Monochrome M - Silly Idea?

Started May 1, 2012 | Discussions
Peter Sills
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Monochrome M - Silly Idea?
May 1, 2012

Isn't this a silly idea?

I mean there is already no AA filter in the M9, so there will be no increase in sharpness from a color filter being added.

The problem is that without the color channels you can really not work with the file, even if your final result is going to be B&W. Programs like Silver FX Pro need the color information in order to create the stunning B&W conversions it does.

I am unconvinced that this is a good idea.

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MrLaki
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Re: Monochrome M - Silly Idea?
In reply to Peter Sills, May 1, 2012

Peter Sills wrote:

Isn't this a silly idea?

well, for me I have to say that I didn't even know that there is a monochrome M...

I mean there is already no AA filter in the M9, so there will be no increase in sharpness from a color filter being added.

I doubt that color is produced by adding a color filter

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DRabbit
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You raise a good point... but...
In reply to Peter Sills, May 1, 2012

I hadn't thought of that before and it's a good point. However, what if the camera is actually shooting in color and then doing the conversion in the camera? Imagine something like SilverEfex Pro settings (simplified of course), but in-camera instead of on the computer.

In other words, you'd have a whole bunch of presets and customizable settings to select before you take the shot... B&W film emulations, color filters, etc.

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Peter Sills
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Re: Monochrome M - Silly Idea?
In reply to MrLaki, May 1, 2012

A little background.

All camera sensors (with the exception of Foveon) are B&W sensors with a color Bayer filter over it. This is simply a sensor without a Bayer filter.
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Peter Sills
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Re: You raise a good point... but...
In reply to DRabbit, May 1, 2012

Sure, would be great. But wouldn't I want access to the full color image as I am sure I could do much better and have many more choices if I were to work with the image on the computer?

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MrLaki
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Re: Monochrome M - Silly Idea?
In reply to Peter Sills, May 1, 2012

Peter Sills wrote:

A little background.

All camera sensors (with the exception of Foveon) are B&W sensors with a color Bayer filter over it. This is simply a sensor without a Bayer filter.

ok, maybe I should have added some smiley....

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DRabbit
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Re: You raise a good point... but...
In reply to Peter Sills, May 1, 2012

Peter Sills wrote:

Sure, would be great. But wouldn't I want access to the full color image as I am sure I could do much better and have many more choices if I were to work with the image on the computer?

Hey, I'm not making an argument FOR a monochrome-m, just trying to guess what something like that would look like.

t think the idea would be to simulate a shooting-film experience... so essentially, no, you wouldn't want the full color file. You'd pick your pre-set/settings and then shoot (no LCD on the back either), just like in the old days when you picked your film and shot. You'd still have some ability to do dodging/burning, contrast enhancement on the computer during your "developing" but you wouldn't be able to restore it to color - just as if you shot B&W film.

What would be the advantage of this? I'm not sure honestly. Maybe -- and I say this because I don't know the answer technically -- there is some way to optimize a B&W only sensor to perform in such a way that a color one cannot? Or, maybe there's a way to convert to B&W in camera that is so good... because that is where the camera's processing power is focused?

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Edward48
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Re: Monochrome M - Silly Idea?
In reply to Peter Sills, May 1, 2012

Yes, a silly idea. And a silly rumour too I suspect.

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Peter Sills
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Re: Monochrome M - Silly Idea?
In reply to Edward48, May 1, 2012

Now what I am hoping for on May 10 is an M10 with a mode "optimized" for B&W images. It could do this easily by increasing the DR and throwing out the Bayer data (storing only luminance values) and thus giving more access to the sensor direct data.

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meland
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Re: Monochrome M - Silly Idea?
In reply to Peter Sills, May 1, 2012

Peter Sills wrote:

Isn't this a silly idea?

I mean there is already no AA filter in the M9, so there will be no increase in sharpness from a color filter being added.

The problem is that without the color channels you can really not work with the file, even if your final result is going to be B&W. Programs like Silver FX Pro need the color information in order to create the stunning B&W conversions it does.

