E-M5 --------- Another Review, another DR rating!

Started May 3, 2012 | Discussions
Sergey Borachev
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E-M5 --------- Another Review, another DR rating!
May 3, 2012

I know this is not the most reliable review site in the universe, but it still seems odd that DR test results can vary so much from review to review to review. Why?

http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Olympus-OM-D-E-M5-Digital-Camera-Review.htm

Louis_Dobson
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Re: E-M5 --------- Another Review, another DR rating!
In reply to Sergey Borachev, May 3, 2012

Because they are testing JPGs, which is a completely pointless.

There are two valid tests: the DxO one on RAW, and looking yourself at shadow pulls.

We've done the latter, it's OK, GH2 or better.

Sergey Borachev wrote:

I know this is not the most reliable review site in the universe, but it still seems odd that DR test results can vary so much from review to review to review. Why?

http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Olympus-OM-D-E-M5-Digital-Camera-Review.htm

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Sergey Borachev
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Re: E-M5 --------- Another Review, another DR rating!
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 3, 2012

JPEG DR testing completely pointless?!

Even the great DPReview spends time to get useless figures?

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Macx
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Re: E-M5 --------- Another Review, another DR rating!
In reply to Sergey Borachev, May 3, 2012

The reason is that they use different thresholds for what acceptable noise is. What DxOMark and many others are reporting is the dynamic range for a signal to noise ratio just 1. The linked site, Digital Camera Info, uses a much more conservative and demanding signal to noise ratio of 10. Their report that the E-M5 has a dynamic range of just over 6 EV at this signal to noise ratio is very similar to what the Polish version of Lenstip reported in their review. Polish Lenstip also claimed that this was 1 EV improvement on the E-P3, as well as a 1 EV improvement on the G3, but slightly below the NEX-5N's base ISO.

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Louis_Dobson
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Re: E-M5 --------- Another Review, another DR rating!
In reply to Sergey Borachev, May 3, 2012

Well, they are testing the JPG engine, so it has some relevance to some users.

Sergey Borachev wrote:

JPEG DR testing completely pointless?!

Even the great DPReview spends time to get useless figures?

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Fiatopichan
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Image Stabilization Issue
In reply to Sergey Borachev, May 3, 2012

They gave much lower rate of new IS system of E-M5. I highly doubt that test because in my own experiences, it works much better than E-PL1 which they gave 6.3 points to, comparing to 0.37 point to E-M5.

http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Olympus-OM-D-E-M5-Digital-Camera-Review/Sharpness.htm
E-PL1

http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Olympus-E-PL1-Digital-Camera-Review-21697/Sharpness.htm

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perry rhodan
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is off really off, or is it on?
In reply to Fiatopichan, May 3, 2012

But for sure they have guts. Not doing any reading up on the miriad of very positive reviews on the IS allready available.

Having tried out a kitlens (12-50) set this week the IS looked amazing. Even doing the macro justice!

Must be they bogged up on settings (off or off off, hehe). BTW the pictures to substantiate their lacking IS conclusion do not subtantiate this .

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rrr_hhh
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Re: Image Stabilization Issue
In reply to Fiatopichan, May 3, 2012

Fiatopichan wrote:

They gave much lower rate of new IS system of E-M5. I highly doubt that test because in my own experiences, it works much better than E-PL1 which they gave 6.3 points to, comparing to 0.37 point to E-M5.

http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Olympus-OM-D-E-M5-Digital-Camera-Review/Sharpness.htm
E-PL1

http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Olympus-E-PL1-Digital-Camera-Review-21697/Sharpness.htm

Here is how they test :

We test this feature by shaking the camera in a precise, controlled way using our Zaber linear slide and rotary stand and shooting a large number of images at a number of different shutter speeds, ranging from 1/500 of a second down to 1/8 of a second. We shoot with the Image Stabilization off, with it on and with any different modes that the camera offers. We then run all of the images through Imatest, analyzing the sharpness of the image, and do a complex statistical analysis of the results that tells us what the difference between stabilization being on and off is. From this, we can determine how well the image stabilization works, and how much improvement you are likely to see in photos.

They are not making true human tests, but use a machine to shake the camera in a linear and rotational way. May be the type of artificial movements they are inflicting to the camera is not adapted to the new 5axes IBIS ?

Their results are rather curious. But they may be conscious that something was may be not right, because they repeated twice things like "under our test conditions" which implies some doubts. most probable problem they made the same error as Gakuranman.

