D800E, searching for moire...

Started May 3, 2012 | Discussions
stany buyle
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D800E, searching for moire...
May 3, 2012

Good morning everybody,

Yesterday we were doing some further testing for D800 vs D800e for sharpness and moire in the studio of a friend of mine.

We dressed up my daugther specially for what we thought could/would bring moire while using the D800E and taking over 100 shots alltogether....

... samples and more on my website:

http://www.nikonuser.info/fotoforum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1632&sid=e6d7bdf711452219ecb520aa5e590b2b

Thanks for your attention and kindest regards,
Stany
http://www.nikonuser.info

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Fastmikefree
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Re: D800E, searching for moire...
In reply to stany buyle, May 3, 2012

Exactly the kind of valuable information that I was looking for coming from someone who has the camera in hand! Thanks for sharing!

I do have 2 questions for you:

1. since you are suspecting the NX2 may automatically correct some artefacts (moire and other), did you get a chance to try reading the pics in another software? (even freeware...) just to confirm your assumption?

2. on the last picture on the link that you sent, I can see trace of yellow/green in the bottom right of the picture. Is that not moire? Might be the true color of the clothes that I am not sure. Can we get access to the nef files?

Many many thanks

Phil

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Bill Hollinger
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Re: D800E, searching for moire...
In reply to stany buyle, May 3, 2012

I’ve taken about 3000 images with the D800E, a good many of which were birds with a 600mm f4.0 lens, and so far I have only found a tiny area of moire in one bird image, and it was visible only by looking carefully at 100 percent. What I do see in my D800/800E comparisons is, for want of a better description, a brighter, “snappier”, more saturated look than I see in my D800 images. That said, both cameras produce incredible images, and you can’t go wrong with either one.

Interesting about the Capture NX2. Have you compared it to LR4, and if so, what makes you prefer the Nikon software?

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Bill Hollinger
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Re: D800E, searching for moire...
In reply to Fastmikefree, May 3, 2012

Fastmikefree wrote:

2. on the last picture on the link that you sent, I can see trace of yellow/green in the bottom right of the picture. Is that not moire? Might be the true color of the clothes that I am not sure. Can we get access to the nef files?

Many many thanks

Phil

Hi Phil,

Michael Reichmann wrote about the D800E and addressed the moire issue. He posts and example without moire, but says various monitors will show moire in one or both images. http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/nikon_d800__e_initial_impressions.shtml

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stany buyle
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Re: D800E, searching for moire...
In reply to Bill Hollinger, May 3, 2012

Bill Hollinger wrote:

What I do see in my D800/800E comparisons is, for want of a better description, a brighter, “snappier”, more saturated look than I see in my D800 images. That said, both cameras produce incredible images, and you can’t go wrong with either one.

Completely agree.

Interesting about the Capture NX2. Have you compared it to LR4

I compared to Adobe ACR, never use lightroom even though I have it. Prefer View NX2 for sorting and more.

, and if so, what makes you prefer the Nikon software?

That Capture NX2 keeps the in-camera settings while opening the NEF files, and that's a huge time saver for me.

http://www.nikonuser.info/fotoforum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=566&sid=80f29fe3cee92fa2e10de4aec34d0ecb

Upto that-as i wrote on the related topic on my website-...

http://www.nikonuser.info/fotoforum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1632&sid=80f29fe3cee92fa2e10de4aec34d0ecb

..., now with D800E, Capture NX2 seems to get rid of the AA-less camera moire issue...

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Kindest regards.
Stany Buyle
http://www.nikonuser.info

I like better one good picture in a day than 10 bad ones in a second..

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Fastmikefree
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Re: D800E, searching for moire...
In reply to Bill Hollinger, May 3, 2012

Bill

Thanks for the link. I have 2 different monitors connected to my PC and I see the same 'artefacts' (?) when printing the image but without the original picture, might be not relevant...

Cheers

Phil

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Michael Firstlight
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FUD Busted!
In reply to stany buyle, May 3, 2012

Thank you!

A mounting number of D800E owners are reporting the same; the fear of morie was vastly overblown. It appears now that the D800 AA filter is very week and whatever Nikon engineered in the D800E makes the two extremely close when it comes to the risk of morie - rendering it a virtually moot point. Also, multiple posts by D800E owners have all said that NX2 appears to able to clean up the very rare instances of morie. Verdict? D800E morie FUD busted.

