Getting Over The Hump ...

Started May 4, 2012 | Discussions
Detail Man
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Getting Over The Hump ...
May 4, 2012

So, after much deep thought and obsession surrounding the E-M5's infamous "hump", followed by an equally profound sustained focus upon the E-M5's "hum", rather than discuss cute little fuzz-lined cases, straps, and matching booties for the little wonder-cam from Mount Olympus, ...

... I see no discussion whatsoever regarding what DPReview has reported to be the seeming relative ineffectivenes of the much anticipated additional 2 axes of linear-motion compensatory image-stabilization in the only application where such a thing is necessary and relevant - that is, when shooting close-up to the plane-of-focus. A tupence for any objective nonraving thoughts

Olymore
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Re: Getting Over The Hump ...
In reply to Detail Man, May 4, 2012

As you're obviously bored today....
No IS system is very effective when using macro, in lens or not.
Why is an IS system only usrful when using macro ?

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Detail Man
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Re: Getting Over The Hump ...
In reply to Olymore, May 4, 2012

Olymore wrote:

Why is an IS system only useful when using macro ?

That is a nonsensical question that bears no relation to what it is that the OP actually stated ...

No IS system is very effective when using macro, in lens or not.

A question or two for you : Why, then would or should a camera manufacturer build in, hype, and charge more money in retail cost for a camera system in order to include an image-stabilization system functionality that you assert above lacks meaningful effectiveness, and why would nobody point this out in the first place - before they and possibly others had so invested hard-earned cash?

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Olymore
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Re: Getting Over The Hump ...
In reply to Detail Man, May 4, 2012

Ok, I'll rephrase the question.
Why are the two additional axis of correction only useful in macro ?

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Detail Man
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Re: Getting Over The Hump ... A Deafening Post-Review Silence ...
In reply to Detail Man, May 4, 2012

Detail Man wrote:

... I see no discussion whatsoever regarding what DPReview has reported to be the seeming relative ineffectivenes of the much anticipated additional 2 axes of linear-motion compensatory image-stabilization in the only application where such a thing is necessary and relevant - that is, when shooting close-up to the plane-of-focus. A tupence for any objective nonraving thoughts.

Denial : The high priests bless the Great Humped One, annointing it with Gold ... but ... announce that 2 of those magical 5 IBIS axes fall just a bit short of all of those original glowing expectations:

IS for macro generally doesn't work all that well

Andy Westlake wrote:

Dorkooken wrote:

In the artice I read that IBIS stabilisation is not working well for macro shooting. (close distances)

Does this means it's not helping at all?

Image stabilization for macro is technically problematic; at high subject magnifications the IS doesn't just have to take into account the angular movement of the lens due to camera shake, but the translational movement of the lens's entrance pupil relative to the subject too.

As far as I'm aware, the only systems that promise to do this are the E-M5's '5-axis' IS and Canon's 'Hybrid IS', that's used in its 100mm F2.8 L IS USM Macro lens and several of its compacts. The Panasonic 45mm F2.8 OIS doesn't do this, and as a consequence OIS has very little effect at close focus distances. The Canon IS Macro lens does better, but even then the IS system is much less effective at close distances than it is in normal use.

So the short answer is no - the 45mm F2.8's OIS won't work much better for macro than the E-M5's in-body IS, if at all. The only thing that really works is still a tripod.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=41386008

Andy Westlake wrote:

Detail Man wrote:

Is the E-M5 linear motion compensation worse than that ? Do M43 lenses really accurately know and report the front nodal-point to plane-of-focus distance ? I have really been skeptical of how accurately all of that could occur - especially in the case of varifocal zoom lens-systems where internal elements move ...

Personally, I suspect that the E-M5 knows this information very well indeed for certain Olympus ZD lenses; most obviously the 12-50mm set to macro mode, the upcoming 60/2.8 Macro, and the Four Thirds 35/3.5 and 50/2 macros. But probably not through the lens reporting it to the body, instead by the IS system having the properties of these lenses already programmed-in. Obviously it also needs them to report the focus distance accurately, which means it could get less-accurate if you turn the lens reset function off in the menu.

For other lenses I'd expect the macro component of the IS system to be ineffective. There's no obvious way it could work with adapted manual focus macro lenses, for example.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=41386159

Andy Westlake wrote:

Detail Man wrote:

Here is the User Manual for the Canon's 'Hybrid IS' 100mm F2.8 L IS USM Macro lens:

http://gdlp01.c-wss.com/gds/2/0300003522/01/ef100f28lmacroisusm-en.pdf

At 1.0x magnification, they state 2 stops of effectiveness (at 0.5x magnification, 3 stops, etc.).

