We're in fiscal trouble.

Started May 3, 2012 | Discussions
WoodMaven
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We're in fiscal trouble.
May 3, 2012

Seems we are past the tipping point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW5IdwltaAc&feature=youtu.be

Wilhelm, the WoodMaven

WoodMaven
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Re: We're in fiscal trouble.
In reply to WoodMaven, May 3, 2012
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Collett
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We need more.....
In reply to WoodMaven, May 3, 2012

We need more..... printing presses Stupid Greeks - just print more money! Oh... thats' right they are tied to the Euro and cannot, but we can

In all seriosuness, the point in the video that we all need to be aware of this problem and focus on it is key. This needs to be our primary focus politically - much more important than all the other political issues IMOHO.

WoodMaven wrote:

Seems we are past the tipping point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW5IdwltaAc&feature=youtu.be

Wilhelm, the WoodMaven

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Jim

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itchhh
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Let me ask a question....
In reply to WoodMaven, May 3, 2012

Arguably the best presentation on the debt crisis I've ever seen.

Let me ask you a question. Surely this information comes as no surprise to our elected officials. What if they are purposely crashing the dollar and the euro on purpose? Destroying the dollar and euro and replacing them with a IMF World fiat currency would remove national sovereignty… A new World Order. Now where did I hear that term used before??

"Give me control over a nations currency, and I care not who makes its laws.”
Baron M.A. Rothschild

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LeRentier
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Re: We're in fiscal trouble.
In reply to WoodMaven, May 3, 2012

Maybe we will see the day that no US airline will fly abroad, out of fear to see its aircrafts impounded for outstanding debts for kerosene and airport taxes.

Just imagine the crisis if people and businesses outside the US refuse dollars and demand payment in Swiss Francs, Yuan or Euro.

Did our friend Soros make a decision yet ?

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itchhh
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Other Mandatory Programs
In reply to WoodMaven, May 3, 2012

Based on the presentation at the 1:55 minute marker we see

Social Security at 773
Medicare at 478
Medicaid at 255
TARP at 35
and Other Mandatory Programs at 711

What the heck is Other mandatroy programs?

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Paljas
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Re: We're in fiscal trouble.
In reply to WoodMaven, May 3, 2012

WoodMaven wrote:

Seems we are past the tipping point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW5IdwltaAc&feature=youtu.be

I am very interested how knowledgable forum members view the message of this video. These are the numbers I have understood and watched growing in the past couple of years. I have never understood how the economic leaders were planning to resolve the situation.

Do you?

Is it factually incorrect?

Is it bending, selecting and spinning the facts?

Is it hysterical propaganda?

If there is truth in this, is it a problem that is quite easily solved?

Is it too late to solve?

How can it be solved?

Can the US just consume and borrow it's way out?

Is economics a mystical science above the understanding of average citizens?

In a smaller way I remember a similar economic scenario under our apartheid rulers. We were lucky to turn that around - but it was and still is painful

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Bill Randall
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Re: We're in fiscal trouble.
In reply to WoodMaven, May 3, 2012

Did the people of Greece recognize the problem or did they bury their heads in the sand? What will we do? We will continue to do what we have been doing - ignoring the problem.

I predict, nothing short of a complete economic collapse will wipe that smile from Nancy Pelosi's face. Now she and Reed are not the only people to blame, but they are in charge along with Obama, and the problem is right there in front of them. Will they do as their predecessors have done? So far they have.

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bikinchris
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Re: We're in fiscal trouble.
In reply to Paljas, May 3, 2012

Paljas wrote:

WoodMaven wrote:

Seems we are past the tipping point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW5IdwltaAc&feature=youtu.be

I am very interested how knowledgable forum members view the message of this video. These are the numbers I have understood and watched growing in the past couple of years. I have never understood how the economic leaders were planning to resolve the situation.

Do you?

Nope

Is it factually incorrect?

For the most part, yes

Is it bending, selecting and spinning the facts?

Partly

Is it hysterical propaganda?

No, but it is being used for political reasons

If there is truth in this, is it a problem that is quite easily solved?

No

Is it too late to solve?

Almost

How can it be solved?

1. Every single department in the government needs to cut their own budget.

2. We need to consolidate all offices that do work of the same kind and reduce the amount of redundant work done.

3. Welfare as we know it has to end. Workfare would be a better term. Even people in wheelchairs can greet people and direct them to where they need to go.

