Another OM-D trap to watch out for...

Started May 9, 2012 | Discussions
Louis_Dobson
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Another OM-D trap to watch out for...
May 9, 2012

Dark noise subtraction switches off in burst mode.

Or, to put it more simply, long exposures have to be in single shot mode or you will get horrid noise. Mildly annoying if you know, a disaster if you don't (ask me how I found out...).

By the way, I do like this camera, a lot. The basic functions work very well, and although I'll be doing the testing to confirm today, the "IQ" (a much mis-used phrase) seems to be exceptional. This would be a very good camera if it were full sized, as a tiny camera it is a small miracle.

But it is full of traps for the unwary and has, in my opinion, more than the usual number of quirks, configuration limitations, firmware annoyances and stupid default choices, and I will carry on finding them, complaining about them, and warning people about them. It doesn't mean I'm not, on balance, pleased with the camera. I'd rather have something with teeth-grindingly stupid minor annoyances than something with so-so IQ or neck-breaking mass.
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Raist3d
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Hm I thought that was true for every Olympus camera?
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 9, 2012

I don't think they work well with dark noise subtraction in burst mode. It's been a while, maybe I should double check, but it's also understandable why.

You can't just dark noise substract a series of shots like that.

Louis_Dobson wrote:

Dark noise subtraction switches off in burst mode.

Or, to put it more simply, long exposures have to be in single shot mode or you will get horrid noise. Mildly annoying if you know, a disaster if you don't (ask me how I found out...).

By the way, I do like this camera, a lot. The basic functions work very well, and although I'll be doing the testing to confirm today, the "IQ" (a much mis-used phrase) seems to be exceptional. This would be a very good camera if it were full sized, as a tiny camera it is a small miracle.

But it is full of traps for the unwary and has, in my opinion, more than the usual number of stupid traps, quirks, configuration limitations, firmware annoyances and stupid default choices, and I will carry on finding them, complaining about them, and warning people about them. It doesn't mean I'm not, on balance, pleased with the camera. I'd rather have something with teeth-grindingly stupid minor annoyances than something with so-so IQ or neck-breaking mass.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/acam
http://thegentlemansnapper.blogspot.com

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Louis_Dobson
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Re: Hm I thought that was true for every Olympus camera?
In reply to Raist3d, May 9, 2012

Could well be true for every Oly camera - it's been four years since I used them for that sort of thing.

If I'm doing a long exposure in uncertain but very dim light I switch on bracket, lock the remote, and go and have a cigarette. As far as I can see with the Oly, you have to walk back and do each shot one by one (annoying), and if you don't know that you get noisy shots ( very annoying).

Of course Live Time and Live Bulb help there, but I think I've found a nasty bug/feature there as well - but I'll double test before reporting it.

Raist3d wrote:

I don't think they work well with dark noise subtraction in burst mode. It's been a while, maybe I should double check, but it's also understandable why.

You can't just dark noise substract a series of shots like that.

Louis_Dobson wrote:

Dark noise subtraction switches off in burst mode.

Or, to put it more simply, long exposures have to be in single shot mode or you will get horrid noise. Mildly annoying if you know, a disaster if you don't (ask me how I found out...).

By the way, I do like this camera, a lot. The basic functions work very well, and although I'll be doing the testing to confirm today, the "IQ" (a much mis-used phrase) seems to be exceptional. This would be a very good camera if it were full sized, as a tiny camera it is a small miracle.

But it is full of traps for the unwary and has, in my opinion, more than the usual number of stupid traps, quirks, configuration limitations, firmware annoyances and stupid default choices, and I will carry on finding them, complaining about them, and warning people about them. It doesn't mean I'm not, on balance, pleased with the camera. I'd rather have something with teeth-grindingly stupid minor annoyances than something with so-so IQ or neck-breaking mass.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/acam
http://thegentlemansnapper.blogspot.com

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PapaRappa
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Re: Hm I thought that was true for every Olympus camera?
In reply to Raist3d, May 9, 2012

It's been true for many generations of Oly 4/3 and Micro 4/3 cameras but I guess it's good info for people who are coming in to the system as new users from Panasonic or other manufacturers.