Here's my review of that very same lens:

http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/canon_100_2p8_is_usm_c16

The IS testing, including for macro, is on page 4.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=41386235

Optical Image Stabilization

The EF 100mm F2.8 L IS USM's party trick is its new Hybrid Image Stabilization, which Canon claims to be the first system that is genuinely effective at macro distances. Despite this the company only claims a benefit of 2 stops at 1:1 macro, as opposed to 4 stops at more 'normal' distances .

In use the stabilizer is near-silent, locking rapidly to give a viewfinder image that, for longer subject distances at least, is rock-steady. At distances shorter than about 1m, the stabilization starts to become visibly less effective .

http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/canon_100_2p8_is_usm_c16/4

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TrapperJohn
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IS has been extremely effective for me
In reply to Detail Man, May 4, 2012

I don't have a lab or instruments. What I do have is about a week and a half of using the EM5. I've used focal lengths from 7 to 400mm, all handheld, in good light and dim, shutter speeds anywhere from 1/8 to 1/4000, in studied compositions and quick shots, around 500 shots all told.

The number of motion blurred shots I've seen?

Zero.

Even with my large E3 body, I'd get some motion blur on handheld tele shots unless I paid attention. With the Pen, I saw quite a bit, even at 25mm, unless I watched shutter speed closely.

So I can't tell you it's X stops better than another system. I can say that it's the best I've ever used, by a wide margin. With the EM5, shutter speed isn't a concern for camera motion blur.

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Detail Man
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Getting Over The Hump - The Proof of the Pudding is in the Knowing
In reply to Olymore, May 4, 2012

Olymore wrote:

Ok, I'll rephrase the question.
Why are the two additional axis of correction only useful in macro ?

Linear jitter is only damaging in the field of macrophotography, which involves close-up photographs, typically of insects and plants; here, the objects may not be far away relative to the magnitude of the linear jitter .

A camera creates an angular representation of the world, mapping everything within its angular field of view onto an image sensor. In such optical systems, the linear motion becomes negligible for far away objects, but rotation must always be taken into account. The diminishing effect of translation on the angular field of view of a scene can be visualized with the diagram in Figure 7 .

Fig. 7, Page 6 : http://invensense.com/mems/gyro/documents/whitepapers/ImageStabilizationWhitepaper_051606.pdf

Note that when the camera’s frame of reference moves linearly, as in the diagram on the left, objects at A1, A2, and A3 find themselves at different angles within the camera's field of view. This effect is known as parallax. Objects that are further away will appear to move less within the angular field of view of the camera .

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Olymore
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Re: IS has been extremely effective for me
In reply to TrapperJohn, May 4, 2012

Ah but the man who doesn't own one will write a thesis telling you that it doesn't work and the reasons why.
Perhaps he should call himself 'theory man'

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DonovanDwyer
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Re: IS has been extremely effective for me
In reply to TrapperJohn, May 4, 2012

And that is HUGE. With all the specs and design aspects being constantly obsessed over in this forum, the fact that the OM-D allows you to not worry and just shoot, regardless of FL or shutter speed (and to a degree ISO) is a massive step forward. Hums/humps/strap lugs/finishes simply do not matter. Let's get our priorities straight people

TrapperJohn wrote:

I don't have a lab or instruments. What I do have is about a week and a half of using the EM5. I've used focal lengths from 7 to 400mm, all handheld, in good light and dim, shutter speeds anywhere from 1/8 to 1/4000, in studied compositions and quick shots, around 500 shots all told.

The number of motion blurred shots I've seen?

Zero.

Even with my large E3 body, I'd get some motion blur on handheld tele shots unless I paid attention. With the Pen, I saw quite a bit, even at 25mm, unless I watched shutter speed closely.

So I can't tell you it's X stops better than another system. I can say that it's the best I've ever used, by a wide margin. With the EM5, shutter speed isn't a concern for camera motion blur.

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Tim in upstate NY
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Re: Getting Over Yourself ...
In reply to Detail Man, May 4, 2012

. . . You really are just an attention seeking blowhard, when it's all said and done. Why not go take some photos with your m4/3 equipment and then post a few examples for everyone to admire?

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Detail Man
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Re: IS has been extremely effective for me
In reply to TrapperJohn, May 4, 2012

TrapperJohn wrote:

I don't have a lab or instruments. What I do have is about a week and a half of using the EM5. I've used focal lengths from 7 to 400mm, all handheld, in good light and dim, shutter speeds anywhere from 1/8 to 1/4000, in studied compositions and quick shots, around 500 shots all told.

The number of motion blurred shots I've seen?

Zero.

Even with my large E3 body, I'd get some motion blur on handheld tele shots unless I paid attention. With the Pen, I saw quite a bit, even at 25mm, unless I watched shutter speed closely.

So I can't tell you it's X stops better than another system. I can say that it's the best I've ever used, by a wide margin. With the EM5, shutter speed isn't a concern for camera motion blur.