4. Military spending has been one of the largest reasons for the budget problems. The military just finished buying 187 half billion dollar a piece F-22 planes that cannot be used in combat because they are defective and could kill the pilots. The supposed Soviet plane they were built to counter never existed.

5. Corporate welfare and allowing coporations to avoid billions of dollars of taxes by moving money overseas has to stop.

6. All citizens need to pay their taxes and pay a fair share. Buffett is right. Income is income whether it comes from investments or a day to day paycheck.

So the answer is all of the above. Everyone needs to pay their taxes, we need to cut the budget drastically and consolidate efforts. We almost had the right direction under Clinton for a while, but we went the wrong direction in Bush badly and then Obama hasn't been as good as I had hoped.

Can the US just consume and borrow it's way out?

Not in my opinion. But I have only taken basic economics courses.

Is economics a mystical science above the understanding of average citizens?

Somewhat, it seems. Since economists are never in agreement.

In a smaller way I remember a similar economic scenario under our apartheid rulers. We were lucky to turn that around - but it was and still is painful

IF we get out of this, everyone has to be willing to hurt. Politicians are not brave enough to do it in my opinion.

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lownine
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Re: We're in fiscal trouble.
In reply to Paljas, May 3, 2012

Paljas wrote:

WoodMaven wrote:

Seems we are past the tipping point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW5IdwltaAc&feature=youtu.be

I am very interested how knowledgable forum members view the message of this video. These are the numbers I have understood and watched growing in the past couple of years. I have never understood how the economic leaders were planning to resolve the situation.

I wouldn't worry about "economic leaders." Worry about "political leaders." Who says they want to resolve anything? Politicians cannot see issues or circumstances or problems. They see weapons. Everything that comes to their eyes, ears, and cerebral cortex is evaluated as a potential weapon to use on their enemies and if you "resolve" something, you've taken a weapon out of your arsenal. They care about two things: winning and themselves. Period.

After many, many programs intended to 'help" homeowners, the housing market is more beat down than ever. I can't tell if they're too dogmatic and proud to admit they're wrong or if they need it to be beaten down so that words like, "inherited", and "...got us into this mess in the first place..." have some resonance.

I wish I had a thesaurus devoted to the word, "despise", because that's the only one I can come up with when I think of the politicians.

Stu

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Bill Randall
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USA Debt Clock in Real Time ....
In reply to WoodMaven, May 3, 2012

USA Debt Clock - Real time:

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

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itchhh
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... some thoughts
In reply to Paljas, May 3, 2012

Paljas wrote:

WoodMaven wrote:

Seems we are past the tipping point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW5IdwltaAc&feature=youtu.be

I am very interested how knowledgable forum members view the message of this video. These are the numbers I have understood and watched growing in the past couple of years. I have never understood how the economic leaders were planning to resolve the situation.

These are all serious and valid questions.

Do you?

I'm not sure anybody truly understands the scope of the problem that we're facing other than the Bankers and leaders of the Multi-National Corporations. I think our elected officials may have an idea like you and I do, but they're so blinded with their own concerns and re-election that they'll be caught off guard like the majority of the population.

Is it factually incorrect?

Rather than say "Is it factually incorrect?" with leads me to believe your bias, I would simply say Is it factual? Answer, it is and it isn't. Do those reported numbers reflect a problem? Yes, but I would argue that not everything is in those numbers. Very rarely does the government tell a direct lie but often will tell partial truths and I think that’s exactly what they're doing in this report. For the numbers that they can't hide they use statements like "Other Mandatory Programs"

Is it bending, selecting and spinning the facts?

The government does this for everything else 100% of the time. Why would a budget be any different?

Is it hysterical propaganda?

"Hysterical propaganda"? Where there is smoke there is usually a fire. Although the vast majority have no idea of what’s going on directly, people are starting to wake up. The use of the word "hysterical" is appropriate since when this problem is fully out of the shadows the very way we live our lives will change dramatically... and for the immediate time being for the worse. Hysterical? You bet!

If there is truth in this, is it a problem that is quite easily solved?

Is it a problem that is quite easily solved? I don't think so. To fix this problem would require a fundamental change in how we govern our societies and the collective realization that we can't continue to live this way. We would need elected politicians to stand in the gap and tell the populace the inconvenient truth regardless of their personal outcome. People would have realized that living in an entitlement society can't work just as profit at any expense is unacceptable. Frankly this problem is bigger than any future President. Remember Kennedy?

Is it too late to solve?