I am unconvinced that this is a good idea.

In theory a B&W version of a colour sensor with the colour filter removed could give a sharper B&W image than by taking the colour image and subsequently converting it to B&W.

Some further info on this here - http://www.maxmax.com/b&w_conversion.htm

So for those that are purely working in black and white and are happy that they will not have the option of colour, there could indeed be an advantage in a B&W M9.

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Peter Sills
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Re: Monochrome M - Silly Idea?
In reply to meland, May 1, 2012

Actually a pretty poor test as they also remove the AA filter which is really the reason for the increase in apparent resolution (not sharpness). Since the M series have no AA filter, the difference, if any, would be minimal at best. Additionally, you are losing the benefits of being able to manipulate the color channels in providing you the different B&W film looks,

Looks like a poor idea to me.

My hope is that this is nothing more than a "Red Herring" to throw off the announcement of the full M10 on the 10th.

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meland
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Re: Monochrome M - Silly Idea?
In reply to Peter Sills, May 1, 2012

Peter Sills wrote:

Actually a pretty poor test as they also remove the AA filter which is really the reason for the increase in apparent resolution (not sharpness). Since the M series have no AA filter, the difference, if any, would be minimal at best. Additionally, you are losing the benefits of being able to manipulate the color channels in providing you the different B&W film looks,

Looks like a poor idea to me.

My hope is that this is nothing more than a "Red Herring" to throw off the announcement of the full M10 on the 10th.

Yes, an M10 announcement would be very interesting. And I hope the price won't be too crazy.

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pkhsu
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Re: Monochrome M - Silly Idea?
In reply to Peter Sills, May 1, 2012

Phase One had a back with monochromatic sensor. The link is below for the discussion.

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pkhsu
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Re: Monochrome M - Silly Idea?
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Peter Sills
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Re: Monochrome M - Silly Idea?
In reply to pkhsu, May 1, 2012

Not saying that there will not be some increase in apparant resolution, it is just that it will be slight. However, you will be missing the flexibility of doing the following types of manipulations to the image...

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Peter Sills
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Re: Monochrome M - Silly Idea?
In reply to Peter Sills, May 1, 2012

Sorry, meant to say "many of these couldn't be done".
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vellocet
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Re: Monochrome M - Silly Idea?
In reply to Peter Sills, May 1, 2012

I think it's a silly idea. While a monochrome M would have the advantages of high resolution and low noise, I don't think it's worth the trade off of having the flexibility to choose what you want to do with the image in post. Not to mention the hassle of having to carry around color filters.

Sensor tech has come a long way since the M9 was released... just take a look at the D800/E. There's absolutely no need to sacrifice the ability to shoot color in order to achieve high resolution / low noise images.

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DRabbit
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Re: Monochrome M - Silly Idea?
In reply to Peter Sills, May 1, 2012

Not necessarily.

See my earlier reply.

Amy
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brudy
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Re: Monochrome M - Silly Idea?
In reply to Peter Sills, May 1, 2012

Here's a new bit of info/rumor on the b&w sensor:

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/leica-monochrome-sensro-made-by-platinum-equity-kodak-sensor/

The money quote:

"The sources didn’t tell me which one it is but they said the camera pixel per pixel sharpness is unmatched by any of the current Full Frame cameras. Not even the super new Nikon D800 (36Megapixels) can match it."

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janlu
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Re: Monochrome M - Silly Idea?
In reply to Peter Sills, May 1, 2012

I don't know if this kind of camera is true ... but i believe that when Leica makes its cameras doesn't take Silver Efex pro as an important reference ...at least i hope !!..... maybe it will be the "Nik software" to be motivated to realize a good plug-in to properly post-procees those kind of files... !!

you can't load your camera with a colors Velvia film to convert the pictures in B/W.... just use a monochrome film and work with the grays.....and the curve, or put a filter in front of your lens ( or maybe you can select it from a possible menu' setting in this unknown camera) ..... it's the essence of B/W ....if you love it... if not the M8 or M9 are always alive !!

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