Sony didn't sell its 24MP APS-C sensor (yet)

Started Apr 28, 2012 | Discussions
TrojMacReady
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Sony didn't sell its 24MP APS-C sensor (yet)
Apr 28, 2012

Already had my doubts, but the RAW files speak volumes.

Sony 24MP APS-C sensor at ISO 100 (NEX 7, A77 and A65 look similar), shadows pushed a bit, all NR turned off, blackpoint set to zero (no noise hidden through clipping):

D3200 sensor at ISO 100, shadows pushed an equal amount:

Anyone who's been using Sony Exmor sensors (Sony, Pentax, D7000/D5100) the past years, knows you can easily push low ISO shadows without seeing much or any junk appear. That's the trademark of the sensors and the reason for high DR.

The D3200 does not have a Sony Exmor design, that's absolutely clear from the crops above.

The white dandruff like dots at high ISO are also a sign as we haven't seen those since the first Exmor sensors (A700, A500).
The last hint is the visual layout of the sensor, which is very different.

Nikon D3200 Nikon D7000 Sony Alpha DSLR-A500 Sony SLT-A65 Sony SLT-A77
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Clayton1985
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Re: Sony didn't sell its 24MP APS-C sensor (yet)
In reply to TrojMacReady, Apr 28, 2012

I realize you may be posting this because of previous posts about the D3200 intended to provoke and create controversy.

That being the case I don't see why anyone would expect Nikon to push the limits of the Sony sensor (or any other sensor) for their entry level DSLR. My guess is that there will be at least one more 24mp DX camera released this year and it will need to be better than the D3200.

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panos_m
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I just did a similar comparison...
In reply to TrojMacReady, Apr 28, 2012

...for a thread in the Nikon forum. DPR studio shots. Linear push 4 stops. Raw color. Gamma 2.2. I do not see the difference your conversions demonstrate. What was your processing? ISO 100. D3200 left, NEX 7 right:

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danny006
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Re: I just did a similar comparison...
In reply to panos_m, Apr 28, 2012

I was waiting for the D3200 to show up in Studio Comparison Tool. Now, where is the 2 stops difference with A65/A77 ? I don't see it.
And again, Sony pictures are sharper than Nikon, and less noise in JPEG's

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/studio-compare#baseDir=%2Freviews_data&cameraDataSubdir=boxshot&indexFileName=boxshotindex.xml&presetsFileName=boxshotpresets.xml&showDescriptions=false&headerTitle=Studio%20scene&headerSubTitle=Standard%20studio%20scene%20comparison&masterCamera=nikon_d3200&masterSample=dsc_0020&slotsCount=4&slot0Camera=nikon_d3200&slot0Sample=dsc_0020&slot0DisableCameraSelection=true&slot0DisableSampleSelection=true&slot0LinkWithMaster=true&slot1Camera=sony_slta65&slot1Sample=dsc02913&slot2Camera=canon_eos7d&slot2Sample=canon7d_nrstand_iso1600&slot3Camera=nikon_d7000&slot3Sample=nikond7000_nrn_iso%201600&x=0.061705213578769756&y=0.6484094447987053 .

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/studio-compare#baseDir=%2Freviews_data&cameraDataSubdir=boxshot&indexFileName=boxshotindex.xml&presetsFileName=boxshotpresets.xml&showDescriptions=false&headerTitle=Studio%20scene&headerSubTitle=Standard%20studio%20scene%20comparison&masterCamera=nikon_d3200&masterSample=dsc_0020&slotsCount=4&slot0Camera=nikon_d3200&slot0Sample=dsc_0020&slot0DisableCameraSelection=true&slot0DisableSampleSelection=true&slot0LinkWithMaster=true&slot1Camera=sony_slta65&slot1Sample=dsc02913&slot2Camera=canon_eos7d&slot2Sample=canon7d_nrstand_iso1600&slot3Camera=nikon_d7000&slot3Sample=nikond7000_nrn_iso%201600&x=-0.3531791625217115&y=0.238883235121286

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TrojMacReady
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Re: Sony didn't sell its 24MP APS-C sensor (yet)
In reply to Clayton1985, Apr 28, 2012

Clayton1985 wrote:

I realize you may be posting this because of previous posts about the D3200 intended to provoke and create controversy.

