Canon New Sensor

Started Apr 28, 2012 | Discussions
Ramesh
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Canon New Sensor
Apr 28, 2012

Since the best Canon cameras at present (1D X & 5D III) decidedly fall short of comparable Nikon models particularly in low ISO performance, will Canon incorporate a better sensor in the forthcoming lesser models? From the discussions it is obvious that Canon is still using sensors developed at its old Fab. Will Canon be bold enough to introduce upgraded sensors in lesser models?
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Pedro Moreira
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Re: Canon New Sensor
In reply to Ramesh, Apr 28, 2012

Do you have a 1Dx?

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Birdman7
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Re: Low ISO, the 'new' reference standard?
In reply to Ramesh, Apr 28, 2012

Pre-D800, the onus was on high ISO performance as a a reference for a sensor performance, now its low ISO and DR.

Canon sensors have better DR & noise control at high ISO and Nikons seems to have better DR and shadow recovery at low ISO.

Both sensors are good and each have its pros and cons, both companies will periodically marginally overtake each other from time to time which is good news for all of us.

Get over it and keep taking pictures,

Regards.

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Rickuz
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Re: Low ISO, the 'new' reference standard?
In reply to Birdman7, Apr 28, 2012

I hope that Canon's failure on improving the low ISO DR, has hit them pretty hard - like a hard slap in their face. I also hope this face slap woke them up, and that they are now doing their best to bring something to the table that can compete with Nikon's (Sony's) new sensor.

Yesterday CR reported that there are 5 new sensors being tested right now, and that we might se a new FF camera by the end of 2012. Hopefully one with at least 14 stops of DR.

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Birdman7
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Re: Low ISO, the 'new' reference standard?
In reply to Rickuz, Apr 28, 2012

From what iv seen from the nkon sensors, I have to admit I like its shadow-noiseless recovery performance, I cannot replicate that on my 5d2 at base ISO.

If Canon can bring a rabbit out of the hat and improve that, il b happier than I already am

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Rick Knepper
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Sure why not?
In reply to Ramesh, Apr 28, 2012

I do not know anything about the 1D X sensor because I have not really followed those discussions but the main 5D3 mission obviously was to improve the AF system and shooting speed. Mission accomplished and it seems to have made many happy and I am happy for them. Quite frankly, if my shooting needs change, it is nice to know that there is a capable product available.

I am sure Canon's little market surveys told them that a majority of customers wanted AF and speed over resolution and Canon responded (since surveys do not identify the level of knowledge of respondents as a first priority, and Nikon/Sony pulled the surprise of the decade, the results may have fooled Canon). I wish the 5D3 had been the 5D2 but maybe the tech wasn't available 3.5 years ago.

I do not see why Canon wouldn't answer the D800. My only concern is that Canon and Nikon seem to stubbornly adhere to some sort of roadmap even if it is detrimental. IMO, both the 5D3 and D800 were late by 3+ yhears.

Ramesh wrote:

Since the best Canon cameras at present (1D X & 5D III) decidedly fall short of comparable Nikon models particularly in low ISO performance, will Canon incorporate a better sensor in the forthcoming lesser models? From the discussions it is obvious that Canon is still using sensors developed at its old Fab. Will Canon be bold enough to introduce upgraded sensors in lesser models?
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oscarvdvelde
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Re: Canon New Sensor
In reply to Pedro Moreira, Apr 28, 2012

Pedro Moreira wrote:

Do you have a 1Dx?

I'm curious about that sensor too. It is even mentioned in its announcement that it has a larger dynamic range. I'd be disappointed if we have to wait another 3 years before a new full frame camera is announced. They placed 5D III at $3500 so now we have space for a 6D with swivel screen and 1Dx image quality or high resolution but not speed at $2200. Too bad we have to skip at least one summer for that.

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yabokkie
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Re: Canon New Sensor
In reply to Ramesh, Apr 28, 2012

it's almost five years since the nearly dead Nikon came back and beat the hell out of Canon with D3, D300, and then D3X and D700. the same question should be asked back then and the answer is no.

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meland
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Re: Low ISO, the 'new' reference standard?
In reply to Rickuz, Apr 28, 2012

Rickuz wrote:

I hope that Canon's failure on improving the low ISO DR, has hit them pretty hard - like a hard slap in their face. I also hope this face slap woke them up, and that they are now doing their best to bring something to the table that can compete with Nikon's (Sony's) new sensor.

Yesterday CR reported that there are 5 new sensors being tested right now, and that we might se a new FF camera by the end of 2012. Hopefully one with at least 14 stops of DR.

Only 14 stops DR? And how long will that satisfy you for?

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ArminH
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Re: Canon New Sensor
In reply to yabokkie, Apr 28, 2012

5DIII has a great sensor.
Yes, D800 has more DR at low ISO.
That's NOT important for all use cases.

1Dx Sensor? Who knows?
Lets wait and see what is improved compared to the 5DIII sensor.

