D800E: moire and PP

Started Apr 25, 2012 | Discussions
Mark B UK
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D800E: moire and PP
Apr 25, 2012

I'm wondering whether to buy a D800 or D800E. If I go for the latter, how easily can I remove/correct moire in PP? I would prefer to use Aperture, but can use Capture NX2 if needs be.

As a RAW-only shooter I would prefer the additional sharpness of the 'E', but only if moire can easily be resolved in PP. If it's hard to remove then maybe the standard version is preferable.

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3LX
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Re: D800E: moire and PP
In reply to Mark B UK, Apr 25, 2012

I don't know how easy it is to remove, but bear in mind with a D800 you may also have to remove moire.

I took an image recently on my D700 that exhibited moire and in all probability if I had shot the same scene with a D800E I wouldn't have got any.

We haven't got any definitive proof yet but there is a consensus here that the D800 and D800E will both display moire for the same shooting situations it's just the E version will accentuate it more.

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Re: D800E: moire and PP
In reply to Mark B UK, Apr 25, 2012

Unless you are shooting specifically only those things that are moire traps, I wouldn't worry about it. I just don't believe this will be a huge issue. If I were doing studio work with a 200mm f2 lens I might be concerned (maybe the sharpest lens on the planet). I might even be concerned if I did a lot of tripod shooting with other very sharp lenses, like the 300mm f2.8. However, with a good lens at f5.6 or f8, especially handheld, I am not worried about it. I'm not worried at all shooting handheld, which is 90% of what I do. Your situation might be different. But I don't believe there will be a big difference in moire generation between the two cameras in every day usage. Eventually you will get it with any digital camera, but hopefully you will have more than one shot to choose from.

If you can actually lay hands on the E model, I wouldn't let it pass me by. That thing is going to be hard to get, from cradle to grave (the replacement model in a few years). I don't have mine yet, and I'm not sure I get it this year. Nikon isn't saying much about it lately, production-wise.

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Dennis DH
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Re: D800E: moire and PP
In reply to BackInTheGame, Apr 25, 2012

Moire is showing up once in a while with my D800 as it does have a very weak filter. It would show up more in the D800E and I have seen at least two time where moire was objectionable in bird feathers with the D800E. I have also seen moire from the D800E in tree branches.
The moire remove tools soften the image.

I really don’t think even in a large print you will see a difference in a properly processed image with the D800 and the D800E. The difference is very small.
I don’t think you can go wrong with either camera.

I have had my D800 over a month now and I am glad I have the regular D800 and not the D800E. But I not only do landscapes but also portraits.

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bobn2
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Re: D800E: moire and PP
In reply to Mark B UK, Apr 25, 2012

Mark B UK wrote:

I'm wondering whether to buy a D800 or D800E. If I go for the latter, how easily can I remove/correct moire in PP?

The answer to this is how much you like or dislike aliasing. Moiré is often used as a synonym for aliasing artifacts, but it is only one of the sypmtoms, and probably the most easy to deal with.

For a start you cannot remove or correct aliasing. Aliasing is caused when the sensor does not sample at a sufficient rate to capture all of the information in the scene projected on the sensor. The result is that there is ambiguity in the information captured, it could represent one of many scenes, potentially an infinite number. The artifacts happen because lacking the full information to reconstruct the original scene, scenes that are visibly and sometimes objectionably different from the original scene get reconstructed. Since the information is lacking, there is no way that you can reconstruct the scene to what it should have been. What you can sometimes do is reconstruct a convincing representation of a best guess at what the scene might have been. So, in no particular order, the kind of aliasing artifacts that you get:

Colour Moiré - this is probably the simplest to deal with. You select the affected area, desaturate it (convert it to monochrome) then recolour it with what you think is the right colour. This can be complicated in areas with complex coloured patterns.

Luminance Moiré - this is a bit more tricky. Presumably what you'd need to do is reconstruct the right texture, perhaps by cloning from an area with a similar pattern.

Jaggies - when thin wires and similar objects instead of having smooth edges gaine jagged ones, and along with the changes in thickness (converting a wire to a string of beads) - can sometimes be dealt with by blurring, thinning and sharpening, or cloning from another area.

Tessellation - where textures get squared off, happens in distant roofs, coarse sand or snow, things like that. I don't know - maybe you could judiciously mix in a little noise to break up the textures.

'Crunchy' texture - the sum subjective effect of all those little artifacts, the textures look hard and 'crunchy' - some people actually prefer it.

So, the point is about how much effort it takes depends on how objectionable you find it and how much you want to deal with.

