Fred Miranda comparison confirms DXO results. 5D III blown away.

Started Apr 26, 2012 | Discussions
Montana500
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Fred Miranda comparison confirms DXO results. 5D III blown away.
Apr 26, 2012

I've always wondered about the dynamic range of my Canon cameras at low ISO (especially 7D and 5D II). Well, now I know why. This isn't even close, folks. The Nikon sensor is quite simply in another league.

http://www.fredmiranda.com/5DIII-D800/index_controlled-tests.html

This is an enormous benefit for nature shooters.

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Hank3152
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Re: Fred Miranda comparison confirms DXO results. 5D III blown away.
In reply to Montana500, Apr 26, 2012

Good to know since I was contemplating buying the 5DIII later this year when they get the bugs worked out and if/when they provide a rebate......in the meantime I'll continue to enjoy my 1DmkIV..........

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rwbaron
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Re: Fred Miranda comparison confirms DXO results. 5D III blown away.
In reply to Montana500, Apr 26, 2012

Already posted and discussed ad nauseam on this forum. You'd have to be living under a rock to not know the advantages of the Sony Exmor sensor by now. Maybe someday Canon will be using it too or according to some their DSLR division will go the way of the dodo bird.

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kelpdiver
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Re: Fred Miranda comparison confirms DXO results. 5D III blown away.
In reply to Montana500, Apr 26, 2012

not convinced about the decision to interpolate (and not describe how) the canon image to 36mp. That seems even less appropriate than downscaling the D800 down. Leaves you wondering how much of the difference is real versus the upscale.

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stephenmelvin
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Old news
In reply to Montana500, Apr 26, 2012

This was reported a few days ago, and it's not a surprise, really.

Thing is, the DR advantage of the D800 goes away rapidly as the ISO goes up. It's about 2 1/2 stops at ISO 100, but by ISO 160, it's under two stops (9.12 vs 10.84). At ISO 320, the advantage is about a stop (8.89 vs 9.95) and by ISO 1280, they're practically the same.

So while the low ISO dynamic range of the D800 is extremely good, depending on how a photographer uses his camera, it may matter greatly, or it may not matter at all.

As for me, maybe one photo in ten is taken at ISO 100. I'd like to have the extra DR, sure, but it's not where I make my living.

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Victor Engel
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Re: Fred Miranda comparison confirms DXO results. 5D III blown away.
In reply to kelpdiver, Apr 26, 2012

I usually get around this objection by resizing both. But with good algorithms, it doesn't seem to matter much.
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gipper51
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Re: Fred Miranda comparison confirms DXO results. 5D III blown away.
In reply to kelpdiver, Apr 26, 2012

kelpdiver wrote:

not convinced about the decision to interpolate (and not describe how) the canon image to 36mp. That seems even less appropriate than downscaling the D800 down. Leaves you wondering how much of the difference is real versus the upscale.

Why would throwing information away from the bigger file to match the lower res camera be the better way? By this method an 80mp medium format camera will only be 'marginally' more detailed than a 8mp 20D if you scaled it down.

You always scale the lower res camera up.

But yes, from what I've seen the differences in 22 vs 36mp are often not that great. There is more res in the larger file but it's not as earth shattering as so many make it sound. I've found the same between my 5D and 5D2.
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stephenmelvin
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nope
In reply to gipper51, Apr 26, 2012

gipper51 wrote:

kelpdiver wrote:

not convinced about the decision to interpolate (and not describe how) the canon image to 36mp. That seems even less appropriate than downscaling the D800 down. Leaves you wondering how much of the difference is real versus the upscale.

Why would throwing information away from the bigger file to match the lower res camera be the better way?? By this method an 80mp medium format camera will only be 'marginally' more detailed than a 8mp 20D if you scaled it down.

You always scale the lower res camera up.

Nope, you scale the higher res camera down. It will still possess an advantage, since it starts with a lot more information.

That's how DXO does it for part of their test.

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garyknrd
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Re: Fred Miranda comparison confirms DXO results. 5D III blown away.
In reply to Montana500, Apr 26, 2012

Montana500 wrote:

I've always wondered about the dynamic range of my Canon cameras at low ISO (especially 7D and 5D II). Well, now I know why. This isn't even close, folks. The Nikon sensor is quite simply in another league.

http://www.fredmiranda.com/5DIII-D800/index_controlled-tests.html

This is an enormous benefit for nature shooters.

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Unfortunately i have to agree. If I could stick my Canon lens on that Nikon body even with frame rate slow. i would have pre-ordered. But!!!!!!

I have decided to not spend another dime on Canon gear. Until I see a good crop sensor body. Even thou I have to funds I refuse to go FF for nature photography.

They are getting hammered by Sony. Amazing why they don't go ahead and use Sony sensors in there cameras.

Canon is a monster of a company. Sometimes that is not a good thing when change is needed.

