NX20 vs XPro-1 vs M9

Started Apr 23, 2012 | Discussions
Brond1
Regular MemberPosts: 322Gear list
Like?
NX20 vs XPro-1 vs M9
Apr 23, 2012

Aaaagh! I've just been mooching in Jessops and handling an XPro-1 and it doesnt quite do it for me.

I want a compact well made large sensor camera with a high quality evf, punchy manual focus assist and lenses that do not focus by bloody wire.

I have an NX10. I like the 20mm lens a lot, but autofocus cant guess what I want sharp. Novoflex plus my nikor 24mm makes camera too big. There is not Leica-M mount option.

So I went to look at the XPRO-1. It looks groovy and feels well made, but is also light and boxy. Not as dense and meaningful in the hand as the NX10. The viewfinder is better. It's lenses are fly by wire. What an own goal for camera aimed at wannabee Leicologists.

The M9. Not great in low light. Is a bit big and boxy to make it worth act of credit card insanity.

So maybe the NX20s viewfinder will be good enough, maybe they will get the promised 24mm premium out before 2015 (with proper manual focus)......

Always waiting for the perfect camera....never comes
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithernesto/

 Brond1's gear list:Brond1's gear list
Canon PowerShot S100 Fujifilm X-Pro1 Fujifilm XF 18mm F2 R Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XF 23mm F1.4 R
Samsung NX10 Samsung NX20
If you believe there are incorrect tags, please send us this post using our feedback form.
viking79
Forum ProPosts: 12,546Gear list
Like?
Re: NX20 vs XPro-1 vs M9
In reply to Brond1, Apr 23, 2012

Brond1 wrote:

Aaaagh! I've just been mooching in Jessops and handling an XPro-1 and it doesnt quite do it for me.

I want a compact well made large sensor camera with a high quality evf, punchy manual focus assist and lenses that do not focus by bloody wire.

Focus by wire will be the future of most AF lenses I am afraid. By the way, the Samsung 60mm f/2.8 and 85mm f/1.4 are not focus by wire, they are mechanically driven and can be focused with no power to the lens.

I have an NX10. I like the 20mm lens a lot, but autofocus cant guess what I want sharp. Novoflex plus my nikor 24mm makes camera too big. There is not Leica-M mount option.

If you want Leica M mount I think you can convert your Samsung NX to Leica M with a kit that removes the factory mount. Otherwise Sony NEX is a great choice for Leica M mount lenses.

So maybe the NX20s viewfinder will be good enough, maybe they will get the promised 24mm premium out before 2015 (with proper manual focus)......

AF lenses will never have proper manual focus.

Always waiting for the perfect camera....never comes

Agreed. Get what works best for what you want to do.

Eric
--
I never saw an ugly thing in my life: for let the form of an object
be what it may - light, shade, and perspective will always make it
beautiful. - John Constable (quote)

See my Blog at: http://www.erphotoreview.com/ (bi-weekly)
Flickr Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28177041@N03/ (updated daily)

 viking79's gear list:viking79's gear list
Sony SLT-A99 Sony Alpha 7R Sony Alpha 7 Samsung NX30 Samsung NX 30mm F2 Pancake +7 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
tecnoworld
Senior MemberPosts: 4,036Gear list
Like?
Re: NX20 vs XPro-1 vs M9
In reply to Brond1, Apr 23, 2012

viking already gave a very nice reply.

I simply add that, based on the specs, I don't think the EVF of NX20 will be particularly good. The fact that it seems sequential reminds me the one in the sony a55, which produces terrible rainbow effects and - for me - is unusable.

of course I could be wrong!

 tecnoworld's gear list:tecnoworld's gear list
Samsung TL500 Samsung NX100 Samsung NX200 Samsung NX300 Samsung NX 30mm F2 Pancake +10 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Brond1
Regular MemberPosts: 322Gear list
Like?
Re: NX20 vs XPro-1 vs M9
In reply to tecnoworld, Apr 23, 2012

Thank you both... just a burst of frustration.