Raist3d wrote:

I don't think they work well with dark noise subtraction in burst mode. It's been a while, maybe I should double check, but it's also understandable why.

You can't just dark noise substract a series of shots like that.

Louis_Dobson wrote:

Dark noise subtraction switches off in burst mode.

Or, to put it more simply, long exposures have to be in single shot mode or you will get horrid noise. Mildly annoying if you know, a disaster if you don't (ask me how I found out...).

By the way, I do like this camera, a lot. The basic functions work very well, and although I'll be doing the testing to confirm today, the "IQ" (a much mis-used phrase) seems to be exceptional. This would be a very good camera if it were full sized, as a tiny camera it is a small miracle.

But it is full of traps for the unwary and has, in my opinion, more than the usual number of stupid traps, quirks, configuration limitations, firmware annoyances and stupid default choices, and I will carry on finding them, complaining about them, and warning people about them. It doesn't mean I'm not, on balance, pleased with the camera. I'd rather have something with teeth-grindingly stupid minor annoyances than something with so-so IQ or neck-breaking mass.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/acam
http://thegentlemansnapper.blogspot.com

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PapaRappa

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Gakuranman
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Re: Another OM-D trap to watch out for...
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 9, 2012

Yea, made this mistake myself on a really important photo...

I daren't look at the raw data of the file for what I may see. Is there any way to correct this sort of noise in post?

Louis_Dobson wrote:

Dark noise subtraction switches off in burst mode.

Or, to put it more simply, long exposures have to be in single shot mode or you will get horrid noise. Mildly annoying if you know, a disaster if you don't (ask me how I found out...).

By the way, I do like this camera, a lot. The basic functions work very well, and although I'll be doing the testing to confirm today, the "IQ" (a much mis-used phrase) seems to be exceptional. This would be a very good camera if it were full sized, as a tiny camera it is a small miracle.

But it is full of traps for the unwary and has, in my opinion, more than the usual number of quirks, configuration limitations, firmware annoyances and stupid default choices, and I will carry on finding them, complaining about them, and warning people about them. It doesn't mean I'm not, on balance, pleased with the camera. I'd rather have something with teeth-grindingly stupid minor annoyances than something with so-so IQ or neck-breaking mass.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/acam
http://thegentlemansnapper.blogspot.com

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Raist3d
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In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 9, 2012

so other camera manufacturers- or some, still do the dark noise subtraction in bracketing situations or other modes like that. Interesting- didn't know! Should try with my K-5, hah!

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Bigbob Irwin
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Re: Another OM-D trap to watch out for...
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 9, 2012

Thanks for all your posts re menu findings and stuff. Just got the OMD yesterday was nearly chewing the desk waiting for the battery to charge but did try some push pull stuff in Raw with LR 4.1 think you will be pleased with this cam.

I am bookmarking your posts re settings and pleased you are sharing your findings and doing some of the legwork esp the one about the AF bracket size hope to see a Louise Dobson menu posted one day.

Cheers

Bob

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kiri
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Re: Another OM-D trap to watch out for...
In reply to Gakuranman, May 9, 2012

I've never done it, but perhaps you can take a shot with the same settings with lens cap on (so you get a black image) and then use that as the dark frame subtraction?

Gakuranman wrote:
Yea, made this mistake myself on a really important photo...

I daren't look at the raw data of the file for what I may see. Is there any way to correct this sort of noise in post?

Louis_Dobson wrote:

Dark noise subtraction switches off in burst mode.

Or, to put it more simply, long exposures have to be in single shot mode or you will get horrid noise. Mildly annoying if you know, a disaster if you don't (ask me how I found out...).

By the way, I do like this camera, a lot. The basic functions work very well, and although I'll be doing the testing to confirm today, the "IQ" (a much mis-used phrase) seems to be exceptional. This would be a very good camera if it were full sized, as a tiny camera it is a small miracle.

