How Canon's competition missed the mark, can we discuss this?

Started May 2, 2012 | Discussions
Stone13
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How Canon's competition missed the mark, can we discuss this?
May 2, 2012

Everyone knows, I'm a defender of Canons most recent update to the 5DIII. I think Canon actually listened to it's userbase, i.e. people ACTUALLY shooting with their existing product and gave them what they asked for. No one was screaming for a high MP monster until the specs on the D800 were made public.

Now, the D800 is a fantastic camera for certain scenarios (there I said it), in others, it's no better and in some cases worse than the competition.

However, I purport that Nikon missed the mark with this body, for 3K, they could have gotten Sony to build them a roughly 24MP exmor sensor, and built a body that still shoots 8-9fps, with the D4 AF system, "D3X 2nd coming" high ISO performance and their new video implementation. This is a camera that would have surely made Canon a bit nervous, and had many, many more shooters contemplating a switch. It would have been a REAL choice between two stellar performing bodies that would compete directly, with the Nikon offering greater performance at a much cheaper price. Instead, they went for the slow, ultra high MP crown which will only be temporary and really doesn't benefit a great many shooters. The high DR is a strong selling point, but I don't see any Nikon landscapers dumping their filters due the great DR, they needed them pre-D800 and they still need them. I've also yet to see anything worthy of selling to a customer with 5+ stops of shadows being pushed, those shots while possible are still more than likely headed to the recycle bin.

So honestly, did the competition miss the mark? If the latest Nikon offered the specs I mentioned above at $500 cheaper, it might have just been enough to get me on the bandwagon, instead, I'm a bit underwhelmed. Yes I know this post references Nikon, but anyone who's read anything I've posted in this regard knows this is legit......

So what do you think?

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tony field
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Re: How Canon's competition missed the mark, can we discuss this?
In reply to Stone13, May 2, 2012

Stone13 wrote:

Everyone knows, I'm a defender of Canons most recent update to the 5DIII. I think Canon actually listened to it's userbase, i.e. people ACTUALLY shooting with their existing product and gave them what they asked for. No one was screaming for a high MP monster until the specs on the D800 were made public.

If Canon listened to the user base for their 5D-III offering, that just shows you how stuck-in-the-box the Canon users are. Nikon had the marketing sense to deliver a quality of product that was based upon the current availability of technology.

Now, the D800 is a fantastic camera for certain scenarios (there I said it), in others, it's no better and in some cases worse than the competition.

Yup! Both cameras are excellent.

However, I purport that Nikon missed the mark with this body, for 3K, they could have gotten Sony to build them a roughly 24MP exmor sensor, and built a body that still shoots 8-9fps, with the D4 AF system, "D3X 2nd coming" high ISO performance and their new video implementation.

Imagine what that would do to the D4 / 1DX market

... Instead, they went for the slow, ultra high MP crown which will only be temporary and really doesn't benefit a great many shooters.

You could say that, for "a great many shooters", 12mpix is more than enough and things like the 5D-II are only "temporary" since it does not benefit the hoards.

The high DR is a strong selling point, but I don't see any Nikon landscapers dumping their filters due the great DR, they needed them pre-D800 and they still need them. I've also yet to see anything worthy of selling to a customer with 5+ stops of shadows being pushed, those shots while possible are still more than likely headed to the recycle bin.

Good gosh!! IMHO, DR is the only thing missing from the Canon line. I am surprised that you cannot see that even for "conventional" shooting. Difficult lighting conditions with a high dynamic range camera can now be exposed properly.

So honestly, did the competition miss the mark? If the latest Nikon offered the specs I mentioned above at $500 cheaper, it might have just been enough to get me on the bandwagon, instead, I'm a bit underwhelmed. Yes I know this post references Nikon, but anyone who's read anything I've posted in this regard knows this is legit......

Well of course everyone would love to get a 9fps camera, 20-40mpx sensor, high dynamic range, great colour fidelity, fine body at the $3000 mark.