Is it too late to solve? I would say yes. Two points

1. I posted a video regarding a Demographic Winter where in short the older are getting older requiring more public services and there being less young people filling their positions generating taxable income.

2. There is simply too much debt which is what our currency is based on to ever get back to equilibrium.

How can it be solved?

Yes. I think the ultimate destination is to collapse the dollar and euro where the IMF or similar institution can come to the rescue with a new world currency. Of course the acceptance of this new currency means the loss of national sovereignty. A New World Order... Now where did I hear that before? On a side note, the baby boomers in retirement... their savings will disappear getting one "unit" for 10 US dollars or something along those lines. One can say slavery is alive and well in the 21st century.

Can the US just consume and borrow it's way out?

Can the US just consume and borrow its way out? This is exactly why we're in the mess that we're in right now. What’s going to be really sad is when we as a nation have to produce durable goods like the rest of the world and we can't because we shipped all of our manufacturing overseas for cheaper labor. The US will be a 3rd World power.

Is economics a mystical science above the understanding of average citizens?

Regrettably yes! The average American is clueless to what’s going on around them or they are so polarized on the guise of Republicans vs. Democrats they can’t even think straight!

We are in deep $hit

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Chato
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By this logic
In reply to WoodMaven, May 3, 2012

WoodMaven wrote:

A little reinforcement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJRVjlggkIg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h8O7V-WxWQ&feature=youtu.be

Someone who buys a $400,000 dollar house, while having an income of 50k, can never get out of debt.

Let me whisper three magic words - Don't tell anyone...

"increase the revenue."

Dave

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Chato
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We have a lower debt to GDP ration than Germany
In reply to Collett, May 3, 2012

Collett wrote:

We need more..... printing presses Stupid Greeks - just print more money! Oh... thats' right they are tied to the Euro and cannot, but we can

In all seriosuness, the point in the video that we all need to be aware of this problem and focus on it is key. This needs to be our primary focus politically - much more important than all the other political issues IMOHO.

I agree, we should start paying down the debt. But sorry, no, it's not the end of the world, and it's really not that hard to do. The Progressive Caucus hjav issued a deficit reduction plan that by 2020 will reduce the debt to six trillion...

http://cpc.grijalva.house.gov/index.cfm?sectionid=70

Dave

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itchhh
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Re: By this logic
In reply to Chato, May 3, 2012

Chato wrote:

WoodMaven wrote:

A little reinforcement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJRVjlggkIg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h8O7V-WxWQ&feature=youtu.be

Someone who buys a $400,000 dollar house, while having an income of 50k, can never get out of debt.

Let me whisper three magic words - Don't tell anyone...

"increase the revenue."

Assuming that a $1 has the same purchasing power 20 years later then you would be correct. Although the tax system is broken, its not the main problem.

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Paljas
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Re: We're in fiscal trouble.
In reply to bikinchris, May 3, 2012

bikinchris wrote:

Paljas wrote:

WoodMaven wrote:

Seems we are past the tipping point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW5IdwltaAc&feature=youtu.be

I am very interested how knowledgable forum members view the message of this video. These are the numbers I have understood and watched growing in the past couple of years. I have never understood how the economic leaders were planning to resolve the situation.

Do you?

Nope

Is it factually incorrect?

For the most part, yes

Is it bending, selecting and spinning the facts?

Partly

Is it hysterical propaganda?

No, but it is being used for political reasons

If there is truth in this, is it a problem that is quite easily solved?

No

Is it too late to solve?

Almost

How can it be solved?

1. Every single department in the government needs to cut their own budget.

2. We need to consolidate all offices that do work of the same kind and reduce the amount of redundant work done.

3. Welfare as we know it has to end. Workfare would be a better term. Even people in wheelchairs can greet people and direct them to where they need to go.

4. Military spending has been one of the largest reasons for the budget problems. The military just finished buying 187 half billion dollar a piece F-22 planes that cannot be used in combat because they are defective and could kill the pilots. The supposed Soviet plane they were built to counter never existed.

5. Corporate welfare and allowing coporations to avoid billions of dollars of taxes by moving money overseas has to stop.

6. All citizens need to pay their taxes and pay a fair share. Buffett is right. Income is income whether it comes from investments or a day to day paycheck.

So the answer is all of the above. Everyone needs to pay their taxes, we need to cut the budget drastically and consolidate efforts. We almost had the right direction under Clinton for a while, but we went the wrong direction in Bush badly and then Obama hasn't been as good as I had hoped.