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gipper51
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Re: nope
In reply to stephenmelvin, Apr 26, 2012

stephenmelvin wrote:

gipper51 wrote:

kelpdiver wrote:

not convinced about the decision to interpolate (and not describe how) the canon image to 36mp. That seems even less appropriate than downscaling the D800 down. Leaves you wondering how much of the difference is real versus the upscale.

Why would throwing information away from the bigger file to match the lower res camera be the better way?? By this method an 80mp medium format camera will only be 'marginally' more detailed than a 8mp 20D if you scaled it down.

You always scale the lower res camera up.

Nope, you scale the higher res camera down. It will still possess an advantage, since it starts with a lot more information.

That's how DXO does it for part of their test.

That may be their method, but that's just stupid IMHO for the real world...for the very reason I listed above.

It's like telling your rich friend: "Hey buddy, but this limiter chip in your Ferrari so it only goes 65mph and my Buick will get us to New York just as fast!".

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stephenmelvin
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But that's not how it works
In reply to gipper51, Apr 26, 2012

gipper51 wrote:

stephenmelvin wrote:

gipper51 wrote:

kelpdiver wrote:

not convinced about the decision to interpolate (and not describe how) the canon image to 36mp. That seems even less appropriate than downscaling the D800 down. Leaves you wondering how much of the difference is real versus the upscale.

Why would throwing information away from the bigger file to match the lower res camera be the better way?? By this method an 80mp medium format camera will only be 'marginally' more detailed than a 8mp 20D if you scaled it down.

You always scale the lower res camera up.

Nope, you scale the higher res camera down. It will still possess an advantage, since it starts with a lot more information.

That's how DXO does it for part of their test.

That may be their method, but that's just stupid IMHO for the real world...for the very reason I listed above.

But that's not how it works in the real world, when you print the image out. You do print, don't you?

So, for example, you want to print an 8x12 on a printer that's 300 ppi. That's about 8 megapixels. Guess what? The RIP throws the extra resolution away.

This is why the D800's resolution advantage doesn't show up until the prints get really big.

It's like telling your rich friend: "Hey buddy, but this limiter chip in your Ferrari so it only goes 65mph and my Buick will get us to New York just as fast!".

It's nothing like that.

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WalterSrChat
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Fredmiranda Proves What?
In reply to Montana500, Apr 26, 2012

My first question is whether an adaptor was used on the 800D with the same lens that was used on the 5D III with an adaptor. If not, the fairness of the comparison is questionable, because adding a lens adaptor to a lens changes the light reaching the camera sensor.

My second quest is whether upsizing or downsizing is really meaningful when comparing two cameras with different pixel counts. If both the 5D II and the 800D had an equal amount of pixels, used an identical lens, both with or without adaptors, and scene, the comparison would have merit.

Why not just look at a 5D III and 800D at their 100% magnification and say, here is what we have, because in the end, it is the photographer that makes the difference.

Last year I read an article about a street Photographer who was using a pinhole camera, and was making a living taking passport pictures and manually developing those pictures on site, he is a first class Professional PHOTOGRAPHER and Artist!!!!!

Walter Sr

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healer81
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TheCameraStore shows a little differently
In reply to Montana500, Apr 26, 2012

Not sure if that site is reliable or not.

The video comparison at The Camera Store on youtube shows marginal difference in DR. With the Nikon winning it in DR and detail.

The testers were both Nikon users so it was pretty unbiased.

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Victor Engel
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Re: Fredmiranda Proves What?
In reply to WalterSrChat, Apr 26, 2012

If the lens can be mounted on Nikon without an adapter lens, it can be mounted on Canon without a supplemental lens. I doubt such a lens was used or it would have been mentioned.
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EvokeEmotion
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Re: Fredmiranda Proves What?
In reply to WalterSrChat, Apr 26, 2012

I am quite sure you won't need any adaptor to mount an EF or EF-S lens to an 800D, because it will be a Canon camera from the future.

WalterSrChat wrote:

My first question is whether an adaptor was used on the 800D with the same lens that was used on the 5D III with an adaptor. If not, the fairness of the comparison is questionable, because adding a lens adaptor to a lens changes the light reaching the camera sensor.

My second quest is whether upsizing or downsizing is really meaningful when comparing two cameras with different pixel counts. If both the 5D II and the 800D had an equal amount of pixels, used an identical lens, both with or without adaptors, and scene, the comparison would have merit.

Why not just look at a 5D III and 800D at their 100% magnification and say, here is what we have, because in the end, it is the photographer that makes the difference.

Last year I read an article about a street Photographer who was using a pinhole camera, and was making a living taking passport pictures and manually developing those pictures on site, he is a first class Professional PHOTOGRAPHER and Artist!!!!!

Walter Sr

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gipper51
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Re: But that's not how it works
In reply to stephenmelvin, Apr 26, 2012

stephenmelvin wrote:

gipper51 wrote:

stephenmelvin wrote:

gipper51 wrote:

kelpdiver wrote:

not convinced about the decision to interpolate (and not describe how) the canon image to 36mp. That seems even less appropriate than downscaling the D800 down. Leaves you wondering how much of the difference is real versus the upscale.