IMHO, Nikon delivered on all counts, and with a fair bit more flexibility than offered on the 5D-III.
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commiebiker
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Re: How Canon's competition missed the mark, can we discuss this?
In reply to tony field, May 2, 2012

"If I asked customers what they wanted, I would have built a faster horse" Henry Ford (maybe...somewhat disputed)

Nikon pushed the ISO envelope last generation, now it has become an expectation in just about every camera

They are doing the same thing now with resolution. We'll see where it goes, but the D800 is selling like hotcakes

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Stone13
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Re: How Canon's competition missed the mark, can we discuss this?
In reply to tony field, May 2, 2012

All very good points, however Nikon has traditionally seen no negative impact by offering a feature set very closely related to it's flagship bodies in the Dxxx series. I've considered it one of their stronger points and something I admired about them as a brand. Having said that, people looking for 1DX/D4 bodies generally aren't going to settle for less so I've never really subscribed to the cannibalizing of sales theory.

As to the DR advantage, I just haven't seen any real world evidence where it's made or broken a shot. As people get more experience I'm expecting to see some of these real world scenarios and I'm ready to stand corrected.

The point of my post is I think there was a great opportunity to steal a significant piece of market share if they went head-to-head in specs with the 5DIII, like they did with the D700, a camera I did spend time with and though of as a great alternative to Canon.

As I see it now, these 2 popular cameras don't directly compete and are far more different than they are similar, but on paper, the 5DIII appears to be the more versatile offering, the very thing we Canon users used to say about it's Nikon cameras. At the end of the day, I think Nikon would have been better off being thought of as more versatile. Your average buyer just isn't going to educate themselves on DR or photon shot noise.

But then again, I could be and just might be completely wrong

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Osiris30
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Re: How Canon's competition missed the mark, can we discuss this?
In reply to commiebiker, May 2, 2012

commiebiker wrote:

"If I asked customers what they wanted, I would have built a faster horse" Henry Ford (maybe...somewhat disputed)

Nikon pushed the ISO envelope last generation, now it has become an expectation in just about every camera

That was Sony (it is a Sony sensor and has been for a while). Nikon just packages them really nicely (a lot more nicely than Sony, who crippled their sensors with nearly a stop of light loss thanks to the fixed mirror).

They are doing the same thing now with resolution. We'll see where it goes, but the D800 is selling like hotcakes

See above.

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String
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Re: How Canon's competition missed the mark, can we discuss this?
In reply to Osiris30, May 2, 2012

Osiris30 wrote:

commiebiker wrote:

"If I asked customers what they wanted, I would have built a faster horse" Henry Ford (maybe...somewhat disputed)

Nikon pushed the ISO envelope last generation, now it has become an expectation in just about every camera

That was Sony (it is a Sony sensor and has been for a while). Nikon just packages them really nicely (a lot more nicely than Sony, who crippled their sensors with nearly a stop of light loss thanks to the fixed mirror).

Nikon designed, Sony built. Not like they are buying a stock Sony sensor.

They are doing the same thing now with resolution. We'll see where it goes, but the D800 is selling like hotcakes

See above.

They are being ordered like hot cakes, delivered is another thing entirely

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Osiris30
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Re: How Canon's competition missed the mark, can we discuss this?
In reply to String, May 2, 2012

String wrote:

Osiris30 wrote:

commiebiker wrote:

"If I asked customers what they wanted, I would have built a faster horse" Henry Ford (maybe...somewhat disputed)

Nikon pushed the ISO envelope last generation, now it has become an expectation in just about every camera

That was Sony (it is a Sony sensor and has been for a while). Nikon just packages them really nicely (a lot more nicely than Sony, who crippled their sensors with nearly a stop of light loss thanks to the fixed mirror).

Nikon designed, Sony built. Not like they are buying a stock Sony sensor.

Very much open for debate. Accepted consensus (even among guys like Thom) is Sony designed, Nikon tweaked, Nikon CFA specification, claimed as 'Nikon designed'. No one with any inside knowledge has said anything to me that makes me believe Nikon has released a self designed photo-site or amplifier circuit in a LONG time.

They are doing the same thing now with resolution. We'll see where it goes, but the D800 is selling like hotcakes

See above.

They are being ordered like hot cakes, delivered is another thing entirely

Same with lenses.

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bgbs
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the other way around
In reply to Stone13, May 2, 2012

the 36mp was a slap in the Canon's face. If D800 was 24mp, people would conclude that there is no reason for jumping ship. Both cameras would be too similar in too many categories. It would come down to lens choice and brand investment. But because D800 is 36mp, and its competitor still happens to be 5DIII, the brand loyalty and investment has shaken. Many brand loyalists feel this that D800 is their chance to try a different brand.