But it is full of traps for the unwary and has, in my opinion, more than the usual number of quirks, configuration limitations, firmware annoyances and stupid default choices, and I will carry on finding them, complaining about them, and warning people about them. It doesn't mean I'm not, on balance, pleased with the camera. I'd rather have something with teeth-grindingly stupid minor annoyances than something with so-so IQ or neck-breaking mass.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/acam
http://thegentlemansnapper.blogspot.com

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Detail Man
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Re: Another OM-D trap to watch out for...
In reply to kiri, May 9, 2012

kiri wrote:

I've never done it, but perhaps you can take a shot with the same settings with lens cap on (so you get a black image) and then use that as the dark frame subtraction?

It looks like RAW Therapee 4.x makes provisions for being able to do that. But, one wants the temperature of the image-sensor photo-sites during the dark-frame shot to be as close as possible of a match to the temperature when a shot is recorded. Thus recording at the same time is better

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digifan
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Re: Sorry but why...
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 9, 2012

...would you want to have dark frame substraction available in burst mode.

When in burst mode one would expect to actually use the burst, and at "X" fps ... I see no use for dark frame substraction.

When doing night scenes or in very dark environments where dark frame substraction is/should be activated, I'm in one shot mode.

It's also explicitly mentioned in every manual of every Oly camera I had E1, E420, E5, EP1.
OM-D E-M5 manual page 59 and 89.

Sorry, but it's just logic to me.

Louis_Dobson wrote:

Dark noise subtraction switches off in burst mode.

Or, to put it more simply, long exposures have to be in single shot mode or you will get horrid noise. Mildly annoying if you know, a disaster if you don't (ask me how I found out...).

By the way, I do like this camera, a lot. The basic functions work very well, and although I'll be doing the testing to confirm today, the "IQ" (a much mis-used phrase) seems to be exceptional. This would be a very good camera if it were full sized, as a tiny camera it is a small miracle.

But it is full of traps for the unwary and has, in my opinion, more than the usual number of quirks, configuration limitations, firmware annoyances and stupid default choices, and I will carry on finding them, complaining about them, and warning people about them. It doesn't mean I'm not, on balance, pleased with the camera. I'd rather have something with teeth-grindingly stupid minor annoyances than something with so-so IQ or neck-breaking mass.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/acam
http://thegentlemansnapper.blogspot.com

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amalric
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Another photographer immensely superior to his camera :) (n/t)
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 9, 2012
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Louis_Dobson
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Re: Sorry but why...
In reply to digifan, May 9, 2012

Well, it's nuts to me. Metering is invariably unreliable in very low light conditions (say a 30 second exposure) so the best bet is to set bracketing, continuous shooting, lock the button down on the remote, and go and sit down for five minutes while it does it. This way you have to hang about listening for the clicks so you can set off the next shot.

What's the benefit supposed to be of switching it off?

digifan wrote:
...would you want to have dark frame substraction available in burst mode.

When in burst mode one would expect to actually use the burst, and at "X" fps ... I see no use for dark frame substraction.

When doing night scenes or in very dark environments where dark frame substraction is/should be activated, I'm in one shot mode.

It's also explicitly mentioned in every manual of every Oly camera I had E1, E420, E5, EP1.
OM-D E-M5 manual page 59 and 89.

Sorry, but it's just logic to me.

Louis_Dobson wrote:

Dark noise subtraction switches off in burst mode.

Or, to put it more simply, long exposures have to be in single shot mode or you will get horrid noise. Mildly annoying if you know, a disaster if you don't (ask me how I found out...).

By the way, I do like this camera, a lot. The basic functions work very well, and although I'll be doing the testing to confirm today, the "IQ" (a much mis-used phrase) seems to be exceptional. This would be a very good camera if it were full sized, as a tiny camera it is a small miracle.

But it is full of traps for the unwary and has, in my opinion, more than the usual number of quirks, configuration limitations, firmware annoyances and stupid default choices, and I will carry on finding them, complaining about them, and warning people about them. It doesn't mean I'm not, on balance, pleased with the camera. I'd rather have something with teeth-grindingly stupid minor annoyances than something with so-so IQ or neck-breaking mass.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/acam
http://thegentlemansnapper.blogspot.com

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Digifan

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FrankyM
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Re: Another OM-D trap to watch out for...
In reply to Gakuranman, May 9, 2012

Lightroom does it automatically.