That being the case I don't see why anyone would expect Nikon to push the limits of the Sony sensor (or any other sensor) for their entry level DSLR. My guess is that there will be at least one more 24mp DX camera released this year and it will need to be better than the D3200.

It could well be that Nikon will use the Sony Exmor 24MP sensor for a higher level camera, say a suggested D400.

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mike_2008
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Re: I just did a similar comparison...
In reply to danny006, Apr 28, 2012

danny006 wrote:

I was waiting for the D3200 to show up in Studio Comparison Tool. Now, where is the 2 stops difference with A65/A77 ? I don't see it.
And again, Sony pictures are sharper than Nikon, and less noise in JPEG's

Weird huh. What are the nikon trolls going to do now?

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TomvL
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Re: Sony didn't sell its 24MP APS-C sensor (yet)
In reply to TrojMacReady, Apr 28, 2012

Wow, what a difference! Should I now sell my camera, or not?
So if I want to shoot white dandruff then I should use a Sony? Or should I not?

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phiri
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Re: I just did a similar comparison...
In reply to mike_2008, Apr 28, 2012

mike_2008 wrote:

danny006 wrote:

I was waiting for the D3200 to show up in Studio Comparison Tool. Now, where is the 2 stops difference with A65/A77 ? I don't see it.
And again, Sony pictures are sharper than Nikon, and less noise in JPEG's

Weird huh. What are the nikon trolls going to do now?

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Hell hath no fury like an ovf-shooter scorned.

Seriously you guys must be something else. This is Nikon entry camera and can stand up well with Sony's flagship. If we are happy comparing the two then it means that Nikon is in its own league when its entry level camera can be comfortably compared to another company's flagship
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dannybgoode
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Re: I just did a similar comparison...
In reply to phiri, Apr 28, 2012

phiri wrote:

Seriously you guys must be something else. This is Nikon entry camera and can stand up well with Sony's flagship. If we are happy comparing the two then it means that Nikon is in its own league when its entry level camera can be comfortably compared to another company's flagship
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/39182144@N03/

Lets be honest. IQ on all APS-C cameras is getting pretty close. Some perform a little better here, some there but by and large the differential is not great.

Features however, now this where the real differences are. So, in the red corner - the Nikon D3200. 19 point focus system with 11 cross points? No. Auto bracketing? No. 100% viewfinder (EVF, OVF who cares?)? No. Weather sealing? Thought not. Magnesium body? Two dial control and multi point joystick (makes handling significantly better)? Ah, no. Full time phase detect autofocus in movie mode? Out of luck there. Articulated screen, 1/8000 shutter speed, sweep panorama, in camera HDR and DRO? Sorry kid.

I'm not a Sony fanboy, you could make the same comparison against Nikon's own range and the Canon 60D and 7D. Does the sensor and performance make the D3200 better than the D7000?

Its not just ISO performance at 3200+ that makes a camera a flagship camera or not, get real.

I've come from a Canon 50D, would I contemplate a D3200. Absolutely not, nor would I go for a Canon 600D, Sony A37 or 57, Pentax Kr etc

Cheers

Danny B

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PierreChris
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Re: I just did a similar comparison...
In reply to dannybgoode, Apr 28, 2012

If the image IQ is better from a entry level camera, no matter what other possibility's the A77 (Flagship) has, then there's a problem for Sony !! don't you think.

dannybgoode wrote:

phiri wrote:

Seriously you guys must be something else. This is Nikon entry camera and can stand up well with Sony's flagship. If we are happy comparing the two then it means that Nikon is in its own league when its entry level camera can be comfortably compared to another company's flagship
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/39182144@N03/

Lets be honest. IQ on all APS-C cameras is getting pretty close. Some perform a little better here, some there but by and large the differential is not great.

