5D3 vs D800 threads - Canon's conclusion from all of it?

Started May 4, 2012 | Discussions
Rickuz
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5D3 vs D800 threads - Canon's conclusion from all of it?
May 4, 2012

For all of us who remain envious of the D800's sensor, is it the superior dynamic range, the superior resolution, or both?

I ask because, for me, it is strictly the dynamic range that I lust for.

I always shoot high contrast scenes that can't be helped by GND-filters or by time consuming HDR techniques. Being able to pull clean shadow detail out of total darkness is a big deal for me. As for the extra megapixels, It is just a nice bonus, but not overly important.

It would be disappointing if Canon looked at the many D800 vs 5D3 discussions and concluded that any dissatisfaction on the part of Canon users is due to the disparity in resolution. That's really not it. Not for me. But I wonder to what extent that is true for everyone else. Thoughts?

If you could pick only one of these two features for the 5D3, what would it be? More DR or more MP?

Canon EOS 5D Mark III Nikon D800
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Rick Knepper
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Re: 5D3 vs D800 threads - Canon's conclusion from all of it?
In reply to Rickuz, May 4, 2012

As evidenced by the many threads in this forum showing software solutions, both issues can be overcome to varying degrees in the computer. I prefer resolution for cropping and framing decisions after the shot (no I can't take every lens I own with me to ensure the correct framing in the field ). Plus, the increased captured detail of more megapixels is beneficial to my form of photoging (not to say that DR isn't s uper beneficial also). I guess I'd have to say that I wouldn't want to compromise on either if possible.

Rickuz wrote:

For all of us who remain envious of the D800's sensor, is it the superior dynamic range, the superior resolution, or both?

I ask because, for me, it is strictly the dynamic range that I lust for.

I always shoot high contrast scenes that can't be helped by GND-filters or by time consuming HDR techniques. Being able to pull clean shadow detail out of total darkness is a big deal for me. As for the extra megapixels, It is just a nice bonus, but not overly important.

It would be disappointing if Canon looked at the many D800 vs 5D3 discussions and concluded that any dissatisfaction on the part of Canon users is due to the disparity in resolution. That's really not it. Not for me. But I wonder to what extent that is true for everyone else. Thoughts?

If you could pick only one of these two features for the 5D3, what would it be? More DR or more MP?

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bobn2
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Re: 5D3 vs D800 threads - Canon's conclusion from all of it?
In reply to Rickuz, May 4, 2012

Rickuz wrote:

For all of us who remain envious of the D800's sensor, is it the superior dynamic range, the superior resolution, or both?

I ask because, for me, it is strictly the dynamic range that I lust for.

I always shoot high contrast scenes that can't be helped by GND-filters or by time consuming HDR techniques. Being able to pull clean shadow detail out of total darkness is a big deal for me. As for the extra megapixels, It is just a nice bonus, but not overly important.

It would be disappointing if Canon looked at the many D800 vs 5D3 discussions and concluded that any dissatisfaction on the part of Canon users is due to the disparity in resolution. That's really not it. Not for me. But I wonder to what extent that is true for everyone else. Thoughts?

If you could pick only one of these two features for the 5D3, what would it be? More DR or more MP?

The truth is that they go together. More MP generally means more DR. Of course, like any rule there are exceptions, but for a given technology it tends to be the case that reducing pixel size on the same size sensor increases DR, and reducing pixel size on the same size sensor inevitably increases pixel count.

But, to answer your question, for me it is the increased DR and the increased operational and processing flexibility that brings which is the more important.
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davexl
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Come for the MP, stay for the DR
In reply to Rickuz, May 4, 2012

At first glance it is greater resolution that attracts me, but the greater DR is something that will only be truly appreciated after using it for a while. I look forward to seeing if I can actually get by without bracketing high DR scenes, and potentially doing it in one frame. That will take some getting used to. Each new advance will take a while to hone the best technique to take advantage of it.

Come for the MP, stay for the DR

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jffielde
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Re: 5D3 vs D800 threads - Canon's conclusion from all of it?
In reply to Rickuz, May 4, 2012

I agree with you 100%. I would pay to NOT have the resolution. 18-22 is about right for me, and more only adds inefficiency to my process in every single photo unnecessarily. If I has to pick, I would take 12MP over 36MP any day.

The DR would be really nice, though I would like to see more real-world comparisons of assistance provided by the added DR. That is, I can't really gauge a shot underexposed by 4 stops, and then pushed back up. I never do that. I would, however, love to see some shots of people at noon, properly exposed, with shadows on their faces lightened with fill light. That's the kind of in-a-pinch dynamic range that might help me in the real world sometimes.