Can the US just consume and borrow it's way out?

Not in my opinion. But I have only taken basic economics courses.

Is economics a mystical science above the understanding of average citizens?

Somewhat, it seems. Since economists are never in agreement.

In a smaller way I remember a similar economic scenario under our apartheid rulers. We were lucky to turn that around - but it was and still is painful

IF we get out of this, everyone has to be willing to hurt. Politicians are not brave enough to do it in my opinion.

Thanks for your answers Chris. If I may trouble you for 3 more opinions.(I know I am pushing my luck!)

In what way is the video factually incorrect?

What relevance is the election of a President if none of the candidates/Parties is addressing these apparently crucial issues as a matter of priority and urgency?

Why is the the average American citizen so accepting and defensive of such an apparently flawed and dangerous situation?

There is probably much of which I am ignorant which contributes to my misunderstanding. It is a complex situation that is hard to simplify and harder to correct.

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bikinchris
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Re: We're in fiscal trouble.
In reply to Paljas, May 3, 2012

Paljas wrote:

Thanks for your answers Chris. If I may trouble you for 3 more opinions.(I know I am pushing my luck!)

In what way is the video factually incorrect?

What relevance is the election of a President if none of the candidates/Parties is addressing these apparently crucial issues as a matter of priority and urgency?

Why is the the average American citizen so accepting and defensive of such an apparently flawed and dangerous situation?

There is probably much of which I am ignorant which contributes to my misunderstanding. It is a complex situation that is hard to simplify and harder to correct.

I think Itchh answered all of your questions very well in only one answer. EVERYTHING is politicized and becomes a weapon. Especially in a presidential election year. The truth is trampled when it can be used against the "opponent" but we are all supposed to be on the same side.

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They also use the five layers of protection available.
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Layer 2: Follow the rules (Don't be the cause of traffic crashes)
Layer 3: Use Lane position (Discourage other drivers mistakes)
Layer 4: Hazard Avoidance (Avoid other drivers mistakes and road hazards)
Layer 5: Utilize passive protection (Use protection when all else fails)

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Chato
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The main problem
In reply to itchhh, May 3, 2012

itchhh wrote:

Chato wrote:

WoodMaven wrote:

A little reinforcement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJRVjlggkIg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h8O7V-WxWQ&feature=youtu.be

Someone who buys a $400,000 dollar house, while having an income of 50k, can never get out of debt.

Let me whisper three magic words - Don't tell anyone...

"increase the revenue."

Assuming that a $1 has the same purchasing power 20 years later then you would be correct. Although the tax system is broken, its not the main problem.

Is that we cut our revenue. 12 years ago, we were well on our way to completely eliminating the debt.

That's a FACT!

We then cut our revenue, to the lowest point in 80 Years and now wonder why we are in debt.

It's a Complete mystery, with every now and then some right wing commentator saying, "We have to cut Food Stamps, entitlements, building rails and roads; we have to cut education, ad infinitum....

But usually no one bothers to talk about WHY we have this debt in the first place.

So let me repeat this - We cut the revenue.

Dave
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Paljas
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Re: We're in fiscal trouble.
In reply to bikinchris, May 3, 2012

bikinchris wrote:

Paljas wrote:

Thanks for your answers Chris. If I may trouble you for 3 more opinions.(I know I am pushing my luck!)

In what way is the video factually incorrect?

What relevance is the election of a President if none of the candidates/Parties is addressing these apparently crucial issues as a matter of priority and urgency?

Why is the the average American citizen so accepting and defensive of such an apparently flawed and dangerous situation?

There is probably much of which I am ignorant which contributes to my misunderstanding. It is a complex situation that is hard to simplify and harder to correct.

I think Itchh answered all of your questions very well in only one answer. EVERYTHING is politicized and becomes a weapon. Especially in a presidential election year. The truth is trampled when it can be used against the "opponent" but we are all supposed to be on the same side.

Thank you. Just the same here. That is how it is. I suppose as good as it gets.
Who knows.

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WoodMaven
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Re: Other Mandatory Programs
In reply to itchhh, May 3, 2012

itchhh wrote:

Based on the presentation at the 1:55 minute marker we see

Social Security at 773
Medicare at 478
Medicaid at 255
TARP at 35
and Other Mandatory Programs at 711

What the heck is Other mandatroy programs?

Presidential vacations.

Wilhelm, the WoodMaven

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