Features however, now this where the real differences are. So, in the red corner - the Nikon D3200. 19 point focus system with 11 cross points? No. Auto bracketing? No. 100% viewfinder (EVF, OVF who cares?)? No. Weather sealing? Thought not. Magnesium body? Two dial control and multi point joystick (makes handling significantly better)? Ah, no. Full time phase detect autofocus in movie mode? Out of luck there. Articulated screen, 1/8000 shutter speed, sweep panorama, in camera HDR and DRO? Sorry kid.

I'm not a Sony fanboy, you could make the same comparison against Nikon's own range and the Canon 60D and 7D. Does the sensor and performance make the D3200 better than the D7000?

Its not just ISO performance at 3200+ that makes a camera a flagship camera or not, get real.

I've come from a Canon 50D, would I contemplate a D3200. Absolutely not, nor would I go for a Canon 600D, Sony A37 or 57, Pentax Kr etc

Cheers

Danny B

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dannybgoode
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Re: I just did a similar comparison...
In reply to PierreChris, Apr 28, 2012

PierreChris wrote:

If the image IQ is better from a entry level camera, no matter what other possibility's the A77 (Flagship) has, then there's a problem for Sony !! don't you think.

Not really as we're talking about pixel peeping levels of difference here. Real world there's nothing in it and a good photo from either camera is down to the operator not the kit itself.

I've seen some simply awesome shots on here from Canon 10D's, Nikon D50's, Sony A100's etc. Much better than anything some could take with a 1D X, D800 whatever.

And bear in mind, the IQ is really no different at ISO's 100-1600. I'd happily go head to head with my A77 against someone new to photography who's just bought a D3200. Hell, I'd go against them with my old 50D...

Cheers

Danny B
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Shoot lots...

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TrojMacReady
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Re: Sony didn't sell its 24MP APS-C sensor (yet)
In reply to TomvL, Apr 28, 2012

TomvL wrote:

Wow, what a difference! Should I now sell my camera, or not?
So if I want to shoot white dandruff then I should use a Sony? Or should I not?

I think you fully missed the point. It' s been suggested many times that Sony made a capital mistake for its Alpha range by letting Nikon use its top of the range APS-C sensor in a cheap entry level Nikon.

I showed Sony didn't sell it (yet). That's all there is to it. I'll leave the weighing of the different IQ's to the intended buyers.

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phiri
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Re: I just did a similar comparison...
In reply to dannybgoode, Apr 28, 2012

dannybgoode wrote:

phiri wrote:

Seriously you guys must be something else. This is Nikon entry camera and can stand up well with Sony's flagship. If we are happy comparing the two then it means that Nikon is in its own league when its entry level camera can be comfortably compared to another company's flagship
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/39182144@N03/

Lets be honest. IQ on all APS-C cameras is getting pretty close. Some perform a little better here, some there but by and large the differential is not great.

Features however, now this where the real differences are. So, in the red corner - the Nikon D3200. 19 point focus system with 11 cross points? No. Auto bracketing? No. 100% viewfinder (EVF, OVF who cares?)? No. Weather sealing? Thought not. Magnesium body? Two dial control and multi point joystick (makes handling significantly better)? Ah, no. Full time phase detect autofocus in movie mode? Out of luck there. Articulated screen, 1/8000 shutter speed, sweep panorama, in camera HDR and DRO? Sorry kid.

I'm not a Sony fanboy, you could make the same comparison against Nikon's own range and the Canon 60D and 7D. Does the sensor and performance make the D3200 better than the D7000?

Its not just ISO performance at 3200+ that makes a camera a flagship camera or not, get real.