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Steen Bay
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Re: 5D3 vs D800 threads - Canon's conclusion from all of it?
In reply to bobn2, May 4, 2012

bobn2 wrote:

Rickuz wrote:

For all of us who remain envious of the D800's sensor, is it the superior dynamic range, the superior resolution, or both?

I ask because, for me, it is strictly the dynamic range that I lust for.

I always shoot high contrast scenes that can't be helped by GND-filters or by time consuming HDR techniques. Being able to pull clean shadow detail out of total darkness is a big deal for me. As for the extra megapixels, It is just a nice bonus, but not overly important.

It would be disappointing if Canon looked at the many D800 vs 5D3 discussions and concluded that any dissatisfaction on the part of Canon users is due to the disparity in resolution. That's really not it. Not for me. But I wonder to what extent that is true for everyone else. Thoughts?

If you could pick only one of these two features for the 5D3, what would it be? More DR or more MP?

The truth is that they go together. More MP generally means more DR. Of course, like any rule there are exceptions, but for a given technology it tends to be the case that reducing pixel size on the same size sensor increases DR, and reducing pixel size on the same size sensor inevitably increases pixel count.

Wondering.. how much base ISO DR (normalized, print/8mp) would a 250mp FF sensor with 1.86 micron S100 pixels have? Something like 14 stops?

But, to answer your question, for me it is the increased DR and the increased operational and processing flexibility that brings which is the more important.
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Jurriaan Schalken
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Re: 5D3 vs D800 threads - Canon's conclusion from all of it?
In reply to Rickuz, May 4, 2012

I agree. The thing is for me, that the D800 is better in resolution AND dr range / noise. I like the high iso video of the 5d3 and the great internal video codec... but for stills, I will definitely NOT upgrade to 5d3 from 5d2.

The sensor technology seems to be basically the same as with the first 5d, and they've improved marginally every generation after that. I still think the files of the original 5d are most pleasing, if I check them even now.

I don't see major steps in sensor and image quality advancements with Canon.
It's time for a new generations. I hope this next generation.

The 5d3 seems a great camera in many ways, especially the body / af / high iso.
They've listened to their customers in many ways, that should be applauded.

But Nikon went all the way with a really great new sensor.
I will see what happens, I don't like Nikon bodies personally.
But the DR/noisefloor and resolution...

But i am not the kind of person to switch easily, i've been shooting Canon for 10 years and i know the system very well. I like Canon and their european service is great.

Here's hoping for a next generation sensor in the 5d4.

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DigVis
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Re: 5D3 vs D800 threads - Canon's conclusion from all of it?
In reply to Steen Bay, May 4, 2012

Steen Bay wrote:

Wondering.. how much base ISO DR (normalized, print/8mp) would a 250mp FF sensor with 1.86 micron S100 pixels have? Something like 14 stops?

According to bobn2's sensorgen, a S100 has 11.5 stop DR per pixel. Unless I'm mistaken, a 8 mp FF-sensor would have a pixel size of 10.4µm.

Assuming uncorrelated noise (no banding), the noise increases by the square root of the area increase, i.e. by a factor of 10.4 / 1.86. If we assume a smooth intensity function in the highlights, we can sum the saturation capacities over the area which means a factor of (10.4/1.86)^2. In total, the DR will increase by a factor of (10.4/1.86)^2 / (10.4/1.86) = 10.4/1.86 ≈ 5.6 times. I.e. 2.5 stops. The resulting sensor would therefore have a DR of 14.0 stops.

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rwbaron
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Re: 5D3 vs D800 threads - Canon's conclusion from all of it?
In reply to bobn2, May 4, 2012

bobn2 wrote:

Rickuz wrote:

For all of us who remain envious of the D800's sensor, is it the superior dynamic range, the superior resolution, or both?

I ask because, for me, it is strictly the dynamic range that I lust for.

I always shoot high contrast scenes that can't be helped by GND-filters or by time consuming HDR techniques. Being able to pull clean shadow detail out of total darkness is a big deal for me. As for the extra megapixels, It is just a nice bonus, but not overly important.

It would be disappointing if Canon looked at the many D800 vs 5D3 discussions and concluded that any dissatisfaction on the part of Canon users is due to the disparity in resolution. That's really not it. Not for me. But I wonder to what extent that is true for everyone else. Thoughts?

If you could pick only one of these two features for the 5D3, what would it be? More DR or more MP?

The truth is that they go together. More MP generally means more DR. Of course, like any rule there are exceptions, but for a given technology it tends to be the case that reducing pixel size on the same size sensor increases DR, and reducing pixel size on the same size sensor inevitably increases pixel count.

But, to answer your question, for me it is the increased DR and the increased operational and processing flexibility that brings which is the more important.
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Bob,

What would you expect the ISO 100 DR to be of a FF sensor based on the sensels of the 60D? By rough approximation it should be 45+ MP.