Why would throwing information away from the bigger file to match the lower res camera be the better way?? By this method an 80mp medium format camera will only be 'marginally' more detailed than a 8mp 20D if you scaled it down.

You always scale the lower res camera up.

Nope, you scale the higher res camera down. It will still possess an advantage, since it starts with a lot more information.

That's how DXO does it for part of their test.

That may be their method, but that's just stupid IMHO for the real world...for the very reason I listed above.

But that's not how it works in the real world, when you print the image out. You do print, don't you?

Maybe once or twice.

So, for example, you want to print an 8x12 on a printer that's 300 ppi. That's about 8 megapixels. Guess what? The RIP throws the extra resolution away.

This is why the D800's resolution advantage doesn't show up until the prints get really big.

Very true, but what's the point of comparing resolutions if we're doing it at sizes that 22 vs 36mp doesn't matter? The 36mp will make a difference when printing at sizes larger than 35mm format was designed for, so why "throw away" the reason you paid for more pixels and then compare it to a lower res camera?

It's like telling your rich friend: "Hey buddy, but this limiter chip in your Ferrari so it only goes 65mph and my Buick will get us to New York just as fast!".

It's nothing like that.

You're right, I should have referred to the 5D3 as a Porsche instead of a Buick
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WalterSrChat
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Re: Fredmiranda Proves What?
In reply to EvokeEmotion, Apr 26, 2012

EvokeEmotion wrote:

Ok!!

WalterSrChat wrote:

My first question is whether an adaptor was used on the 800D with the same lens that was used on the 5D III with an adaptor. If not, the fairness of the comparison is questionable, because adding a lens adaptor to a lens changes the light reaching the camera sensor.

My second quest is whether upsizing or downsizing is really meaningful when comparing two cameras with different pixel counts. If both the 5D II and the 800D had an equal amount of pixels, used an identical lens, both with or without adaptors, and scene, the comparison would have merit.

Why not just look at a 5D III and 800D at their 100% magnification and say, here is what we have, because in the end, it is the photographer that makes the difference.

Last year I read an article about a street Photographer who was using a pinhole camera, and was making a living taking passport pictures and manually developing those pictures on site, he is a first class Professional PHOTOGRAPHER and Artist!!!!!

Walter Sr

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carlk
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Re: TheCameraStore shows a little differently
In reply to healer81, Apr 26, 2012

healer81 wrote:

Not sure if that site is reliable or not.

The video comparison at The Camera Store on youtube shows marginal difference in DR. With the Nikon winning it in DR and detail.

The testers were both Nikon users so it was pretty unbiased.

Fred Miranda is a Canon user. I'm sure he's more well known than the "Camera Store" guys.

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tony field
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Re: Fred Miranda comparison confirms DXO results. 5D III blown away.
In reply to gipper51, Apr 26, 2012

gipper51 wrote:

You always scale the lower res camera up.

I agree with this. Why bother with a high pixel count camera if you do not use it as such. You want to see the difference between the high count and low count images. On the other hand, if all you do is display for web or maybe make an 8x10 print on occasion, who cares what the pixel count is.

But yes, from what I've seen the differences in 22 vs 36mp are often not that great. There is more res in the larger file but it's not as earth shattering as so many make it sound. I've found the same between my 5D and 5D2.

I consider that there is a noticeable difference between the 5D and 5D-II when printing 16x20 prints (my normal display size).

However, the telling difference between the 5D-II and D800 at ISO 100 is in dynamic range and this is very noticeable on a print. You can much more easily control shadows and highlight on the D800 and, if you know how to get modulated shadows in post processing (considering how difficult this is to do when processing for a print), you can create images with beautiful shadow tones and highlight.

Even at high ISO, the extra detail from the D800 will be noticeable when you carefully can remove high frequency noise.
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carlk
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Re: Old news
In reply to stephenmelvin, Apr 26, 2012

stephenmelvin wrote:

This was reported a few days ago, and it's not a surprise, really.

Thing is, the DR advantage of the D800 goes away rapidly as the ISO goes up. It's about 2 1/2 stops at ISO 100, but by ISO 160, it's under two stops (9.12 vs 10.84). At ISO 320, the advantage is about a stop (8.89 vs 9.95) and by ISO 1280, they're practically the same.

So while the low ISO dynamic range of the D800 is extremely good, depending on how a photographer uses his camera, it may matter greatly, or it may not matter at all.

As for me, maybe one photo in ten is taken at ISO 100. I'd like to have the extra DR, sure, but it's not where I make my living.

Op said he's a nature shooter. I'm sure he's not too interested in high ISO shooting. Matter of fact no body should be shooting high ISO if can be avoided because it always compromises the IQ no matter what camera you're using.

The other way to put it is the best IQ D800 can produce (@ ISO100) can be better than the best IQ 5DIII can. That point should not be missed by people who are looking for ways to get the best IQ they could.

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