I've come from a Canon 50D, would I contemplate a D3200. Absolutely not, nor would I go for a Canon 600D, Sony A37 or 57, Pentax Kr etc

Cheers

Danny B

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That is my whole point. Comparing these two makes no sense and it only makes the flagship camera look worse. Even myself I passed the stage where I can buy the D3200. I like a solid camera with as many manual controls as possible. But for those coming from P&S, the many manual controls the camera has, the more put off they will be. No so many people want to be confronted for the first time with a camera that terrifies them with lack of knowledge where to start from
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/39182144@N03/

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dannybgoode
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Re: I just did a similar comparison...
In reply to phiri, Apr 28, 2012

phiri wrote:

dannybgoode wrote:

phiri wrote:

That is my whole point. Comparing these two makes no sense and it only makes the flagship camera look worse. Even myself I passed the stage where I can buy the D3200. I like a solid camera with as many manual controls as possible. But for those coming from P&S, the many manual controls the camera has, the more put off they will be. No so many people want to be confronted for the first time with a camera that terrifies them with lack of knowledge where to start from

Go on then. I'll rise to the bait just once more but only because I'm bored. How on earth does it make Sony look bad?! And wasn't it you comparing them in the first place?!

How many people coming from a P&S are going to make the jump to something like the A77 anyway? They'd be going for the A33 37 or 57 (or Eos 1100D etc).

I reckon I could post 10 images on here from 10 different cameras, remove the exif data and I'd eat my right testicle and give you $1m if you could tell me which photo came from each camera.

I shoot landscape mainly at 100 iso, tripod mounted, variety of filters. I want absolute control over my camera, something the A77 gives me and the D3200 doesn't.

The image quality will be the same from both - heck I've took some pretty good photos with my 50D. I've even got some from my 10 year old Ixus 500 P&S that would pass muster.

Anyway, seeing as I can't get out of the house at the moment I think I'll go and drink bleach or something. Got to entertain myself somehow...

Cheers

Danny B

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Dave Oddie
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Re: I just did a similar comparison...
In reply to phiri, Apr 28, 2012

phiri wrote:

dannybgoode wrote:

phiri wrote:

Seriously you guys must be something else. This is Nikon entry camera and can stand up well with Sony's flagship. If we are happy comparing the two then it means that Nikon is in its own league when its entry level camera can be comfortably compared to another company's flagship
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/39182144@N03/

Lets be honest. IQ on all APS-C cameras is getting pretty close. Some perform a little better here, some there but by and large the differential is not great.

Features however, now this where the real differences are. So, in the red corner - the Nikon D3200. 19 point focus system with 11 cross points? No. Auto bracketing? No. 100% viewfinder (EVF, OVF who cares?)? No. Weather sealing? Thought not. Magnesium body? Two dial control and multi point joystick (makes handling significantly better)? Ah, no. Full time phase detect autofocus in movie mode? Out of luck there. Articulated screen, 1/8000 shutter speed, sweep panorama, in camera HDR and DRO? Sorry kid.

I'm not a Sony fanboy, you could make the same comparison against Nikon's own range and the Canon 60D and 7D. Does the sensor and performance make the D3200 better than the D7000?

Its not just ISO performance at 3200+ that makes a camera a flagship camera or not, get real.

I've come from a Canon 50D, would I contemplate a D3200. Absolutely not, nor would I go for a Canon 600D, Sony A37 or 57, Pentax Kr etc

Cheers

Danny B

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That is my whole point. Comparing these two makes no sense and it only makes the flagship camera look worse.

The points made by dannybgoode explain why exactly the opposite is the case. How can a flagship camera "look worse" when it is stuff full of features lacking in on the entry level camera?

Those of us old enough to have shot film come from a time when the "sensor" i.e. the film meant if you put the same film and same lens on an entry level and pro level Nikon you would get identical images.

The pro level camera did not look "worse" because of this.

