3rd PP'er party that retains in camera setting When Shooting RAW?

Started Apr 27, 2012 | Discussions
MrStiles
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3rd PP'er party that retains in camera setting When Shooting RAW?
Apr 27, 2012

Does anyone know of a 3rd party program that retains in camera setting When Shooting RAW?, besides the one that came with the camera?, I've heard Lightroom has a tab called "develop preset" that does that, sort of? I know FastStone does, but it doesn't have enough edit features for me.

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suddie1215
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Re: 3rd PP'er party that retains in camera setting When Shooting RAW?
In reply to MrStiles, Apr 27, 2012

Third party raw processors invariably do not apply all in-camera settings. One program I can think of that does is BreezeBrowser Pro but its raw processing interface needs updating to make it more intuitive: http://breezesys.com/BreezeBrowser/index.htm

There are others like DCRaw which are command-line only and are mode difficult to master.

MrStiles wrote:

Does anyone know of a 3rd party program that retains in camera setting When Shooting RAW?, besides the one that came with the camera?, I've heard Lightroom has a tab called "develop preset" that does that, sort of? I know FastStone does, but it doesn't have enough edit features for me.

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goanna
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Re: 3rd PP'er party that retains in camera setting When Shooting RAW?
In reply to MrStiles, Apr 27, 2012

I am curious why you would want this however my understanding (i may be completley incorrect) that what you are asking for is an oxymoron.

Raw is exactly that - no in camera settings retained so that you can do it yourself.

Lightroom however does have camera profiles for many DSLR cameras (I do not know about P&S cameras) that simulate the "in camera" settings.

In LR you access this in the developement module under "Camera Calibration"

You can set it as a preset if you wish so that it is applied during import.

I hope someone can shed some more light on this but AFAIK, rightly or wrongly, that when you shoot raw there is no info in the file that can tell any sofware what the "in camera" settings were.
If I am incorrect I hope someone can provide the info. here.

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fuego6
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Re: 3rd PP'er party that retains in camera setting When Shooting RAW?
In reply to goanna, Apr 28, 2012

goanna wrote:

I hope someone can shed some more light on this but AFAIK, rightly or wrongly, that when you shoot raw there is no info in the file that can tell any sofware what the "in camera" settings were.
If I am incorrect I hope someone can provide the info. here.

Yeah - you are incorrect... Let's use Nikon and Nikon Capture as an example. When you first load a RAW file in that software, the in camera settings are immediately applied to that image. Thus, what you first see will use those settings. Its why beginners complain and say "When I open the RAW file with LR it looks completely different than when I open it with Nikon Capture... CApture looks like the image but LR doesn't..!".

As you rightly state, you can use LR to setup develop presets (or use the presets for cameras that others have created) to approximate the appearance of what the camera typically would display. That's not to say it will be 100% accurate... but is a good starting point.

This article will explain things a bit further and hopefully will help... http://darrellyoung.blogspot.com/2011/01/do-camera-settings-affect-raw-nef-files.html

EnjoY!

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suddie1215
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Re: 3rd PP'er party that retains in camera setting When Shooting RAW?
In reply to goanna, Apr 28, 2012

goanna wrote:

I am curious why you would want this however my understanding (i may be completley incorrect) that what you are asking for is an oxymoron.

Actually its an entirely reasonable question.

Raw is exactly that - no in camera settings retained so that you can do it yourself.

That's not correct. All the in-camera settings are saved in the EXIF metadata of each raw file. That's what allows the raw conversion software provided by the camera manufacturer to perform conversions that incorporate the "in camera" settings. If you use an application like EXIFTool to examine raw files you'd see that all possible camera settings are retained.

Why third-party software programmers don't use the in-camera settings is a different question. I suspect that it comes down to the fact that they don't have access to the camera manufacturers' specifications or "special tweaks" for their raw files and they are unwilling to risk violating the intellectual property rights of the manufacturers by reverse engineering those specs.

So third-party converters seem to limit themselves to just using the basic exposure settings saved in the raw file: ISO, shutter speed, aperture, White Balance, and a tone curve based on what they determine looks best for an initial rendering.

Recall that a few years ago Nikon took the then unprecedented step of encrypting White Balance information for their high-end digital cameras and ignited a dispute between themselves and Adobe. You can read some of the details here: http://www.dpreview.com/news/2005/4/22/nikonnefresponse

Lightroom however does have camera profiles for many DSLR cameras (I do not know about P&S cameras) that simulate the "in camera" settings.

Adobe's Camera Matching Profiles used in Lightroom and ACR do not "simulate the "in camera" settings." They attempt to match the camera's native color rendition but there are other factors that are included in "in camera" settings. Canon cameras use Picture Styles and Nikon uses Picture Controls that include Contrast, Saturation, Sharpening, and Color Tone(Hue). The camera profiles don't address these settings. Also, advanced "in camera" settings like D-Lighting, Advanced Lighting Optimizer, etc. aren't addressed.