For myself, I would never, ever buy a D800E. The main advantage to me of the high resolution high DR sensor is that provides an opportunity to capture a more accurate representation of the scene than any other camera. To then remove the AA filter so that inaccuracies, that will have to be corrected, are built in seems perverse to me.
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Raul
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Re: D800E: moire and PP
In reply to bobn2, Apr 25, 2012

bobn2 wrote:

For myself, I would never, ever buy a D800E. The main advantage to me of the high resolution high DR sensor is that provides an opportunity to capture a more accurate representation of the scene than any other camera. To then remove the AA filter so that inaccuracies, that will have to be corrected, are built in seems perverse to me.

For myself, I would never, ever buy the D800!

regards

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bobn2
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Re: D800E: moire and PP
In reply to Raul, Apr 25, 2012

Raul wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

For myself, I would never, ever buy a D800E. The main advantage to me of the high resolution high DR sensor is that provides an opportunity to capture a more accurate representation of the scene than any other camera. To then remove the AA filter so that inaccuracies, that will have to be corrected, are built in seems perverse to me.

For myself, I would never, ever buy the D800!

We all have our own preferences, and I don't expect yours to be mine. Have fun fixing all the aliasing (if it is the E that you are buying) unless of course you prefer it, in which case have fun with all your Moire, jaggies, tessellation and crunchiness.

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Aku Ankka
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Re: D800E: moire and PP
In reply to Mark B UK, Apr 25, 2012

Mark B UK wrote:

I'm wondering whether to buy a D800 or D800E. If I go for the latter, how easily can I remove/correct moire in PP? I would prefer to use Aperture, but can use Capture NX2 if needs be.

As a RAW-only shooter I would prefer the additional sharpness of the 'E', but only if moire can easily be resolved in PP. If it's hard to remove then maybe the standard version is preferable.

You may want to look at http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=65927.msg523744#msg523744 and other post from Bart to see if the very little extra E gives is worth it.

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Re: D800E: moire and PP
In reply to bobn2, Apr 25, 2012

bobn2 wrote:

For myself, I would never, ever buy a D800E. The main advantage to me of the high resolution high DR sensor is that provides an opportunity to capture a more accurate representation of the scene than any other camera. To then remove the AA filter so that inaccuracies, that will have to be corrected, are built in seems perverse to me.
--
Bob

There is a pretty good chance nobody will buy the E. Can't get the bloody things.

But I think you are being a little hard on the E model. It should do better than the Leica M9, simply based on pixel size. I think it will provide a lot of fantastic photos if it ever gets out there in numbers. And how strong can the D800 AA filter be? With that resolution it has to be almost nil. Maybe the D800 is the best choice based simply on price.

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Raul
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Thank you for your kind wishes
In reply to bobn2, Apr 25, 2012

bobn2 wrote:

We all have our own preferences, and I don't expect yours to be mine. Have fun fixing all the aliasing (if it is the E that you are buying) unless of course you prefer it, in which case have fun with all your Moire, jaggies, tessellation and crunchiness.

crunchiness is my choice. regards

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bobn2
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Re: Thank you for your kind wishes
In reply to Raul, Apr 25, 2012

Raul wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

We all have our own preferences, and I don't expect yours to be mine. Have fun fixing all the aliasing (if it is the E that you are buying) unless of course you prefer it, in which case have fun with all your Moire, jaggies, tessellation and crunchiness.

crunchiness is my choice. regards

Of course, did I say otherwise? My choice would be different but you know that.

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Bob

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bobn2
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Re: D800E: moire and PP
In reply to BackInTheGame, Apr 25, 2012

BackInTheGame wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

For myself, I would never, ever buy a D800E. The main advantage to me of the high resolution high DR sensor is that provides an opportunity to capture a more accurate representation of the scene than any other camera. To then remove the AA filter so that inaccuracies, that will have to be corrected, are built in seems perverse to me.
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Bob

There is a pretty good chance nobody will buy the E. Can't get the bloody things.

But I think you are being a little hard on the E model. It should do better than the Leica M9, simply based on pixel size. I think it will provide a lot of fantastic photos if it ever gets out there in numbers. And how strong can the D800 AA filter be? With that resolution it has to be almost nil.

You underestimate the resolving power of lenses. The D800 has the same size pixel as the D5100, and that is a Moire monster, even with its AA filter. Look at this example from big Ga

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1022&thread=38591628&page=1

Same pixel size, same lenses, no AA filter at all, there will be plenty of opportunity for aliasing.

Maybe the D800 is the best choice based simply on price.

