D800E, searching for moire...

Started May 3, 2012 | Discussions
Robin Casady
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Re: D800E, searching for moire...
In reply to stany buyle, May 3, 2012

You might want to try a few more shots with your daughter further from the camera. The weave might not have been fine enough for the distances you used.
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Re: Here's moire on a bird with a d800
In reply to JohnWheeler, May 3, 2012

Interesting stuff here. John, how do you go about inspecting for this. So do you use anything other than 100% view and a grid search? I had to enlarge the parrot before I saw it, and it has a different form than I expected. Manyfeathers mentioned getting the same effect sometimes with a D700. I have seen it with man made stuff, but never on birds. Possible I just missed it.

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slidingmike
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Re: Moire is there and is easily removable with LR4 too
In reply to NektonFi, May 3, 2012

Actually you can see it pretty clearly on the right sleeve: a diagonal pattern that does not appear in the brushed image.

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Many Feathers
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Here's 100% crop
In reply to JohnWheeler, May 3, 2012

I think.... ? I really don't know how things work here with photos. I cropped and changed to jpg, sRGB, with no resizing (but I think I didn't resize the original one either). Still, different sizes come up.

If you can tell me how to get JUST a 100% crop to show up, I will do so. I'll also look for some other ones of my birds. These are our parrots though...taken closeup (I doubt you'd get this close to a bird in the wild and often with a flash. I'm thinking it might just only happen with Reba too (the blue and gold macaw). We have 6 birds...hmmm... I think it used to happen with our little budgie bird too. I'll go hunt around a bit.

I always thought it funny that people didn't think there was moire with birds, but perhaps, in the scheme of things, this is a pretty specific situation.

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Many Feathers
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the moire is in the feathers on her forehead
In reply to Bill Hollinger, May 3, 2012

Here's a smaller crop.

Reba is indeed a character. She is a blue and gold macaw, talks very well, but is a handful. I would say she is probably one of the prettiest of our birds, very independent and sometimes I think she must be a male and not a female (she was never dna sexed and she came to us named Reba). She is so different from our other birds and 3 of those I know are female. Ha.

I'm checking for moire in some other birdie photos. Maybe she's the only one, but I'm not sure.

Thanks for your interest

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kb2zuz
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Here's a good moire test...
In reply to stany buyle, May 3, 2012

I had an annoying problem a while back, was shooting an installation process that has a huge mesh screen (just taking document shots) and I figured I'd give our 39MP Hasselblad a go at it, because it never went outside the studio much (and it would give me the ability to crop details and such). After doing a couple test shots like this and looking at it at 100% I decided I'd be better off with a 35mm full-frame camera with an AA filter.

It mostly shows up in the plane of focus, now imaging if it was brighter and I was able to stop down to f/11 for this shot

The moire was so strong in this, I had to crank Phocus's moire removal all the way up to the point where it blurred most details (and still left some moire in places). I then had to blend the image with another non-corrected image to keep details where there was no moiré and manually clone and/or desaturate areas to remove what the moiré removal tool didn't get.
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GMack
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Re: Moire is there and is easily removable with LR4 too
In reply to NektonFi, May 3, 2012

I'm not seeing it here either, but the post below with the Hassleblad with the two workers with the screen between them shows it clearly as a nice rainbow of color. the black and white to color GIF above shows it too more in the B&W with the yellow channel enhanced (lower right corner)

Btw, your shirt maker is pretty lousy to need that much gathering in the arm seam allowance on the shirt body (all those puckers) to make the sleeve fit into it. Something I learned on some fashion shoot where the designer went nuts over some costume that was lousily constructed - or cheap with puckering in some areas and none in the opposite flip or mirror-image side.

Mack

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JohnWheeler
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Re: Here's moire on a bird with a d800
In reply to BackInTheGame, May 3, 2012

BackInTheGame wrote:

Interesting stuff here. John, how do you go about inspecting for this. So do you use anything other than 100% view and a grid search? I had to enlarge the parrot before I saw it, and it has a different form than I expected. Manyfeathers mentioned getting the same effect sometimes with a D700. I have seen it with man made stuff, but never on birds. Possible I just missed it.