Most of us invested in a SYSTEM - and this system in THIS forum is Canon.
The body is only a small part of the system the rest is glass, flash, ...
One of the main points is the different UI - some like Canon others Nikon.

I use my Leica X1 (Sony sensor) a lot - and yes, even the X1 sensor is great a low light recovery - so I am used to it.

And before buying my 5DIII I ordered a D800 - but did not like the Nikon glass - there is NOTHING close to the glass I use:

85 f1.2 - not available from Nikon
16-35 f2.8 - not available from Nikon
TS-E 24 - not even close to the Canon glass
100-400 - not available from Nikon
24-105 - not available from Nikon
100 Macro IS - I prefer the Canon one

Most new Nikon glass feels like toys - and I hate the sign 'Made in China' on all the new Nikon glass.

Other D800 points:
-36 MP are hard to handle - beside large files - slow pp
-Live view is a joke in the D800
-ISO switch on the left side(!)
-Inbuilt HDR only with jpg
-High ISO performance better in 5DIII
-Color cast on the D800 display
-I love the new radio controlled Canon Speedlite's - nothing close from Nikon
(beside a pop up flash)
-5DIII feels much better in my big hands than D800
-AF seams to be better in 5DIII
-The silent video control on the 5DIII is great
-Silent shutter much better in the 5DIII - works not only for single shoots

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Rickuz
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Re: Low ISO, the 'new' reference standard?
In reply to meland, Apr 28, 2012

Much longer than the year 2007 DR standard from the 5D2 and 5D3 sensor.

meland wrote:

Rickuz wrote:

I hope that Canon's failure on improving the low ISO DR, has hit them pretty hard - like a hard slap in their face. I also hope this face slap woke them up, and that they are now doing their best to bring something to the table that can compete with Nikon's (Sony's) new sensor.

Yesterday CR reported that there are 5 new sensors being tested right now, and that we might se a new FF camera by the end of 2012. Hopefully one with at least 14 stops of DR.

Only 14 stops DR? And how long will that satisfy you for?

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meland
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Re: Low ISO, the 'new' reference standard?
In reply to Rickuz, Apr 28, 2012

More likely only until something marginally better in terms of DR comes along, or there is a new flavour of the month, must have specification. I give it less than a year.

Rickuz wrote:
Much longer than the year 2007 DR standard from the 5D2 and 5D3 sensor.

meland wrote:

Rickuz wrote:

I hope that Canon's failure on improving the low ISO DR, has hit them pretty hard - like a hard slap in their face. I also hope this face slap woke them up, and that they are now doing their best to bring something to the table that can compete with Nikon's (Sony's) new sensor.

Yesterday CR reported that there are 5 new sensors being tested right now, and that we might se a new FF camera by the end of 2012. Hopefully one with at least 14 stops of DR.

Only 14 stops DR? And how long will that satisfy you for?

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DotCom Editor
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Must be time for ESP
In reply to Ramesh, Apr 28, 2012

Ramesh wrote:

[W]ill Canon incorporate a better sensor in the forthcoming lesser models?

  1. How would we know? We are not clairvoyant. Your question is therefore merely rhetorical in nature, making no real-world sense.

  2. Have you asked Canon? Yeah, I didn't think so.

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Rickuz
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Re: Low ISO, the 'new' reference standard?
In reply to meland, Apr 28, 2012

Increased dynamic range is the flavour of the month? Oh lol.

Alright you ignorant dumbass, I'll play. Lets say that a feature that is very important to you doesn't get upgraded over the course of five years. FPS, High ISO (you name it). Meanwhile the main competitor's brand offers huge advancements in this feature, that you have been waiting for so eagerly.

Will you complain about this obviously disappointing failure, or will you just bend over in silence and accept it?

And please don't give me some BS about "so easy just switching brands". It is not that simple.

meland wrote:

More likely only until something marginally better in terms of DR comes along, or there is a new flavour of the month, must have specification. I give it less than a year.

Rickuz wrote:
Much longer than the year 2007 DR standard from the 5D2 and 5D3 sensor.

meland wrote:

Rickuz wrote:

I hope that Canon's failure on improving the low ISO DR, has hit them pretty hard - like a hard slap in their face. I also hope this face slap woke them up, and that they are now doing their best to bring something to the table that can compete with Nikon's (Sony's) new sensor.

Yesterday CR reported that there are 5 new sensors being tested right now, and that we might se a new FF camera by the end of 2012. Hopefully one with at least 14 stops of DR.

Only 14 stops DR? And how long will that satisfy you for?

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Press Correspondent
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Patent restrictions
In reply to Ramesh, Apr 28, 2012

There is no new sensor. While Canon is like the second or third highest patent company in the world (after IBM), they totally missed the boat on this one. There are only a couple ways to read the sensor data. One is pixel by pixel, the other is row by row yielding a much lower read noise. (Or something like this.) The latter was patented by Sony, so Canon simply may not have an technical option there to compete.