I just can't see the point, when there are those already moaning that the D800 offers too much resolution, of risking losing shots to aliasing just to gain that little bit extra over what is already the best.
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Robin Casady
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Re: D800E: moire and PP
In reply to 3LX, Apr 25, 2012

Aperture seems to have a moiré reduction adjustment, but I haven't tried it. Only works on RAW images. See the Aperture Help.

Lightroom 4 has an effective moiré reduction adjustment brush.

3LX wrote:

I don't know how easy it is to remove, but bear in mind with a D800 you may also have to remove moire.

Here is a link to a video that demonstrates a fairly effective way to remove moiré in Photoshop.

http://vimeo.com/23508129

I took an image recently on my D700 that exhibited moire and in all probability if I had shot the same scene with a D800E I wouldn't have got any.

We haven't got any definitive proof yet but there is a consensus here that the D800 and D800E will both display moire for the same shooting situations it's just the E version will accentuate it more.

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luchs
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Re: D800E: moire and PP
In reply to Mark B UK, Apr 25, 2012

The E displays many Moire which the regular D800 also would. You get more Moire in Lightroom than OOC. In Lightroom it is usually easy to correct, if it matters. Often it does not.

Moire is overrated.

The D800 E produces a pixels sharpness with the right lens which is simply amazing.

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TOF guy
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Re: D800E: moire and PP
In reply to bobn2, Apr 26, 2012

Bob wrote:

For myself, I would never, ever buy a D800E. The main advantage to me of the high resolution high DR sensor is that provides an opportunity to capture a more accurate representation of the scene than any other camera. To then remove the AA filter so that inaccuracies, that will have to be corrected, are built in seems perverse to me.

The blurring introduced by an AA filter is also a form of inaccuracy.

The D800 has the same size pixel as the D5100, and that is a Moire monster, even with its AA filter. Look at this example from big Ga

In typical situations it is not the pixel density that matters, but the sensor resolution. If 2 picture of the same scene is taken, first with a DX camera, then with an FF camera of same pixel density, two situations present themselves:

  • the distance to subject and lens focal length are the same, which means that the scene by the DX camera will be a 1.5x crop of what the FF camera records, then aliasing on one camera will appear the same on the other (that is on the area which matches DX on the FF frame). But that's not how one usually proceeds.

  • more commonly focal length is adjusted to record the scene with the same composition. In which case the focal length on the FF camera is 1.5 longer. The very same part of the scene is now recorded with the full resolution of the FF camera, and will be more detailed by a 1.5x linear resolution factor on the FF frame (again we assume same pixel density)

there will be plenty of opportunity for aliasing.

Or there will be none if there are no recorded feature corresponding to frequencies smaller than the Nyquist limit.

I just can't see the point, when the D800 offers too much resolution,

Because it's not about resolution. It's about avoiding or at least using much less sharpening, which itself brings it own set of objectionable artifacts.
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Number 6
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Re: D800E: moire and PP
In reply to bobn2, Apr 26, 2012

bobn2, thanks for that outstanding reply!

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TOF guy
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Re: D800E: moire and PP
In reply to Mark B UK, Apr 26, 2012

Bob gave you a very good answer. I'll elaborate on the consequences of what he says:

  • Hate PP. Then be aware that some of the aliasing artifacts (there is much more to them than just moiré. as Bob explains) can be time consuming to remove (some simply impossible to remove in practical terms). So it may be best to stay away from the D800e in this case.

  • The camera is a professional tool. This needs to be thought of carefully. What if the money shot is ruined by severe moiré or other (and worse) aliasing artifacts? Also, does your activity allow for significant time spend on checking and correcting the shots? For instance I don't think it would be the right choice for a wedding photographer.

  • Taste. Some (like me!) find the blur introduced by AA filters very objectionable, and will use more sharpening to compensate. But then the very same people may not like the artifacts introduced by sharpening: halos, noise becoming more obstructive, etc. One may also like the "crunchiness" which Bob mentions: to these people's eyes it gives a "3D" feeling. Others on the contrary find it objectionable, it feels "digital"" to them (not my reaction but I respect all POVs on the subject). Definitely many here don't see much of a difference if any (then why bother with the significant increase in probability to have to deal with moiré and the like: the D800 is likely the best option). The bottom line is that you may want to wait for more pictures to be shown by D800/D800e owners to decide what you like best. It's a personal choice, none good or bad as long as you like the results you get.

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TOF guy
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The tree that hides the forest
In reply to Robin Casady, Apr 26, 2012

Robin posts a picture which shows moiré on images of the same scene taken by a D800 and D800e:

http:/ www.robincasady.com/temp/932-933_Moire800vs800E.jpg

To illustrate the following point:

There is a consensus here that the D800 and D800E will both display moire for the same shooting situations it's just the E version will accentuate it more.