We are now getting to that stage in aps-c cameras. People will still buy higher specced cameras over entry level ones regardless.

You really need to get over this idiotic warped logic.

Even myself I passed the stage where I can buy the D3200. I like a solid camera with as many manual controls as possible. But for those coming from P&S, the many manual controls the camera has, the more put off they will be. No so many people want to be confronted for the first time with a camera that terrifies them with lack of knowledge where to start from

So they will buy an entry level camera. They may well buy the 3200 because its got 24mp on the tin over an entry level Canon, Pentax or Sony that has 16mp but that is just the way the market progresses. No one who wants a higher level camera will buy the 3200 over a Canon 7D or Sony A77 etc regardless of sensor performance.

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underxposed59
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Re: I just did a similar comparison...
In reply to dannybgoode, Apr 28, 2012

dannybgoode wrote:

phiri wrote:

dannybgoode wrote:

phiri wrote:

That is my whole point. Comparing these two makes no sense and it only makes the flagship camera look worse. Even myself I passed the stage where I can buy the D3200. I like a solid camera with as many manual controls as possible. But for those coming from P&S, the many manual controls the camera has, the more put off they will be. No so many people want to be confronted for the first time with a camera that terrifies them with lack of knowledge where to start from

Go on then. I'll rise to the bait just once more but only because I'm bored. How on earth does it make Sony look bad?! And wasn't it you comparing them in the first place?!

How many people coming from a P&S are going to make the jump to something like the A77 anyway? They'd be going for the A33 37 or 57 (or Eos 1100D etc).

"I reckon I could post 10 images on here from 10 different cameras, remove the exif data and I'd eat my right testicle and give you $1m if you could tell me which photo came from each camera."

The same sentiment is expressed in this fine article only not quite as colorfully.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/quality-vs-value.shtml

I shoot landscape mainly at 100 iso, tripod mounted, variety of filters. I want absolute control over my camera, something the A77 gives me and the D3200 doesn't.

The image quality will be the same from both - heck I've took some pretty good photos with my 50D. I've even got some from my 10 year old Ixus 500 P&S that would pass muster.

Anyway, seeing as I can't get out of the house at the moment I think I'll go and drink bleach or something. Got to entertain myself somehow...

Cheers

Danny B

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TrojMacReady
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This
In reply to Dave Oddie, Apr 28, 2012

Dave Oddie wrote:

No one who wants a higher level camera will buy the 3200 over a Canon 7D or Sony A77 etc regardless of sensor performance.

This. Probably should have started my OP with that, to take away from anyone attempting to throw in the argument as shown by Phiri.

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RandyPD
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Re: Sony didn't sell its 24MP APS-C sensor (yet)
In reply to TrojMacReady, Apr 28, 2012

Its still not conclusive that Sony didn't make or did make the sensor. Like somebody else pointed it here, there maybe variations in the packaging that Sony does now for other camera makers that they didn't do before. Then there is the issue of microlenses used and how it affects image quality. I think the jury is still out on who made the sensor; we cannot say with 100% certainty who is the manufacturer.

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RandyPD
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Re: This
In reply to TrojMacReady, Apr 28, 2012

This like choosing between a Nikon D7000 and a D5100, both using the same sensor. Same with the Canon 7D and T3i.

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TrojMacReady
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Re: Sony didn't sell its 24MP APS-C sensor (yet)
In reply to RandyPD, Apr 28, 2012

RandyPD wrote:

Its still not conclusive that Sony didn't make or did make the sensor. Like somebody else pointed it here, there maybe variations in the packaging that Sony does now for other camera makers that they didn't do before. Then there is the issue of microlenses used and how it affects image quality. I think the jury is still out on who made the sensor; we cannot say with 100% certainty who is the manufacturer.

Pretty conclusive to me as the microlenses and packaging aren't going to change the read noise curve to the extend we can witness in the RAW files.

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