Follow up re fly by wire: Nikon/Canon etc don't have fly by wire do they? Their lenses do have a stop at minimum focus and infinity plus markings... I think?

Or are you saying top manufacturers are heading towards that. I was pretty shocked that Fuji's lenses which are all around £500 are fly by wire.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithernesto/

 Brond1's gear list:Brond1's gear list
Canon PowerShot S100 Fujifilm X-Pro1 Fujifilm XF 18mm F2 R Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XF 23mm F1.4 R
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
viking79
Forum ProPosts: 12,546Gear list
Like?
Re: NX20 vs XPro-1 vs M9
In reply to Brond1, Apr 23, 2012

Brond1 wrote:

Thank you both... just a burst of frustration.

Follow up re fly by wire: Nikon/Canon etc don't have fly by wire do they? Their lenses do have a stop at minimum focus and infinity plus markings... I think?

No infinity stop, but markings (that won't be right for all settings on zoom lenses). They have terrible focus feel in general. I have an easier time manually focusing some fly by wire systems than some manual AF lenses, the only thing I like about those is they stay where you leave them if you don't bump the ring.

Or are you saying top manufacturers are heading towards that. I was pretty shocked that Fuji's lenses which are all around £500 are fly by wire.

Exactly, that is where the market is going, especially for lenses with some of these newer focus motors, it is just easier to implement a lens without the mechanical coupling. Pretty much every mirrorless system uses focus-by-wire except for the Pentax K-01, but its focus performance is hampered because of this.

I think the main drive to go to fly by wire is the mechanical systems interfere with the performance and cost of contrast detect AF lenses. A motor like a voice coil motor can't drive the lens elements without power as they are just free floating. You would have to add an entire mechanical coupling to move the focus elements, but the catch would be the voice coil motor couldn't drive the mechanical couplings easily, so you would have to have some kind of clutch mechanism, and it just gets complicated and expensive.

I think the 85 and 60mm use mechanically coupled focus rings due to the types of motors in those lenses can handle the mechanical couplings fine. The probably use some sort of clutch or the motor can be driven manually as well. I don't know details of those and I am not opening mine up to find out

Eric

-- hide signature --

I never saw an ugly thing in my life: for let the form of an object
be what it may - light, shade, and perspective will always make it
beautiful. - John Constable (quote)

See my Blog at: http://www.erphotoreview.com/ (bi-weekly)
Flickr Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28177041@N03/ (updated daily)

 viking79's gear list:viking79's gear list
Sony SLT-A99 Sony Alpha 7R Sony Alpha 7 Samsung NX30 Samsung NX 30mm F2 Pancake +7 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
viking79
Forum ProPosts: 12,546Gear list
Like?
Re: NX20 vs XPro-1 vs M9
In reply to viking79, Apr 23, 2012

viking79 wrote:

I think the 85 and 60mm use mechanically coupled focus rings due to the types of motors in those lenses can handle the mechanical couplings fine. The probably use some sort of clutch or the motor can be driven manually as well. I don't know details of those and I am not opening mine up to find out

To add to this, I think (but not sure) the 85 and 60mm use something similar to Canon's Ring Type USM with full time manual (FTM). This type of focus motor works well manual or AF, but again, these are expensive lenses and not sure how well this type of motor works for video or other applications.

Eric
--
I never saw an ugly thing in my life: for let the form of an object
be what it may - light, shade, and perspective will always make it
beautiful. - John Constable (quote)

See my Blog at: http://www.erphotoreview.com/ (bi-weekly)
Flickr Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28177041@N03/ (updated daily)

 viking79's gear list:viking79's gear list
Sony SLT-A99 Sony Alpha 7R Sony Alpha 7 Samsung NX30 Samsung NX 30mm F2 Pancake +7 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
timedrun
Contributing MemberPosts: 637Gear list
Like?
Re: NX20 vs XPro-1 vs M9
In reply to Brond1, Apr 23, 2012

Brond1 wrote:

Aaaagh! I've just been mooching in Jessops and handling an XPro-1 and it doesnt quite do it for me.