Thank you for your "product testimonial". However, the reader cannot help but notice that your testimonial makes no mention whatsoever of having recorded a single test-shot at the close-up (lens-system front node to plane-of-focus) distances that are the very core issue of this thread ...

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Olymore
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Re: Getting Over The Hump - The Proof of the Pudding is in the Knowing
In reply to Detail Man, May 4, 2012

Yet most users report a significant improvement. Maybe they're all just trying to justify their purchase.

In addition their is the benefit of the stabilisation of the live view image, something that wasn't present in previous Olympuses.

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Detail Man
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Re: Your Appallingly Obtuse Response
In reply to Olymore, May 4, 2012

Olymore wrote:

Ah but the man who doesn't own one will write a thesis telling you that it doesn't work and the reasons why. Perhaps he should call himself 'theory man'.

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Tim in upstate NY
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Re: IS has been extremely effective for me
In reply to Olymore, May 4, 2012

Olymore wrote:

Ah but the man who doesn't own one will write a thesis telling you that it doesn't work and the reasons why.
Perhaps he should call himself 'theory man'

. . . How about 'hypothesis man'?

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DonovanDwyer
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Re: IS has been extremely effective for me
In reply to Tim in upstate NY, May 4, 2012

or "Asperger's Man"...

Tim in upstate NY wrote:

Olymore wrote:

Ah but the man who doesn't own one will write a thesis telling you that it doesn't work and the reasons why.
Perhaps he should call himself 'theory man'

. . . How about 'hypothesis man'?

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Detail Man
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Re: IS has been extremely effective for me
In reply to DonovanDwyer, May 4, 2012

TrapperJohn wrote:

I don't have a lab or instruments. What I do have is about a week and a half of using the EM5. I've used focal lengths from 7 to 400mm, all handheld, in good light and dim, shutter speeds anywhere from 1/8 to 1/4000, in studied compositions and quick shots, around 500 shots all told.

The number of motion blurred shots I've seen?

Zero.

Even with my large E3 body, I'd get some motion blur on handheld tele shots unless I paid attention. With the Pen, I saw quite a bit, even at 25mm, unless I watched shutter speed closely.

So I can't tell you it's X stops better than another system. I can say that it's the best I've ever used, by a wide margin. With the EM5, shutter speed isn't a concern for camera motion blur.

DonovanDwyer wrote:

And that is HUGE. With all the specs and design aspects being constantly obsessed over in this forum, the fact that the OM-D allows you to not worry and just shoot, regardless of FL or shutter speed (and to a degree ISO) is a massive step forward. Hums/humps/strap lugs/finishes simply do not matter. Let's get our priorities straight people

Thank you for your "product testimonial". However, the reader cannot help but notice that your testimonial makes no mention whatsoever of having recorded a single test-shot at the close-up (lens-system front node to plane-of-focus) distances that are the very core issue of this thread ...

or "Asperger's Man"...

If and when you demonstrate that you have the capacity to read and comprehend the OP, I will believe that you may (in sarcasm) discriminate against people of disability by slinging words at me ...

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Tim in upstate NY
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Re: IS has been extremely effective for me
In reply to DonovanDwyer, May 4, 2012

DonovanDwyer wrote:

or "Asperger's Man"...

. . . You're a genius Donovan. I just found this when Googling Asperger's:

"Have a formal style of speaking that is advanced for his or her age. For example, the child may use the word "beckon" instead of "call" or the word "return" instead of "come back."

http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/tc/aspergers-syndrome-symptoms

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Detail Man
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Re: Getting Over The Hump - The Proof of the Pudding is in the Knowing
In reply to Olymore, May 4, 2012

Olymore wrote:

Yet most users report a significant improvement.

The above statement could not be more vague . The only readers who would see your completely undocumented statement with no accomanying references as anything but a paltry dodge are readers who are (already) deep "in the tank" of a de-intellectualized and an incoherent world-view.

Maybe they're all just trying to justify their purchase.

Perhaps it is here you who feels some emotional compulsion to "justify their purchases". Why ?

In addition their is the benefit of the stabilisation of the live view image, something that wasn't present in previous Olympuses.

Irrelevant to the actual issue raised in the text of the OP. If I am ... "getting a little bored today", it appears that you are unable to restrain yourself from wafting your merry way towards irrelevance

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Olymore
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Re: Your Appallingly Obtuse Response
In reply to Detail Man, May 4, 2012

It is, because regardless of how many theories you put forward DPReview and user feedback pretty much all agrees that it is gains you significant (up to 2 stops ? ) advantage over the previous Olympus stabilisation system in most circumstances.

And that, at the end of the day, is all that matters.

Whether you choose to believe that is up to you.

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Detail Man
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Re: Getting Over The Hump ... So Which Is It ?
In reply to Detail Man, May 4, 2012

Conversations with the deaf, or shared visions with the blind (or perhaps both) ? You be the judge

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