Bob
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KatManDEW
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Re: 5D3 vs D800 threads - Canon's conclusion from all of it?
In reply to Rickuz, May 4, 2012

I remember basically two camps over the past few years. One camp said they didn't care about any more pixels, but wanted more DR and less noise. And better AF would be nice. The other camp wanted more pixels and less noise, and wouldn't complain if the AF was improved. Neither camp really got the main thing they wanted...

I think Canon got caught with their pants down, and slapped the 1DX AF into a 7D body, with a newer version of the 5DII sensor. Period.

I have a 5DIII and I am impressed with it. But I've been shooting a 60D and 7D, and the 5DIII is my first FF. So my impression of the 5DIII is tainted by the FF advantages. It's basically a poor man's 1DX, or FF 7D, which is not what I was hoping for. It has taken the place of my 7D, and then some... But I was hoping for a 5D in 5D style, with more pixels and better DR, and marginally improved AF, like maybe the 7D AF. The D800 fits that description, with top of the line AF thrown in to boot.

I'm waiting to see if and what Canon does to respond to the D800. And also to see how Nikon responds to the 5DIII (maybe a body with less MP and more FPS). I don't want to shoot two systems. I'll get a high MP 5D to go with my 5DIII, if a high MP version comes along soon (provided it's competitive with Nikon/Sony DR).

Both Canon and Nikon have until early 2013 to win me over. If Nikon beats Canon to the plate with a poor man's D4 to compete with the 5DIII, I hate to think what I will be doing this time next year (I hate selling stuff online...).

And BTW: I really miss my 60D tilt screen when shooting my 5DIII. I don't care about a flip screen on a sports/action body, but for everything else I find the tilt screen very handy. I don't use it regularly, but don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got till it's gone...

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frederic fahraeus
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Lets put it this way!
In reply to Rickuz, May 4, 2012

Yep! if you are a professional or selling shots via stock-agencies, especially rightsmanaged stock, then the more DR, the better.

However if photography is some sort of a hobby, part-time or just for private works, then you wont notice or need any extra DR, to what you have already got.

'I know its fun to have, right, but its not a must, is it.

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eleison24
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Re: 5D3 vs D800 threads - Canon's conclusion from all of it?
In reply to KatManDEW, May 4, 2012

Canon's conclusion??? It will conclude that it created a great camera that the canon buyers we asking for... The only problem was that the company didn't use enough "duct tape"... will this "hit the mark".. no.. but that's what canon will erroneously conclude...

For the next iteration, expect more tape (regarding better image quality, better video, better, dynamic range, etc... maybe.. maybe not... but definitely more tape

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rpiotr01
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Re: 5D3 vs D800 threads - Canon's conclusion from all of it?
In reply to Rickuz, May 4, 2012

I think Canon's conclusion will be that, even if you listen to what people want and give them exactly what they say they want from you, they'll still howl about what you didn't do if someone is surprised to see someone else do it better.

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meland
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Re: 5D3 vs D800 threads - Canon's conclusion from all of it?
In reply to rpiotr01, May 4, 2012

rpiotr01 wrote:

I think Canon's conclusion will be that, even if you listen to what people want and give them exactly what they say they want from you, they'll still howl about what you didn't do if someone is surprised to see someone else do it better.

Agreed.

One problem with asking the public what they want in future products is that the majority don't really know. Not being camera designers, or having knowledge of what technology is available, most people simply can not envisage what future products could or should be like.

Maybe it's time to revisit producing concept cameras to test public reaction like Canon did some years ago with Colani. Having said that the public reaction at the time was not particularly enthusiastic. Perhaps the designs were just too outlandish, although they certainly gave a taste of how cameras would come to look in the following years.

Given the wildly conflicting opinion in this and other forums it's probably best if the designers and product development teams just get on with it and produce the best they can without consulting Joe Public at all.

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Yomama
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Re: 5D3 vs D800 threads - Canon's conclusion from all of it?
In reply to rpiotr01, May 4, 2012

Why do we always have to conclude on things?? The conclusion is that Canon 5D3 is not only competing against its predecessor but all the other camera makers in the market. End of story.

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carlk
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Re: 5D3 vs D800 threads - Canon's conclusion from all of it?
In reply to rpiotr01, May 4, 2012

That's really an old time thinking. You listen to customer's needs but don't design your products by them. In this day and age a business won't survive unless it keeps improving AND INNOVATING especially if you want to stay the market leader. No one has told Steve Jobs about the need of an iPhone. On the other hand you can't accuse Nokia or Research in Motion for not listening to their customer's need.

rpiotr01 wrote:

I think Canon's conclusion will be that, even if you listen to what people want and give them exactly what they say they want from you, they'll still howl about what you didn't do if someone is surprised to see someone else do it better.