Adobe's website says the following: http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/DNG_Profiles

We have been actively working on improving color rendering for digital raw photographs. Our new color rendering package contains the following components:

● the DNG Specification, which expands and formalizes the concept of a color profile for raw (i.e., scene-referred) image data captured by digital sensors,

● Adobe Standard camera profiles that significantly improve color rendering, especially in reds, yellows, and oranges,

● Camera Matching profiles that match the camera manufacturers' color appearance,

Notice that they are only specify color color and say nothing about the Picture Style/Controls settings lwhich also influence how the preview jpeg embedded in the raw file or the JPEG when shooting Raw+JPEG are rendered.

In LR you access this in the developement module under "Camera Calibration"

You can set it as a preset if you wish so that it is applied during import.

I hope someone can shed some more light on this but AFAIK, rightly or wrongly, that when you shoot raw there is no info in the file that can tell any sofware what the "in camera" settings were.
If I am incorrect I hope someone can provide the info. here.

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JJMacks
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Re: 3rd PP'er party that retains in camera setting When Shooting RAW?
In reply to MrStiles, Apr 28, 2012

MrStiles wrote:

Does anyone know of a 3rd party program that retains in camera setting When Shooting RAW?, besides the one that came with the camera?, I've heard Lightroom has a tab called "develop preset" that does that, sort of? I know FastStone does, but it doesn't have enough edit features for me.

I do not think your asking the correct question. I do no believe the camera manufactures setting are being striped from your RAW files. There just are not in your RGB file.

I think what you want to know is why don't third party RAW converter use and copy camera makers metadata into the RGB image files they create during their conversion process.

The is a big problem there is no standard for recording such data. Camera makes do their own thing they don't even record the data the same way for every camera they make. Camera makers have even been known to encrypt some of this data. Even if third party RAW converters copied all camera makers meta data into the RGB image files by embedding the original RAW file like Adobe DGN conversion option you would need to extract the RAW file to use the camera makers data for even the Camera makers own software would know that the RGB image file was not created by their firmware and would not find their meta data that is in the file .
--
JJMack

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goanna
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Re: 3rd PP'er party that retains in camera setting When Shooting RAW?
In reply to suddie1215, Apr 28, 2012

Hi Suddie

Thanks for putting me on the right track

suddie1215 wrote:

goanna wrote:

I am curious why you would want this however my understanding (i may be completley incorrect) that what you are asking for is an oxymoron.

Actually its an entirely reasonable question.

Raw is exactly that - no in camera settings retained so that you can do it yourself.

That's not correct. All the in-camera settings are saved in the EXIF metadata of each raw file. That's what allows the raw conversion software provided by the camera manufacturer to perform conversions that incorporate the "in camera" settings. If you use an application like EXIFTool to examine raw files you'd see that all possible camera settings are retained.

Why third-party software programmers don't use the in-camera settings is a different question. I suspect that it comes down to the fact that they don't have access to the camera manufacturers' specifications or "special tweaks" for their raw files and they are unwilling to risk violating the intellectual property rights of the manufacturers by reverse engineering those specs.

So third-party converters seem to limit themselves to just using the basic exposure settings saved in the raw file: ISO, shutter speed, aperture, White Balance, and a tone curve based on what they determine looks best for an initial rendering.

Recall that a few years ago Nikon took the then unprecedented step of encrypting White Balance information for their high-end digital cameras and ignited a dispute between themselves and Adobe. You can read some of the details here: http://www.dpreview.com/news/2005/4/22/nikonnefresponse

Lightroom however does have camera profiles for many DSLR cameras (I do not know about P&S cameras) that simulate the "in camera" settings.

Adobe's Camera Matching Profiles used in Lightroom and ACR do not "simulate the "in camera" settings." They attempt to match the camera's native color rendition but there are other factors that are included in "in camera" settings. Canon cameras use Picture Styles and Nikon uses Picture Controls that include Contrast, Saturation, Sharpening, and Color Tone(Hue). The camera profiles don't address these settings. Also, advanced "in camera" settings like D-Lighting, Advanced Lighting Optimizer, etc. aren't addressed.

When I said simulate I use simulate in the context that they are not a copy
Perhaps I should have said "attempt to simulate"

Adobe's website says the following: http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/DNG_Profiles

We have been actively working on improving color rendering for digital raw photographs. Our new color rendering package contains the following components:

● the DNG Specification, which expands and formalizes the concept of a color profile for raw (i.e., scene-referred) image data captured by digital sensors,

● Adobe Standard camera profiles that significantly improve color rendering, especially in reds, yellows, and oranges,

● Camera Matching profiles that match the camera manufacturers' color appearance,

Notice that they are only specify color color and say nothing about the Picture Style/Controls settings lwhich also influence how the preview jpeg embedded in the raw file or the JPEG when shooting Raw+JPEG are rendered.

In LR you access this in the developement module under "Camera Calibration"

You can set it as a preset if you wish so that it is applied during import.

I hope someone can shed some more light on this but AFAIK, rightly or wrongly, that when you shoot raw there is no info in the file that can tell any sofware what the "in camera" settings were.
If I am incorrect I hope someone can provide the info. here.

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fuego6
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Re: 3rd PP'er party that retains in camera setting When Shooting RAW?
In reply to MrStiles, Apr 30, 2012

Lol.. guess nobody bothered to read my post.. oh well... so it goes.

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