The detail of the D800E is clearly superior - especially for those of us that frequently make large prints (my minimum print size is 16x24 for example). Some say the difference between the D800 and D800E in terms of detail and microcontrast isn't vast either - and that seems also true.

So all other things equal, it seems that we can't go wrong with either the D800 or D800E. For me personally, making large prints always and spending that extra on top glass and other elements to eek out the very sharpest images I can get using a DSLR, the D800E is for me.

I thought about playing it safe and going for the D800 initially decided to pull the trigger on a D800E pre-order a few hours after they went up for ordering betting the early reports from initial enthusiasts and pro recipients would bear out the facts; a bet well worth taken.

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stany buyle
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Re: FUD Busted!
In reply to Michael Firstlight, May 3, 2012

Michael Firstlight wrote:

Thank you!

It was a pleasure.

A mounting number of D800E owners are reporting the same; the fear of morie was vastly overblown.

Agree 100% if you use Capture NX2 and nikon software

It appears now that the D800 AA filter is very week and whatever Nikon engineered in the D800E makes the two extremely close when it comes to the risk of morie - rendering it a virtually moot point. Also, multiple posts by D800E owners have all said that NX2 appears to able to clean up the very rare instances of morie. Verdict? D800E morie FUD busted.

The detail of the D800E is clearly superior - especially for those of us that frequently make large prints (my minimum print size is 16x24 for example). Some say the difference between the D800 and D800E in terms of detail and microcontrast isn't vast either - and that seems also true.

We were doing more comparison shots in studio with both cams and even though the difference is there, it stays quite subtle...
Best lenses and F4 were showing a bit more the difference

So all other things equal, it seems that we can't go wrong with either the D800 or D800E.

Agree

For me personally, making large prints always and spending that extra on top glass and other elements to eek out the very sharpest images I can get using a DSLR, the D800E is for me.

I thought about playing it safe and going for the D800 initially decided to pull the trigger on a D800E pre-order a few hours after they went up for ordering betting the early reports from initial enthusiasts and pro recipients would bear out the facts; a bet well worth taken.

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Kindest regards.
Stany Buyle
http://www.nikonuser.info

I like better one good picture in a day than 10 bad ones in a second..

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Many Feathers
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Here's moire on a bird with a d800
In reply to stany buyle, May 3, 2012

I frequently get this and have gotten it in the past with the D700, d2x, even some point and shoots. Guess when I'm taking photos of my parrots, the situation is just right for moire....

Certainly, the size I view it at changes how much it shows...

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jlw82
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Re: Here's moire on a bird with a d800
In reply to Many Feathers, May 3, 2012

I would love to see more samples, with different light settings.

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luchs
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Re: FUD Busted!
In reply to stany buyle, May 3, 2012

stany buyle wrote:

Agree 100% if you use Capture NX2 and nikon software

LR4 also has a brush to remove Moire and if you don't have either use something like photoline or gimp or PS to slightly blur the color channel. You do not need Capture NX to remove moire, there are better ways.

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stany buyle
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Re: FUD Busted!
In reply to luchs, May 3, 2012

luchs wrote:

stany buyle wrote:

Agree 100% if you use Capture NX2 and nikon software

LR4 also has a brush to remove Moire and if you don't have either use something like photoline or gimp or PS to slightly blur the color channel. You do not need Capture NX to remove moire, there are better ways.

Remove moire can be done otherwise as well, I agree, but moire simply not to show up after conversion is another thing.

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Stany Buyle
http://www.nikonuser.info

I like better one good picture in a day than 10 bad ones in a second..

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JohnWheeler
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Re: D800E, searching for moire...
In reply to stany buyle, May 3, 2012

Hi Staney

Thanks for the information and link to you other post about the d800E and searching for Moiré. Hard to make an A vs B comparison without a d800 with the same shots. I hope you don't mind that I borrowed one of your images to post here to point out where there is some subtle Moiré. In the linked thread there already was a comment about some yellow mottling. That is actually sensor based Moiré artifacting. The same techniques used to minimize Moiré can also be used to show where it is hiding. Unfortunately there is not comparison with the d800 to see if it would have done any better. The following image is a GIF time lapse where the Moiré area was enhanced. You can see in the lower right corner a pattern emerges that matches the yellow mottling. Classic case of Moiré artifacting. Not many would notice it yet at least one observer form the linked thread did. I thought the enhancement below would be useful to share:

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John Wheeler

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stany buyle
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Re: D800E, searching for moire...
In reply to JohnWheeler, May 3, 2012