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Detail Man
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Re: Sorry but why...
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 9, 2012

Louis_Dobson wrote:

Well, it's nuts to me. Metering is invariably unreliable in very low light conditions (say a 30 second exposure) so the best bet is to set bracketing, continuous shooting, lock the button down on the remote, and go and sit down for five minutes while it does it. This way you have to hang about listening for the clicks so you can set off the next shot.

What's the benefit supposed to be of switching it off?

Assuming that the user has not the attention-span to forego immediate gratification (and have to wait twice as long for the recording of a shot to complete) is to assume that nobody desires to do exactly what you happen to like to do with the camera. Having a choice would be reasonable !

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dingenus
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Re: Another OM-D trap to watch out for...
In reply to Gakuranman, May 9, 2012

Start Viewer2 and use the slider 'Isolated point removal' under 'False color suppression'.

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texinwien
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What about Time-Lapse?
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 9, 2012

Isn't there a separate mode/functionality for time-lapse shots? I wonder whether that would do what you're looking for.

Could it be that burst is really designed for high speed shooting, and therefore any additional processing that could slow things down is foregone?

Pure speculation on my part - I've not worked with long-exposure burst or the time lapse mode.

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digifan
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Re: Quite right...
In reply to texinwien, May 9, 2012

texinwien wrote:

Isn't there a separate mode/functionality for time-lapse shots? I wonder whether that would do what you're looking for.

Could it be that burst is really designed for high speed shooting, and therefore any additional processing that could slow things down is foregone?

Burst IS for high speed shooting.

I think Olympus delivers so much customisation users expect every scenario to be available.

Some time ago there were threads of many complaining about too many automations on the modern camera's (scene modes etc.)

I think it's pretty logical a burst mode doesn't do dark frame substraction.
We still can think, or can't we?

Pure speculation on my part - I've not worked with long-exposure burst or the time lapse mode.

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Louis_Dobson
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Re: What about Time-Lapse?
In reply to texinwien, May 9, 2012

I don't think there is a built in time lapse, but there is Live Time and Live Bulb. I'm finding those a bit idiosyncratic though...

In the meantime I can see why people might want to switch off Dark Frame Subtraction is burst mode, but why force it off?

texinwien wrote:

Isn't there a separate mode/functionality for time-lapse shots? I wonder whether that would do what you're looking for.

Could it be that burst is really designed for high speed shooting, and therefore any additional processing that could slow things down is foregone?

Pure speculation on my part - I've not worked with long-exposure burst or the time lapse mode.

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Louis_Dobson
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Re: Quite right...
In reply to digifan, May 9, 2012

Hang on - it isn't being neutral here - it is actually actively switching DFS off ! And "burst" is not just "burst", it is also continuous shooting, which is what you want when bracketing.

Basically, Oly just don't seem to get bracketing. It can't be switched on in the drive menu, and they've made it a menace to use when you need DFS, by making DFS and continuous shooting mutually exclusive.

Who uses burst mode as a "burst" at long exposures? Nobody. So why force them to switch off DFS? Who uses burst mode as "continuous" at long exposures (long enough to want DFS)? Anyone bracketing night scenes. So why butt in and make it hard for them by disabling DFS?

I can see no cost whatever in leaving the user to set DFS on or off in burst mode (in other words, by doing nothing). Instead Oly have inserted a couple of lines of code that, if they do anything at all, will annoy people.

digifan wrote:

texinwien wrote:

Isn't there a separate mode/functionality for time-lapse shots? I wonder whether that would do what you're looking for.

Could it be that burst is really designed for high speed shooting, and therefore any additional processing that could slow things down is foregone?

Burst IS for high speed shooting.

I think Olympus delivers so much customisation users expect every scenario to be available.

Some time ago there were threads of many complaining about too many automations on the modern camera's (scene modes etc.)

I think it's pretty logical a burst mode doesn't do dark frame substraction.
We still can think, or can't we?

Pure speculation on my part - I've not worked with long-exposure burst or the time lapse mode.

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Louis_Dobson
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Re: Another photographer immensely superior to his camera :) (n/t)
In reply to amalric, May 9, 2012

I can't imagine what you think a smiley adds to your snide digs

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