Update on Challenges Development

Started May 1, 2012 | Discussions
RaptorUK
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Re: Update on Challenges Development
In reply to Slynky, May 1, 2012

Slynky wrote:

I didn't know votes could be removed.

It's in this proposal . . . isn't it ?

Scott Everett wrote:

Hey all,

A few of you noticed . . . . .

-Add the ability for a host to see a voter's vote spread (histogram), and the ability to disqualify from this interface (if there is suspicious voting).

Thanks,

Scott

Although in hindsight perhaps I have misunderstood . . . I read disqualify and thought it meant remove the voters votes . . . but I think it is more likely to mean the voters entry if he/she has one . . .

Sorry if I have misunderstood and caused any grief . . .

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jrtrent
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disqualifying voters
In reply to Scott Everett, May 2, 2012

Scott Everett wrote:

-Add the ability for a host to see a voter's vote spread (histogram), and the ability to disqualify from this interface (if there is suspicious voting). A single page would display all voters at once, displaying name, # of votes, histogram of distribution of votes.

Well, I appreciate your letting us know of this change. I'm sure many will welcome this move (otherwise it's not something you would have implemented), but to me it simply means I can never be sure that the votes I'm casting will actually count. This severely diminishes the fun of the Challenges section of your site, but I'll still enjoy the reviews and forums.

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jrtrent
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Re: Update on Challenges Development
In reply to RaptorUK, May 2, 2012

RaptorUK wrote:

Although in hindsight perhaps I have misunderstood . . . I read disqualify and thought it meant remove the voters votes . . . but I think it is more likely to mean the voters entry if he/she has one . . .

Sorry if I have misunderstood and caused any grief . . .

I don't think you've misunderstood this change at all.

-Add the ability for a host to see a voter's vote spread (histogram), and the ability to disqualify from this interface (if there is suspicious voting). A single page would display all voters at once, displaying name, # of votes, histogram of distribution of votes.

There is no mention here of entrants, only voters. The language is the same as in the original list of contemplated changes posted in March; negative comment was made on this proposal then, and there was no correction offered by DPReview that those of us who didn't like this proposal were misinterpreting its intent.

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bikinchris
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Or a judge panel
In reply to onlooker, May 7, 2012

I also think it would be great to be able to appoint judges who are interested in voting to judge images.

onlooker wrote:

Hi Scott, thanks for the update. What about host-judged (closed to voting) challenges that you mentioned in the past would be coming? Any chance they will?

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Re: Or a judge panel
In reply to bikinchris, May 15, 2012

Simon, if you're still checking the proposals, I'd like to add the suggestion of checking for required entry size limits:

In the Challenge creating page, Hosts would have two fields: W=__ px and H=__ px to enter the picture size limits if they want so.
There should be three more radio-buttons defining:

  • Portrait & Landscape (to be ticked if both aspects are acceptable)

  • Fixed Value (meaning the host is forcing the entry size as entered values indicate)

  • Maximum Value (meaning entries can be equal to or smaller than entered values)

When hosts want to allow any size, they just leave the W and H fields empty.

When hosts want to allow limited size for both aspects, they tick Portrait & Landscape in addition to the size values.

Typically, I'd enter W=1600 px, H=1600 px and tick Portraits & Landscape and Maximum Value buttons. It would mean that format and aspect is as the Entrant wishes, as long as the maximum longer size of the entry is equal or less than 1600 pixels.

This could save significant time to both Hosts and Entrants, since the diagnostic / warning to Entrants would be issued at the submission point. It would do away with unnecessary DQ's. There would be less frustration with repeated uploads.

The percentage of DQ'd entries rises steadily... Gods alone know why people won't bother to upload their works correctly prepared, but the size limiting rules do cause anywhere between 30% to 50% of disqualifications.

That's why I think this proposal would be welcome (along with automatic checking on Date Taken , which works in most cases where EXIF is present / required).

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thanasaki
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Re: Update on Challenges Development
In reply to Scott Everett, May 31, 2012

In the recent site update (yesterday) of DPreview, still nothing has changed in "challenges". In between many hosts and active members are losing their mood for participating and going away. Please DPreview, do the promised changes and don't let "challenges" die.

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Scott Everett
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Re: Update on Challenges Development
In reply to thanasaki, May 31, 2012

All of the current work going on has to do with the back-end architecture of the site, predominantly related to the way forums work. Unfortunately we have a backlog of work that while important, is not visible to DPR users. But I will definitely be posting here in advance of implementation of changes to challenges.

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thanasaki
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Re: Update on Challenges Development
In reply to Scott Everett, Jun 1, 2012

Thank you Scott for your kind reply. We all are still waiting...

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AlexBakerPhotoz
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Re: Or a judge panel
In reply to bikinchris, Jun 2, 2012

I'm all for judged challenges and would enjoy being a host for this. I think I have pretty good judgement after over 40 years as a photographer I was a host for quite a while, but have been on hiatus for a year or so, due to all these well known frustrations. I have, however, continued to enter other challenges right along and have now entered over a 1000 DPReview challenges, won a few and placed in the top 20 many times. I do this for several reasons: first to challenge myself by submitting my work to the judgment of others, second to see if there seems to be a trend in that judgement and thirdly to improve my work by comparing it to what seems to be more "popular." The main result is that I really have improved technically which has been very satisfying and have a better good idea of what will win votes over what will not. (pretty and perfect technique is always a good combo).

While, I guess cheating has become an issue, I have mostly ignored it, since generally in a 1000+ challenges, the most highly place photos are quite good. Of course I sometimes think the 8th place finisher is better than the 3rd or even 1st.