Also note that it is Canon users who are more attracted to high MP. When Canon did not deliver a high MP 5DIII the reaction was primarily negative.

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Horshack
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Re: How Canon's competition missed the mark, can we discuss this?
In reply to Stone13, May 2, 2012

Stone13 wrote:

However, I purport that Nikon missed the mark with this body, for 3K, they could have gotten Sony to build them a roughly 24MP exmor sensor, and built a body that still shoots 8-9fps, with the D4 AF system, "D3X 2nd coming" high ISO performance and their new video implementation.

The technology exists for the D800 to shoot at 8-9fps. The 4fps limit is a marketing decision, not a technical one. High ISO performance of all the newly introduced FF bodies are so close that the differences aren't material anymore (this includes the D4/D800/5DM3).

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carlk
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Re: How Canon's competition missed the mark, can we discuss this?
In reply to Stone13, May 2, 2012

Stone13 wrote:

So honestly, did the competition miss the mark? If the latest Nikon offered the specs I mentioned above at $500 cheaper, it might have just been enough to get me on the bandwagon, instead, I'm a bit underwhelmed. Yes I know this post references Nikon, but anyone who's read anything I've posted in this regard knows this is legit......

So what do you think?

I think it's just fine. The D800 waiting list is already too long without you.

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tony field
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Re: How Canon's competition missed the mark, can we discuss this?
In reply to Stone13, May 2, 2012

Stone13 wrote:

As to the DR advantage, I just haven't seen any real world evidence where it's made or broken a shot. As people get more experience I'm expecting to see some of these real world scenarios and I'm ready to stand corrected.

DR is something you have to "understand" and is based upon experience. I used to shoot with Nikon D1x, D2x, etc. When I switched to Canon 5D, 5DII, 1D-III, 1D-IV, the DR gain was very much noticed - I could now handle subject lighting in a dramatically different way. This is for sports, theatre, dance, scenic, etc work.

With the low ISO dr of the D800, I can think of a number of shots I would immediately redo to gain the advantages - this is for scenic, environmental portraits, and for a couple of studio shots. On occasion, for sports such as show jumping, shot in brilliant outdoor sun, the added DR would be useful for quite a few shots.

It is a matter of learning how to use the capabilities.

The point of my post is I think there was a great opportunity to steal a significant piece of market share if they went head-to-head in specs with the 5DIII, like they did with the D700, a camera I did spend time with and though of as a great alternative to Canon.

Head-to-head is not the way the world works - nor do the users want. Canon did not go head-to-head with the introduction of the 5D-II. The gave the market a tool that was significantly different and better than they or anyone else at a certain price/feature point - with "incredible" pixel count, very useful video, etc.

As I see it now, these 2 popular cameras don't directly compete and are far more different than they are similar, but on paper, the 5DIII appears to be the more versatile offering, the very thing we Canon users used to say about it's Nikon cameras. At the end of the day, I think Nikon would have been better off being thought of as more versatile. Your average buyer just isn't going to educate themselves on DR or photon shot noise.

Actually, after playing around with both cameras, they are somewhat similar at the superficial level (body, price, etc). I cannot see anything in the 5D-III that makes it more versatile - I feel the D800 is more versatile.

Aside from the obvious DR / resolution advantages, it has IMHO a more versatile set of features: on camera flash (for me, as a control system for off-camera flashes), "high" frame rate in crop mode (however, not important to me - I almost always shoot sports in single frame mode - except for figure skating where no camera is fast enough). The crop modes allow better overall image control with lenses and can maintains higher than 5D-III resolution, etc.

The Canon as a minor advantage at esoteric high ISO (which I do a lot of). The 5D-III is certainly more flexible in difficult shooting than the D800. On occasion, the sRaw feature is quite fine - I know a few wedding shooters that use this a lot.

Video: not interested - I am sure there are good arguments for both sides.