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acahaya
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Re: Image Stabilization Issue
In reply to rrr_hhh, May 3, 2012

You mean shooting in burst mode and forgot to switch IS on for burst mode ?

LOL
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nxp3
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Re: Image Stabilization Issue
In reply to Fiatopichan, May 3, 2012

They say they hook it to a machine that makes predictable motion and see how the IS works. That's the problem right there. They need to hook it up to a human and see how the IS works. A machine doesn't move the same way as humans do.
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CrashE3
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A different thought..
In reply to Louis_Dobson, May 3, 2012

Back in the day, the wizards of smart that ruin ( ooops) rule this place told us we MUST shoot in raw because that was the only way to get the best possible dynamic range. That there is always more "headroom" in a raw file.. so much more data than could ever make it into a jpg.

NOW, since the advent of the E-M5, are we expected to believe that the dynamic range that is being measured is going to somehow be LESS on a raw file? Where is the jpg getting all of this data that is apparently not available in raw? Would not the logic tell you if you can pull 9 stops of DR from a jpg that you should get even more out of a raw file? So why are we expecting a huge drop of measurable DR in the raw files?

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Detail Man
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Re: A different thought..
In reply to CrashE3, May 3, 2012

CrashE3 wrote:

Back in the day, the wizards of smart that ruin ( ooops) rule this place told us we MUST shoot in raw because that was the only way to get the best possible dynamic range. That there is always more "headroom" in a raw file.. so much more data than could ever make it into a jpg.

Some light reading for you. Chocked full of widespread confusion and misinformation. Standard:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&message=40429519

NOW, since the advent of the E-M5, are we expected to believe that the dynamic range that is being measured is going to somehow be LESS on a raw file?

We should mention that we test each cameras’ JPEG engines ...

http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Olympus-OM-D-E-M5-Digital-Camera-Review/Dynamic-Range.htm

Where is the jpg getting all of this data that is apparently not available in raw?

Not clear how you come to that conclusion. In-camera JPG "engine" Noise Reduction would do it nicely. Especially, heavy egredious detail-smearing NR (this means less image-data, not more).

Would not the logic tell you if you can pull 9 stops of DR from a jpg that you should get even more out of a raw file?

Yes. When do you get 9 EV from ? They are reporting 6.69 EV from a JPG test.

So why are we expecting a huge drop of measurable DR in the raw files?

Are you ? I am confused as to why ?

Visualize Whirled Peas.

Maybe that will help ...

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rrr_hhh
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Re: Image Stabilization Issue
In reply to acahaya, May 3, 2012

acahaya wrote:

You mean shooting in burst mode and forgot to switch IS on for burst mode ?

Yes, that is what I mean they made like Gakuraman and let the default option, which prevent the IS to work in any burst mode.

BTW, I think that this German guy (Malamut ?) has it the their way around too : he set the option to off because he doesn't want it to fire in burst mode, but second DPreview when you have it to off, it will kick in and prevent you to reach 10fps (burst mode is limited to 4fps when IS is on).

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Anders W
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Re: Image Stabilization Issue
In reply to nxp3, May 3, 2012

nxp3 wrote:

They say they hook it to a machine that makes predictable motion and see how the IS works. That's the problem right there. They need to hook it up to a human and see how the IS works. A machine doesn't move the same way as humans do.

Unless the machine is constructed to move the way humans do, as for example the one used by the French Fnac labs. That said, I doubt that they tested the IS system correctly on the E-M5, although I don't know exactly what the culprit was.

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Jorginho
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Don't trust it at all based on GX1 G3 comparison
In reply to Sergey Borachev, May 3, 2012

In which they rate the GX1 DR significantly lower than the G3 sensor. which is the same sensor.

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Amin Sabet
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DR testing is difficult - JPEGs and isolated shadow pulls are unreliable
In reply to Sergey Borachev, May 3, 2012

Most sites test JPEGs, and some people show shadow pulls. Both of those are dependent on the in-camera JPEG engine. For example, if you test an E-P1 and a GF1 using autoexposure and look at shadow pulls, the GF1 will do much better despite having the same sensor as the E-P1. This becomes apparent when you do highlight pulls on the same files and see that the e-P1 does much better.

DxOmark should be along any day now to tell us the DR of this sensor. In the meanwhile, it seems to have enough DR to make a positive impression on most users.