SO perhaps, if DPR is willing, we could try having two types of challenges, some judged by a host or panel of judges and some by popular vote, then we could have 2 ways of irritating people instead of just one. Really that's how art is always judged, there is the public and the critics/scholars. Norman Rockwell vs. Pablo Picasso.
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jrtrent
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Re: Update on Challenges Development
In reply to Scott Everett, Jun 3, 2012

Scott Everett wrote:

But I will definitely be posting here in advance of implementation of changes to challenges.

So the changes haven't taken place yet? Good, I can enjoy voting on challenges for a bit longer, then. Thanks.

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thanasaki
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Re: Update on Challenges Development
In reply to Scott Everett, Jun 28, 2012

What's up, dear Scott?

We haven't seen any news for a long time nor any changes. In between, I am afraid, more and more people are going away and "challenges" getting poorer. You have always been a kind person and a "challenges" fan, please do the best you can for applying even few of the planned changes . Cheers!

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l_objectif
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Re: Update on Challenges Development
In reply to thanasaki, Jun 28, 2012

+2

Scott,

I am sure you are following all the threads and posts about sandbagging; and I am sure you agree that this should stop ASAP!

Best regards,
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OneThird
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Re: Update on Challenges Development
In reply to Scott Everett, Jun 29, 2012

Thank you Scott.

I like to see a break down of what the voters liked or disliked about my entry. Here's what I am suggesting:

originality - 30%
creativity - 30%
visual appeal - 15%
composition - 10%
artisitic merit - 10%
public voting - 5%

Each rating can be 1 to 5 with the overall score calculated at the end. Public voting will have less effect on the overall score (thus the end of sandbagging).

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onlooker
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Re: Update on Challenges Development
In reply to OneThird, Jun 29, 2012

OneThird wrote:

I like to see a break down of what the voters liked or disliked about my entry. Here's what I am suggesting:

originality - 30%
creativity - 30%
visual appeal - 15%
composition - 10%
artisitic merit - 10%
public voting - 5%

"public voting" as a criteria in public voting? scratching head

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RaptorUK
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Re: Update on Challenges Development
In reply to OneThird, Jun 29, 2012

OneThird wrote:

Thank you Scott.

I like to see a break down of what the voters liked or disliked about my entry. Here's what I am suggesting:

originality - 30%
creativity - 30%
visual appeal - 15%
composition - 10%
artisitic merit - 10%
public voting - 5%

Each rating can be 1 to 5 with the overall score calculated at the end. Public voting will have less effect on the overall score (thus the end of sandbagging).

Said the person that has found the current system so onerous that he/she has only managed 2 votes . . . .

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OneThird
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Re: Update on Challenges Development
In reply to onlooker, Jun 29, 2012

onlooker wrote:

OneThird wrote:

I like to see a break down of what the voters liked or disliked about my entry. Here's what I am suggesting:

originality - 30%
creativity - 30%
visual appeal - 15%
composition - 10%
artisitic merit - 10%
public voting - 5%

"public voting" as a criteria in public voting? scratching head

Anyone who votes.. friends, family, co-workers, etc. Are they not the public?

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OneThird
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Re: Update on Challenges Development
In reply to RaptorUK, Jun 29, 2012

RaptorUK wrote:

OneThird wrote:

Thank you Scott.

I like to see a break down of what the voters liked or disliked about my entry. Here's what I am suggesting:

originality - 30%
creativity - 30%
visual appeal - 15%
composition - 10%
artisitic merit - 10%
public voting - 5%

Each rating can be 1 to 5 with the overall score calculated at the end. Public voting will have less effect on the overall score (thus the end of sandbagging).

Said the person that has found the current system so onerous that he/she has only managed 2 votes . . . .

-- hide signature --

Take a look at my album . . . http://www.F1Album.com

honestly, I'm not sure how the voting system works. If I give a photo a 3.5 and someone else gives the same photo a 5, what criteria are we both basing this on? I like to see more weight on the technical aspect rather than just a single vote.

Anyone who has been voted down will still be able to place higher if their picture is technically strong. It will also provide quick feedback to some of us who are left scratching our heads and wondering where they went wrong.

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jrtrent
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Re: Update on Challenges Development
In reply to OneThird, Jun 29, 2012

OneThird wrote:

originality - 30%
creativity - 30%
visual appeal - 15%
composition - 10%
artisitic merit - 10%
public voting - 5%

"public voting" as a criteria in public voting? scratching head

Anyone who votes.. friends, family, co-workers, etc. Are they not the public?

The headscratcher for me is, if public voting accounts for 5% of the vote, who are the non-public voters that are judging originality, creativity, visual appeal, composition, and artistic merit? As far as I know, all the voting at DPReview is done by "the public."

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onlooker
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Re: Update on Challenges Development
In reply to OneThird, Jun 29, 2012

OneThird wrote:

onlooker wrote:

OneThird wrote:

I like to see a break down of what the voters liked or disliked about my entry. Here's what I am suggesting:

originality - 30%
creativity - 30%
visual appeal - 15%
composition - 10%
artisitic merit - 10%
public voting - 5%

"public voting" as a criteria in public voting? scratching head

Anyone who votes.. friends, family, co-workers, etc. Are they not the public?

But right now all is done by public voting, so I don't understand the distinction. Are you suggesting that 95% of the weight should be done outside of public voting? If so, then I am with you 100%. I have long proposed to abandon public voting altogether. There is simply no way (economically) to ensure fairness and to prevent cheating.

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l_objectif
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Re: Update on Challenges Development
In reply to onlooker, Jun 29, 2012

Somebody once suggested that a team made of hosts should vote (judge!) and in that case, the total of the votes should count!

I wonder if that could work?...
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