Hi BackInTheGame

BTW - Any fine structure including bird feathers are ripe for Moiré and other artifacts

I don't have a corner on the market on the best way to review images. I am sure many will provide good alternate approaches. I so reviews both at full image on scren as well as 100% on Grid. Here is what I look for

Large striation color/luminosity Moiré: Often shows up at less than 100% quite well yet so can additional false Moire. Any corrections done no less than 100% magnification. If I suspect subtle Moiré I amplify the Moiré to confirm its location to help determine what needs to repaired.

Adjacent Pixel luminosity separation (aka stair-steps, adjacent pixel bright/dark bands, and many other adjacent pixel anomalies) need to viewed at no less than 100% or they may not show at all

With all reviews in Photoshop I used a stamped or flattened Layer. Photoshop uses display shortcuts for speed with multiple Layers that can show anomalies that will not exist in a stamped/flattened/or fully merged Layer

On top of all that if when printing you end up downsampling for the particular print, anomalies can be introduced. I don't have a good answer for this one. I found fewer anomalies get introduced if you have already downsampled and viewed in Photoshop rather than letting the print driver do the downsampling. Mabe some RIP programs are better than others. I have just done my printing through Photoshop and Lightroom. Hope this was useful info.

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JohnWheeler
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Re: the moire is in the feathers on her forehead
In reply to Many Feathers, May 3, 2012

I really like the feathers.

The Moiré in these feathers at 100% are natural and not anomalies. This occurs when there are feathers crossing at angles with each other. FYI
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em_dee_aitch
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Re: D800E, searching for moire...
In reply to stany buyle, May 3, 2012

stany buyle wrote:

Good morning everybody,

Yesterday we were doing some further testing for D800 vs D800e for sharpness and moire in the studio of a friend of mine.

We dressed up my daugther specially for what we thought could/would bring moire while using the D800E and taking over 100 shots alltogether....

... samples and more on my website:

http://www.nikonuser.info/fotoforum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1632&sid=e6d7bdf711452219ecb520aa5e590b2b

Stany -

I'm glad to see you experimenting, but I don't think you're choosing the right fabrics. Speaking from event photography experience I strongly believe that the worst moiré offenders are patterned or textured men's suits.

Of course even when you find an offending target, it will only produce moiré in a specific magnification range. So basically if you shoot the same guy in a suit all day long, it will only ruin a percentage of your shots. It is also sometimes a problem with screens and veils, as the other commenter demonstrated just a few posts above.

The reality it that it will happen, not that often, but it will on occasion totally screw up a shot that you really need. If you do this as hobby only and don't have to worry about the embarrassment of having to apply a suboptimal fix to an otherwise outstanding shot, then it's not a problem. If you do it for money then treat it as a real risk and respect it, probably by owning both versions of the camera.

Calling someone a FUD over this or trying to argue that the entire issue is FUD is just entirely ignorant.

As to the software fixing it, you can fix the chroma only. The luminance is not reconstructable.

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David Hill
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Joesiv
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Re: D800E, searching for moire...
In reply to Robin Casady, May 3, 2012

Robin Casady wrote:

You might want to try a few more shots with your daughter further from the camera. The weave might not have been fine enough for the distances you used.

Indeed, it seems a lot of people who are testing for moire don't realize that the worst moire happens when detail goes beyond what the actual pixels can resolve. So getting the weave pattern to be at a sub pixel size is where it will show up.

Also higher contrast detail will show it more than such soft contrast fabric.

If you look closely you can start to see color moire just start to show up in some of the highlighted samples.

I'd be curious to see your further tests.

Thanks for posting them!

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JohnWheeler
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Re: D800E, searching for moire...
In reply to em_dee_aitch, May 3, 2012

em_dee_aitch wrote:

If you do it for money then treat it as a real risk and respect it, probably by owning both versions of the camera.............

As to the software fixing it, you can fix the chroma only. The luminance is not reconstructable.