Interesting, I just posted a similar image taken with D800 as an update in the same topic, so you can compare.

http://www.nikonuser.info/fotoforum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1632&p=4538&sid=7b8db50f96294c9b03b12a2e3edc46a4#p4538

JohnWheeler wrote:

Hi Staney

Thanks for the information and link to you other post about the d800E and searching for Moiré. Hard to make an A vs B comparison without a d800 with the same shots. I hope you don't mind that I borrowed one of your images to post here to point out where there is some subtle Moiré. In the linked thread there already was a comment about some yellow mottling. That is actually sensor based Moiré artifacting. The same techniques used to minimize Moiré can also be used to show where it is hiding. Unfortunately there is not comparison with the d800 to see if it would have done any better. The following image is a GIF time lapse where the Moiré area was enhanced. You can see in the lower right corner a pattern emerges that matches the yellow mottling. Classic case of Moiré artifacting. Not many would notice it yet at least one observer form the linked thread did. I thought the enhancement below would be useful to share:

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John Wheeler

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Kindest regards.
Stany Buyle
http://www.nikonuser.info

I like better one good picture in a day than 10 bad ones in a second..

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NektonFi
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Moire is there and is easily removable with LR4 too
In reply to stany buyle, May 3, 2012

I have posted this before but here are the shots again (and I did these shots just to get moire, not because I find shots of my laundry interesting)

I've got the Capture NX2 serial too, but I haven't installed it yet because I am very satisfied with Adobe's Lightroom 4.

Look at the originals to properly see the moire.

And then quickly moire brushed in Lightroom 4's moire tool:

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Bill Hollinger
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Re: Moire is there and is easily removable with LR4 too
In reply to NektonFi, May 3, 2012

You guys, I can’t see moire in either the parrot (neat bird!) or the shirts. Where is it in the images?

Can you tell us about the personality of the parrot? He really looks like an interesting character!

Thanks!

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JohnWheeler
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Re: D800E, searching for moire...
In reply to stany buyle, May 3, 2012

stany buyle wrote:

Interesting, I just posted a similar image taken with D800 as an update in the same topic, so you can compare.

http://www.nikonuser.info/fotoforum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1632&p=4538&sid=7b8db50f96294c9b03b12a2e3edc46a4#p4538

Hi stany

Moiré is very sensitive to distance to subject so with the distance to subject no exactly the same it would still be hard to do an A vs B comparison other than visual inspection indicates that it is much less for the d800. The d800 image still has some Moiré yet it is IMHO inconsequential for your d800 image because it is at the bare level of perceptibility if you really look for it. The tools I use help tell where to look for it. Yet without those tools, it would go unnoticed which is all one cares about. Here is the equivalent GIF image which identifies the subtle Moire pattern is located but it does not pass the "who cares" test. I would interpret the results as the AA filter is set just about right. The Moiré is just at the threshold of visibility as a balance of minimizing PP with best sharpness for those conditions. Thanks for sharing your images. Very revealing:

I further examined specific Hue and Sat channels to see what was variying (turns out it was both). Here is the Saturation channel variation Map:

And here is the Hue Channel Variation Map:

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JohnWheeler
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Re: Here's moire on a bird with a d800
In reply to Many Feathers, May 3, 2012

Many Feathers wrote:

Certainly, the size I view it at changes how much it shows...

Can you share a 100% crop? Viewing at less that 100% can introduce downsampling Moiré which is real yet unrelated to the camera sensor.
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John Wheeler

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NektonFi
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Re: Moire is there and is easily removable with LR4 too
In reply to Bill Hollinger, May 3, 2012

You need to view the originals to see the moire in the shirts. It is very visible color moire if you have a decent monitor.

Bill Hollinger wrote:

You guys, I can’t see moire in either the parrot (neat bird!) or the shirts. Where is it in the images?

Can you tell us about the personality of the parrot? He really looks like an interesting character!

Thanks!

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Flashlight
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Re: Moire is there and is easily removable with LR4 too
In reply to NektonFi, May 3, 2012

If you want people to look at the originals you have to allow for it in your dpreview profile. At this point we can't and just see downsized laundry photos. Quite interesting BTW

NektonFi wrote:

You need to view the originals to see the moire in the shirts. It is very visible color moire if you have a decent monitor.

Bill Hollinger wrote:

You guys, I can’t see moire in either the parrot (neat bird!) or the shirts. Where is it in the images?

Can you tell us about the personality of the parrot? He really looks like an interesting character!

Thanks!

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Philip

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