If there is such a consensus (which I doubt) then I can tell you that a lot of people are disillusioning themselves and bound to be disappointed. Sure even a camera with a relatively strong AA filter (relative to the camera resolution) such as the D800 may show moiré on rare occasions. And in this case the D800e will look the same just with the moiré more pronounced. You've found an example. But this is just one example. I'd be careful to draw general conclusions from what is likely to be a very exceptional shot.

So far I've found aliasing artifacts (not limited to moiré) to be quite frequent on the few D800e images posted. And basically absent in the vast majority of D800 images. There is no doubt in my mind that aliasing in D800 pictures is going to be an non-issue for 99.999% of the shots. But the D800e is a different story (including moiré). Now it remains that some people will never see these until it's pointed to them. In which case it doesn't matter. But the artifacts will still be there.

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Robin Casady
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Re: The tree that hides the forest
In reply to TOF guy, Apr 26, 2012

TOF guy wrote:

Robin posts a picture which shows moiré on images of the same scene taken by a D800 and D800e:

To illustrate the following point:

You need to be more careful with quoting. 3LX wrote the following, not me:

There is a consensus here that the D800 and D800E will both display moire for the same shooting situations it's just the E version will accentuate it more.

If there is such a consensus (which I doubt) then I can tell you that a lot of people are disillusioning themselves and bound to be disappointed.

You are saying that a lot of people are freeing themselves from illusion? I guess that is what learning is, and many of us are here to learn. Disappointment is one of the risks you take when you abandon illusion.

Sure even a camera with a relatively strong AA filter (relative to the camera resolution) such as the D800 may show moiré on rare occasions.

Is there a consensus here that the D800 has a strong AA filter? I got the impression that some think it is rather weak. The evidence for that belief is the small resolution differences seen in D800 vs. D800E sample images.

And in this case the D800e will look the same just with the moiré more pronounced. You've found an example. But this is just one example. I'd be careful to draw general conclusions from what is likely to be a very exceptional shot.

It is wise not to draw too wide a conclusion from only one example. If examples are rare, one should look carefully at the example to see why it might or might not be an outlier from the norm.

The subject is window blinds. What about window blinds would cause moiré in both the D800E and D800 in some instances, but only the D800E in other instances? Look at how similar the intensity of moiré is in the two images. If moiré were subtle enough to not be seen it the D800, it seems that it would be very subtle in the D800E.

So far I've found aliasing artifacts (not limited to moiré) to be quite frequent on the few D800e images posted. And basically absent in the vast majority of D800 images.

Is this because people are intentionally posting moiré images to illustrate the discussion of moiré? Or are these general images not to that subject? Links would be helpful in backing up this statement.

There is no doubt in my mind that aliasing in D800 pictures is going to be an non-issue for 99.999% of the shots. But the D800e is a different story (including moiré).

With so fervent a belief, aren't you setting yourself up for the disappointment of disillusionment? Aren't you failing to take your own advice about drawing conclusions from limited data?

Now it remains that some people will never see these until it's pointed to them. In which case it doesn't matter. But the artifacts will still be there.

The pixel peepers will know as they hunch over their screens in the midnight hours, cursing under their breath...

The pixel peepers see all.

In ancient Britain they were known as the Pixies.
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Robin Casady
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Re: D800E: moire and PP
In reply to bobn2, Apr 26, 2012

bobn2 wrote:

Mark B UK wrote:

I'm wondering whether to buy a D800 or D800E. If I go for the latter, how easily can I remove/correct moire in PP?

The answer to this is how much you like or dislike aliasing.

vs. how much you dislike blurring and reduction in microcontrast—taking into account that the differences between the two cameras is fairly subtle.

If pixel peeping is your ultimate use for the image, then the difference become less subtle. At 200-400% they can be quite significant.

Moiré is often used as a synonym for aliasing artifacts, but it is only one of the sypmtoms, and probably the most easy to deal with...

Great rundown on the different classes of aliasing. Very helpful. Thanks.

So, the point is about how much effort it takes depends on how objectionable you find it and how much you want to deal with.

As well as how often you find that which you find objectionable.

For myself, I would never, ever buy a D800E. The main advantage to me of the high resolution high DR sensor is that provides an opportunity to capture a more accurate representation of the scene than any other camera. To then remove the AA filter so that inaccuracies, that will have to be corrected, are built in seems perverse to me.

TOF guy wrote:

The blurring introduced by an AA filter is also a form of inaccuracy.

Quite true. When you get down to the limits of the camera's resolution, you have to pick which form of inaccuracy you find least objectionable. There are some to which adding a fuzz filter seems perverse.
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