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meland
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Re: Low ISO, the 'new' reference standard?
In reply to Rickuz, Apr 28, 2012

Rickuz wrote:

Increased dynamic range is the flavour of the month? Oh lol.

What I actually said was "More likely only until something marginally better in terms of DR comes along, or there is a new flavour of the month, must have specification." Please note the comma used in this sentence - I never said DR was flavour of the month.

Alright you ignorant dumbass, I'll play.

Kindly do not call me or anyone else an ignorant dumbass. I never insulted you and your remark is unnecessarily rude. I will now ask you to kindly retract it and apologise.

Lets say that a feature that is very important to you doesn't get upgraded over the course of five years. FPS, High ISO (you name it). Meanwhile the main competitor's brand offers huge advancements in this feature, that you have been waiting for so eagerly.

Will you complain about this obviously disappointing failure, or will you just bend over in silence and accept it?

And please don't give me some BS about "so easy just switching brands". It is not that simple.

I had no intention of doing so - please do not presume so either.

meland wrote:

More likely only until something marginally better in terms of DR comes along, or there is a new flavour of the month, must have specification. I give it less than a year.

Rickuz wrote:
Much longer than the year 2007 DR standard from the 5D2 and 5D3 sensor.

meland wrote:

Rickuz wrote:

I hope that Canon's failure on improving the low ISO DR, has hit them pretty hard - like a hard slap in their face. I also hope this face slap woke them up, and that they are now doing their best to bring something to the table that can compete with Nikon's (Sony's) new sensor.

Yesterday CR reported that there are 5 new sensors being tested right now, and that we might se a new FF camera by the end of 2012. Hopefully one with at least 14 stops of DR.

Only 14 stops DR? And how long will that satisfy you for?

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Taikonaut
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Re: Low ISO, the 'new' reference standard?
In reply to Rickuz, Apr 28, 2012

Don't forget D800 has better low ISO DR than D4 so does that mean Nikon have to slap themselves silly?

Truth of the matter is DR is already high enough at low ISO but were DR is really needed most is high ISO dealing with low light were DR decreases on all cameras.

Rickuz wrote:

I hope that Canon's failure on improving the low ISO DR, has hit them pretty hard - like a hard slap in their face. I also hope this face slap woke them up, and that they are now doing their best to bring something to the table that can compete with Nikon's (Sony's) new sensor.

Yesterday CR reported that there are 5 new sensors being tested right now, and that we might se a new FF camera by the end of 2012. Hopefully one with at least 14 stops of DR.

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filmluvr
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Re: Patent restrictions
In reply to Press Correspondent, Apr 28, 2012

Press Correspondent wrote:

...they totally missed the boat on this one.

They sure did. I've watched as one-by-one Canon's competitors have created and patented innovative new technology targeted at increasing dynamic range. The 5D and 5D2 were milestones to be sure, but while Canon has been relaxing in the sun, others were pursuing a different tact. I complained about the poor DR of DSLRs even as I was of necessity switching from film. It's not only disappointing that Canon still has little new to offer in this area, but alarming as well. I believe the next two or three years will be critical for Canon in terms of the DSLR market. They don't necessarily have to be better than or even the equal of every competitor, but they need to narrow the gap significantly. It remains to be seen whether that wil be possible in light of their late entry into the DR race.

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Press Correspondent
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High ISO
In reply to Birdman7, Apr 28, 2012

Birdman7 wrote:

Canon sensors have better DR & noise control at high ISO

Not true. There are numerous references that D800 normalized to 22mp exceeds 5D3 in DR at high ISO. Using the DXOmark data, D800 theoretically beats 5D3 at ISO 25,600 by 0.1 stop of DR. Using the SNR data gives a similarly small advantage to Canon. Either way the difference is within the margin of error and cannot be consistently observed on many posted test shots. The bottom line is that the notion that Canon has any advantage at high ISO is no longer true. Sony and Nikon have managed to pull the resolution and low ISO DR trick without surrendering the high ISO to Canon.

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Taikonaut
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Re: High ISO
In reply to Press Correspondent, Apr 28, 2012

Pity D800 AWB, speed, AF accuracy, ergonomics, LCD, high ISO is not a match on the 5DIII. It is like putting a Ferrari engine inside a crapped out Skoda and expect it to run well.

Press Correspondent wrote:

Birdman7 wrote:

Canon sensors have better DR & noise control at high ISO

Not true. There are numerous references that D800 normalized to 22mp exceeds 5D3 in DR at high ISO. Using the DXOmark data, D800 theoretically beats 5D3 at ISO 25,600 by 0.1 stop of DR. Using the SNR data gives a similarly small advantage to Canon. Either way the difference is within the margin of error and cannot be consistently observed on many posted test shots. The bottom line is that the notion that Canon has any advantage at high ISO is no longer true. Sony and Nikon have managed to pull the resolution and low ISO DR trick without surrendering the high ISO to Canon.

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