Sage advice David. I agree that getting the shots right without Moiré is the most productive and assured way to avoid the issue whether it is purchasing both cameras and using them appropriately depending on subject and in addition taking shots tethered and checking at 100%, or covering your bets with multiple shots at slightly different camera to subject distance or slightly different focal lengths.

If still needed using different Raw Converters is worth trying and that failing some of the software techniques (which have real limitations). I have found also that the Chroma component is the easiest to correct yet some Luminosity components can be corrected when associated with the Chroma striations. Here are links to example problems and technique I posted about a year ago. It will not work on just luminosity striations nor on adjacent pixel artifacts. It does a decent job on chroma or chroma combined with luminosity striations (all IMHO of course):

http://jkwphoto.blogspot.com/2011/05/new-way-to-remove-moire.html
https://vimeo.com/23508129

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RGT5
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Re: D800E, searching for moire...
In reply to JohnWheeler, May 4, 2012

John: Many thanks for posting your comments and links. I am sure I missed it, is Part 2 available on Vimeo? It would be great to identify the best methods to avoid moire, what to look for etc. Just received my D800e. D3s and D3 have worked well for me. Hopefully this new tool will work as well. I am not as interested in heavy post processing.

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stany buyle
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For David Hill //Re: D800E, searching for moire...
In reply to em_dee_aitch, May 4, 2012

em_dee_aitch wrote:

Stany -

Calling someone a FUD over this or trying to argue that the entire issue is FUD is just entirely ignorant.

I didn't call anybody FUD, didn't even know what FUD meant(until I googled), I only replied on a reaction where that FUD-expression was used in the headline without giving attention to it rather than the contents of that reaction...
Sorry if this seemed offending, it wasn't me...

BTW, I noticed the subtle moire pattern in my D800E sample after it was explained with the GIF animation but didn't notice it before. Anyhow it's not an issue that disturbs me and I guess, -If you really want- it's easy rempovable with the moiré control button in NX, LR and other software as someone mentioned.
And, I definitively want a better monitor now. Eizo I will go for...

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David Hill
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Stany Buyle
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I like better one good picture in a day than 10 bad ones in a second..

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stany buyle
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About moire, with my former Nikon, Canon, Fuji cams...
In reply to stany buyle, May 4, 2012

What I notice is that many people, -including myself - are giving more attention and observing time for moire now that the D800E exists in the Nikon line... I have to remind myself and take into consideration that moire has always been a possible issue that occured also once and a while with my former Nikon (D1x -> D3/D700) cams, my Canon 5D and probably even with my Fuji S5pro despite the too strong AA filter S5pro had...

After having taken thousands of pictures with diff cams where billiard cloth was involved, I saw once and a while a moire pattern, just like I rather often saw -sometimes strong- moire patterns in macro pictures where facets of insects were the subject.

Here underneath a picture I took with my Canon 5D. The picture was bad, wrong DOF and more and by no means "a keeper", but I kept a small copy of it because of the moire pattern... If I would start searching among all pictures on my HDs with more or less moire, I'm sure I would find many...

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Stany Buyle
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I like better one good picture in a day than 10 bad ones in a second..

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Press Correspondent
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A beautiful lady!
In reply to stany buyle, May 4, 2012

Forget moire, who cares...

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stany buyle
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Re: A beautiful lady!
In reply to Press Correspondent, May 4, 2012

Press Correspondent wrote:

A beautiful lady!

If you mean my daughter-weetheart, thanks.

Forget moire, who cares...

I do care about moire and artefacts, but if a barely visible pattern is the worst I can get after going intentionally in search to create moire, than I can perfectly live with that.
As I wrote before, all my former cams once and a while exhibited moire...

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Stany Buyle
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em_dee_aitch
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Re: D800E, searching for moire...
In reply to JohnWheeler, May 4, 2012

JohnWheeler wrote:

em_dee_aitch wrote:

If you do it for money then treat it as a real risk and respect it, probably by owning both versions of the camera.............

As to the software fixing it, you can fix the chroma only. The luminance is not reconstructable.