Ergonomics: essentially equivalent with only minor advantages one way or another.
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Stone13
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Re: How Canon's competition missed the mark, can we discuss this?
In reply to carlk, May 2, 2012

carlk wrote:

Stone13 wrote:

So honestly, did the competition miss the mark? If the latest Nikon offered the specs I mentioned above at $500 cheaper, it might have just been enough to get me on the bandwagon, instead, I'm a bit underwhelmed. Yes I know this post references Nikon, but anyone who's read anything I've posted in this regard knows this is legit......

So what do you think?

I think it's just fine. The D800 waiting list is already too long without you.

That really wasn't my point, my modest equipment list doesn't register a blip on either Canon or Nikon's radar. But what type of user do you think make up the majority of the D800 waiting list? More than likely it's primarily Nikon shooters ready to upgrade as opposed to Canon shooters jumping ship. I was speculating on what Nikon could have done to change that ratio.....

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Cipher
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The customers have spoken with their dollars...
In reply to Stone13, May 2, 2012

and the Nikon D800 is in unprecedented massive demand. That's hardly missing the mark. Now let's turn this around. In Canada there's no shortage of 5D3. There's hardly any mention of the 5D3 in the Nikon forums. There's a ton of complaints about the minor upgrade to the 5D3 sensor in the Canon forums and the $500 price premium over the D800 and the constant debate about whether to upgrade from the 5D2. So who has missed the mark???

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Osiris30
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Re: The customers have spoken with their dollars...
In reply to Cipher, May 2, 2012

So you're assuming the only part of the supply/demand equation is demand? Sorry I'm not saying you're incorrect in your assumption, but you've omitted a giant part of the equation.

Cipher wrote:

and the Nikon D800 is in unprecedented massive demand. That's hardly missing the mark. Now let's turn this around. In Canada there's no shortage of 5D3. There's hardly any mention of the 5D3 in the Nikon forums. There's a ton of complaints about the minor upgrade to the 5D3 sensor in the Canon forums and the $500 price premium over the D800 and the constant debate about whether to upgrade from the 5D2. So who has missed the mark???

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sjprg
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Re: How Canon's competition missed the mark, can we discuss this?
In reply to Stone13, May 2, 2012

Not true, I've jumped from a 1DSIII to the Nikon D800E which arrived two days ago, and has already had an outing to the ocean. I am very happy with the decision and will probably return to Canon when they reach 45-50MP. (someday). My Canon glass will keep on the shelf until then. The D800E with the 24mm F1.4G ED is a landscaper's dream of a digital camera. The Images were shot with a tripod, mirror lockup and a remote release. It does what MF film did without the hassle.
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sjprg
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Re: The customers have spoken with their dollars...
In reply to Osiris30, May 2, 2012

Nikon may have setup the D800 as a teaser to see how the market really responded. With it's unqualified success and demand, pehaps they will take a closer look at the demand for higher MP and respond with a 50/60MP next. ?? I will be inline to purchase it.
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carlk
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Re: How Canon's competition missed the mark, can we discuss this?
In reply to sjprg, May 2, 2012

I too am a Canon shooter but on the waiting list for a D800E. I will still keep my 7D and tele lenses for wild life though. The thing I don't understand about the op is why bother start a thread if there is nothing out there that interests you?

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SubPrime
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Re: How Canon's competition missed the mark, can we discuss this?
In reply to Horshack, May 2, 2012

Horshack wrote:

The technology exists for the D800 to shoot at 8-9fps. The 4fps limit is a marketing decision, not a technical one.

That's odd, and I suspect conterintuitive.

If the technology exists to shoot the D800 at 8-9fps, then why does the D4 only shoot at 10fps and not 12 or 14?

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Horshack
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Re: How Canon's competition missed the mark, can we discuss this?
In reply to SubPrime, May 2, 2012

SubPrime wrote:

Horshack wrote:

The technology exists for the D800 to shoot at 8-9fps. The 4fps limit is a marketing decision, not a technical one.

That's odd, and I suspect conterintuitive.

If the technology exists to shoot the D800 at 8-9fps, then why does the D4 only shoot at 10fps and not 12 or 14?

Because at around 10fps you start to run into mirror box cycling and AF limitations.

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qianp2k
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Re: How Canon's competition missed the mark, can we discuss this?
In reply to Stone13, May 2, 2012

With such 24mp and 8-9fps D700s, how many will buy 16mp D4 which is double more expensive and only 1-2 fps faster?

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