in some models and modes. People could easily be breaking the "no HDR" rule and not even be aware of it.

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jrtrent
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Re: Is cropping regarded as P.P
In reply to RossAndrew, May 9, 2012

And sometimes cropping is just a way to actually get the picture you thought you framed at the time of capture. Viewfinder's with 95% accuracy (the majority of budget DSLR's) often leave an unwanted surprise around the edges of the picture, and the optical viewfinders on many cameras are only a bit better than 80% accurate.

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Deleted pending purge
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Re: Is cropping regarded as P.P
In reply to jrtrent, May 9, 2012

I think this No-HDR rule came to be only because of sloppily done post-processing works, while the same in-camera process can be said to be subtle, doesn't degrade the photo and thus is not easily detected. So it's not the question of the process itself, it's rather an inability or tastelessnes in ts application. It kinda got HDR so bad a name that many just don't want to see it, but not because of the tool...
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Mike Ronesia
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Re: Is cropping regarded as P.P
In reply to Deleted pending purge, May 9, 2012

Bottom line is HDR done properly should be all but undetectable. You would have to have working knowledge of the cameras sensor and DR to even start. OldArrow is probably right about hosts trying to avoid the cartoon like photos people pass off as HDR. For me Tone curve falls under basic PP like cropping. I often crop just to straiten out my shot as I hate crooked photos. Merging photos fall under advanced PP and should not be used in challenges that state basic or no PP.
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win13
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Re: Is cropping regarded as P.P
In reply to win13, May 15, 2012

win13 wrote:

Mike Ronesia wrote:

In my opinion cropping is as basic as post processing gets. I would never not allow it.

HDR is when you combine multiple shots of the same scene taken at different exposures so you can capture more shadow and highlight detail then the camera sensor can get in one shot. It is often done very poorly and I would consider it advanced post processing.
--
It's easier to ask for forgiveness then to ask for permission.

Hi Mike,

Re HDR look-alike? If you set the Oly E-5 to (art10)Dynamic Tone filter or iEnhance filter it looks like a HDR photo, but it has not been processed only a filter is being used, would that then DQ me in comps that state No HDR...

Win from Sunny Thailand.

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Kan Win

Below are the 3 examples

Next the

and then the dramatic one

All I did was to re-size them.

Thank you for looking and your feed-back.

Win
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