Sage advice David. I agree that getting the shots right without Moiré is the most productive and assured way to avoid the issue whether it is purchasing both cameras and using them appropriately depending on subject and in addition taking shots tethered and checking at 100%, or covering your bets with multiple shots at slightly different camera to subject distance or slightly different focal lengths.

If still needed using different Raw Converters is worth trying and that failing some of the software techniques (which have real limitations). I have found also that the Chroma component is the easiest to correct yet some Luminosity components can be corrected when associated with the Chroma striations. Here are links to example problems and technique I posted about a year ago. It will not work on just luminosity striations nor on adjacent pixel artifacts. It does a decent job on chroma or chroma combined with luminosity striations (all IMHO of course):

http://jkwphoto.blogspot.com/2011/05/new-way-to-remove-moire.html
https://vimeo.com/23508129

John -

Thanks for posting that video. That is a new one on me, and it looks extremely useful. I had an engagement shoot last weekend that produced some nasty moiré, on a stock D3s no less, so I will probably try it on that.

To caveat what I meant when I said the "luminance is not reconstructable:"

1. Not with automated tools as they exist today, as in NX2, etc.

2. That fix methods, no matter how clean looking, will not be an accurate representation of reality once the moiré has occurred there, just due to how the aliasing/moiré scramble the real visual data.

With regard to the second point, the form of moiré that occurs without the very obvious pattern (by "obvious pattern" I mean the one that looks like a topo map, as in your example) is actually more vexing, in that you might not realize you are looking at false detail. I'm really not sure what technical term correctly distinguishes the "topo map" pattern moiré from other expressions of the same problem. It's hard to find any "authority" or consistency on what that vocabulary is, as I think usage is still emerging and largely governed by non-mathematician imaging practitioners. The "correct" answer is probably out there in the writing of some digital mathematician whom I have never read.

Also with regard to the second point, I'm suspect that somewhere in America (if it has not happened already) there will be a battle between expert witnesses over an evidentiary photograph, with one side arguing that the image is invalid in the smallest of details due to false detail phenomena.

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David Hill
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stany buyle
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Re: D800E, searching for moire...
In reply to JohnWheeler, May 4, 2012

JohnWheeler wrote:

em_dee_aitch wrote:

If you do it for money then treat it as a real risk and respect it, probably by owning both versions of the camera.............

As to the software fixing it, you can fix the chroma only. The luminance is not reconstructable.

Sage advice David. I agree that getting the shots right without Moiré is the most productive and assured way to avoid the issue whether it is purchasing both cameras and using them appropriately depending on subject and in addition taking shots tethered and checking at 100%, or covering your bets with multiple shots at slightly different camera to subject distance or slightly different focal lengths.

If still needed using different Raw Converters is worth trying and that failing some of the software techniques (which have real limitations). I have found also that the Chroma component is the easiest to correct yet some Luminosity components can be corrected when associated with the Chroma striations. Here are links to example problems and technique I posted about a year ago. It will not work on just luminosity striations nor on adjacent pixel artifacts. It does a decent job on chroma or chroma combined with luminosity striations (all IMHO of course):

http://jkwphoto.blogspot.com/2011/05/new-way-to-remove-moire.html
https://vimeo.com/23508129

Thanks for the link, but I find that the application of that technique quite difficult, I'm not a PS guy...

Upto that and after 2500 images with D800e -among which approx 100 where we were really trying to create moire-, I don't expect to encounter that kind of extreme moire with D800E

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John Wheeler

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Stany Buyle
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I like better one good picture in a day than 10 bad ones in a second..

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Michael Firstlight
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Re: For David Hill //Re: D800E, searching for moire...
In reply to stany buyle, May 5, 2012

Geeze!

FUD - Fear, uncertainty, and doubt - not a term anyone calls another person, but the act of over blowing something not based on fact or based intentional misinformation or ignorance.

There has been much FUD over the SPECULATION that morie with the D800E would be extreme. Not so - only mildly greater chance of it over the D800, only in rare circumstances, under certain specific conditions, with certain subjects, and manageable both in camera and in post processing when it does occur.

Mike

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