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DigVis
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Re: 5D3 vs D800 threads - Canon's conclusion from all of it?
In reply to rwbaron, May 4, 2012

rwbaron wrote:

What would you expect the ISO 100 DR to be of a FF sensor based on the sensels of the 60D? By rough approximation it should be 45+ MP.

Assuming uncorrelated noise (no banding), the DR increase from subsampling 47 MP to 8 MP is log2(sqrt(47/8)) ≈ 1.3 stops. The 10.8 DR/pixel of the 60D would become 12.1 @ 8 MP.

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nekrosoft13
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Re: 5D3 vs D800 threads - Canon's conclusion from all of it?
In reply to KatManDEW, May 4, 2012

I also own a 5DIII, and i see next few months not in good light.

A) nikon likelly will release a new FF body with 20-24MP at around 2000-2500 price range. What that will do is totally destroy 5DIII resale value automatically dropping it to about same range or less.

B) Canon releasing high MP body, with two possible outcomes, with current screwed up canon pricing, they might want to charge 4000-4500 for it, or if canon tried to be competive, it will price it around 3000, and again it will hurt 5DIII value.

KatManDEW wrote:

I remember basically two camps over the past few years. One camp said they didn't care about any more pixels, but wanted more DR and less noise. And better AF would be nice. The other camp wanted more pixels and less noise, and wouldn't complain if the AF was improved. Neither camp really got the main thing they wanted...

I think Canon got caught with their pants down, and slapped the 1DX AF into a 7D body, with a newer version of the 5DII sensor. Period.

I have a 5DIII and I am impressed with it. But I've been shooting a 60D and 7D, and the 5DIII is my first FF. So my impression of the 5DIII is tainted by the FF advantages. It's basically a poor man's 1DX, or FF 7D, which is not what I was hoping for. It has taken the place of my 7D, and then some... But I was hoping for a 5D in 5D style, with more pixels and better DR, and marginally improved AF, like maybe the 7D AF. The D800 fits that description, with top of the line AF thrown in to boot.

I'm waiting to see if and what Canon does to respond to the D800. And also to see how Nikon responds to the 5DIII (maybe a body with less MP and more FPS). I don't want to shoot two systems. I'll get a high MP 5D to go with my 5DIII, if a high MP version comes along soon (provided it's competitive with Nikon/Sony DR).

Both Canon and Nikon have until early 2013 to win me over. If Nikon beats Canon to the plate with a poor man's D4 to compete with the 5DIII, I hate to think what I will be doing this time next year (I hate selling stuff online...).

And BTW: I really miss my 60D tilt screen when shooting my 5DIII. I don't care about a flip screen on a sports/action body, but for everything else I find the tilt screen very handy. I don't use it regularly, but don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got till it's gone...

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carlk
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Re: 5D3 vs D800 threads - Canon's conclusion from all of it?
In reply to Rickuz, May 4, 2012

The first thing for me is 36MP. Many people don’t think we will ever need that many pixels or resolution but I don’t think that way. Like most things you can live with less but you will start to explore new possibilities when you got something better. I shoot for fun and it will be a fun thing for me to try print larger than I ever could with better resolution than I ever got. Not to mention it opens up more cropping possibilities. For me often times what stopped me from cropping is it will end up with too few pixels left. When people say just frame right the first time I don’t really think they know what they are talking about. Show me a few you think are perfectly framed I can tell you how we could crop to make them different if not better.

DR is more like a (very nice) icing on the cake when you look at what you usually do with a 36MP sensor. I imagine I will do a lot of tripod landscape/cityscape shots at low ISO with that camera. Besides I don’t know what the better DR will do for tonal quality (I imagine it will help) in addition to preserve more highlights and reduce shadow noise. Would I still buy the camera if it only has the MP but not the DR? It’s too hypothetical I can’t really answer definitively other than to say it will make it much less attractive.

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Zephir 750
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Re: 5D3 vs D800 threads - Canon's conclusion from all of it?
In reply to Rickuz, May 4, 2012

Rickuz wrote:

For all of us who remain envious of the D800's sensor, is it the superior dynamic range, the superior resolution, or both?

I ask because, for me, it is strictly the dynamic range that I lust for.

I always shoot high contrast scenes that can't be helped by GND-filters or by time consuming HDR techniques. Being able to pull clean shadow detail out of total darkness is a big deal for me. As for the extra megapixels, It is just a nice bonus, but not overly important.

It would be disappointing if Canon looked at the many D800 vs 5D3 discussions and concluded that any dissatisfaction on the part of Canon users is due to the disparity in resolution. That's really not it. Not for me. But I wonder to what extent that is true for everyone else. Thoughts?

If you could pick only one of these two features for the 5D3, what would it be? More DR or more MP?

IMO, am afraid you can't have one without the other.

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