Sergey Borachev wrote:

I know this is not the most reliable review site in the universe, but it still seems odd that DR test results can vary so much from review to review to review. Why?

http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Olympus-OM-D-E-M5-Digital-Camera-Review.htm

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texinwien
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Re: Image Stabilization Issue
In reply to rrr_hhh, May 3, 2012

rrr_hhh wrote:

BTW, I think that this German guy (Malamut ?) has it the their way around too : he set the option to off because he doesn't want it to fire in burst mode, but second DPreview when you have it to off, it will kick in and prevent you to reach 10fps (burst mode is limited to 4fps when IS is on).

Hm, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but that's not how I interpreted Malamut's explanation:

"Serie IS Off: Aus. Warum sollte man dem Stabi die Arbeit generell bei Serienaufnahmen verbieten? Da stelle ich doch lieber vor der Serienaufnahme im SCP auf den jeweils passenden IS-Modus."

Series IS Off: Off. Why would you want to keep IS from working per default in burst mode? I'd prefer to set the correct IS-mode via the SCP before shooting a series.

I read that he wants IS to be on, per default, in burst mode, and he plans to adjust the IS settings on an as-needed basis before he uses burst mode.

http://www.systemkamera-forum.de/micro-four-thirds-fourthirds-kamera-technik/33593-einstellungsthread-olympus-om-d-e-m5-5.html#post285965

That's an excellent resource, btw, for those of you who understand German.

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rrr_hhh
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Re: Image Stabilization Issue
In reply to texinwien, May 3, 2012

texinwien wrote:

rrr_hhh wrote:

BTW, I think that this German guy (Malamut ?) has it the their way around too : he set the option to off because he doesn't want it to fire in burst mode, but second DPreview when you have it to off, it will kick in and prevent you to reach 10fps (burst mode is limited to 4fps when IS is on).

Hm, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but that's not how I interpreted Malamut's explanation:

"Serie IS Off: Aus. Warum sollte man dem Stabi die Arbeit generell bei Serienaufnahmen verbieten? Da stelle ich doch lieber vor der Serienaufnahme im SCP auf den jeweils passenden IS-Modus."

You are right now that I read it again.. I went through it too fast and skipped the word verbieten at the end.

Series IS Off: Off. Why would you want to keep IS from working per default in burst mode? I'd prefer to set the correct IS-mode via the SCP before shooting a series.

http://www.systemkamera-forum.de/micro-four-thirds-fourthirds-kamera-technik/33593-einstellungsthread-olympus-om-d-e-m5-5.html#post285965

That's an excellent resource, btw, for those of you who understand German.

I only read part of the comments following his post (up to page 11), so I don't know whether this has been brought up later, but his advice concerning the AEL/AF options is not that good : he advises people to keep mode 1. But in this mode a halfpress of the shutter would adjust both AF and AEL, however it is always better to separate focus from exposure metering, so it should be either 2 or 3. Similar remark for CAF. I prefer mode 3, because I do focus and recompose first and meter when the frame is ready.

Also he advise people to use 2fps for burst. It is not enough for shooting children for instance. IMO it is more usefull to keep 3.5 the default to 4fps : why get a super fast camera if you limit its possibilities. Just lower the burst speed it in case you want to track something specially slow.

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texinwien
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Re: Image Stabilization Issue
In reply to rrr_hhh, May 3, 2012

rrr_hhh wrote:

You are right now that I read it again.. I went through it too fast and skipped the word verbieten at the end.

Those trailing verbs in German trip me up from time-to-time, as well. Not to mention that the option, itself, is somewhat confusingly named.

I only read part of the comments following his post (up to page 11), so I don't know whether this has been brought up later, but his advice concerning the AEL/AF options is not that good : he advises people to keep mode 1. But in this mode a halfpress of the shutter would adjust both AF and AEL, however it is always better to separate focus from exposure metering, so it should be either 2 or 3. Similar remark for CAF. I prefer mode 3, because I do focus and recompose first and meter when the frame is ready.

Also he advise people to use 2fps for burst. It is not enough for shooting children for instance. IMO it is more usefull to keep 3.5 the default to 4fps : why get a super fast camera if you limit its possibilities. Just lower the burst speed it in case you want to track something specially slow.

Thanks for these notes - the level of customizatoin on this camera is far above anything I've worked with in the past, so there's a lot for me to get my head wrapped around.

Is it safe to say you prefer A2/C3/M3 for AF/AEL? I'm going to have to pay particularly close attention to how these work, since I'm used to shooting with cameras that have generally have AFL and AEL set on half-pressing the shutter.

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TrapperJohn
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DR ratings are like posteriors
In reply to Sergey Borachev, May 3, 2012

Everyone has one, and most of them stink.

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