I want a compact well made large sensor camera with a high quality evf, punchy manual focus assist and lenses that do not focus by bloody wire.

I have an NX10. I like the 20mm lens a lot, but autofocus cant guess what I want sharp. Novoflex plus my nikor 24mm makes camera too big. There is not Leica-M mount option.

So I went to look at the XPRO-1. It looks groovy and feels well made, but is also light and boxy. Not as dense and meaningful in the hand as the NX10. The viewfinder is better. It's lenses are fly by wire. What an own goal for camera aimed at wannabee Leicologists.

The M9. Not great in low light. Is a bit big and boxy to make it worth act of credit card insanity.

So maybe the NX20s viewfinder will be good enough, maybe they will get the promised 24mm premium out before 2015 (with proper manual focus)......

Always waiting for the perfect camera....never comes
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithernesto/

How about the NEX 7?

 timedrun's gear list:timedrun's gear list
Samsung NX11 Samsung NX 30mm F2 Pancake Samsung NX 16mm F2.4 Pancake Samsung NX 85mm F1.4 ED SSA Samsung NX 45mm F1.8
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
ZZ9
ZZ9
Regular MemberPosts: 445
Like?
leica Manual focus...
In reply to Brond1, Apr 23, 2012

i have a M8.2 and belive me its a pain Manual focus

its not a good camera if you need to come back home with results....(i.e. if you want use during a travel reportage)

too slow...actions is already gone when you push button

the same for all MF focus using adapeters...just crazy...

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Brond1
Regular MemberPosts: 322Gear list
Like?
Re: leica Manual focus...
In reply to ZZ9, Apr 23, 2012

But can't you just use f5.6 or f8 and set a rough distance by feel if in a real hurry. ?
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithernesto/

 Brond1's gear list:Brond1's gear list
Canon PowerShot S100 Fujifilm X-Pro1 Fujifilm XF 18mm F2 R Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XF 23mm F1.4 R
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
ZZ9
ZZ9
Regular MemberPosts: 445
Like?
Re: leica Manual focus...
In reply to Brond1, Apr 23, 2012

yes with a wide angle, but a 50mm has very short in focus, if you try to portrait you must focus very carefully , couse focus can bout wrong also of few centimeters
anyway a pain also with a 50mm 1.4.....if you use wide open

i think after some years of practice you can do it very fast (i think to cartier bresson....) but i think you need some years and also a very good eyes

Brond1 wrote:

But can't you just use f5.6 or f8 and set a rough distance by feel if in a real hurry. ?
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithernesto/

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Frederick Lim
Regular MemberPosts: 135
Like?
Re: NX20 vs XPro-1 vs M9
In reply to Brond1, Apr 24, 2012

Brond1 wrote:

Always waiting for the perfect camera....never comes
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithernesto/

It is because the camera manufacturer CEO and marketing people are not photographer, they concern how much money they can made (for themselves)

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Najinsky
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,597
Like?
Re: NX20 vs XPro-1 vs M9
In reply to Brond1, Apr 24, 2012

The Ricoh GXR is often overlooked because it has a low profile, but people are getting excellent results with the M mount module. Many are Leica owners and have tried the other brands, but claim the Ricoh gives the best results.

It has excellent firmware support for manual lenses, including several kinds of Focus Peaking and creation of Exif Metadata to identify lenses and exposure used for shooting.

It's a clean sensor which captures very nice renderings. Perhaps a slight weakness is it is only 12MP but this doesn't seem to bother its users.

The EVF is an external, plug-in type and is a little old compared to Sony and Panasonic, but it does it does swivel through 90 degrees and is replaceable if a new VF-3 becomes available.

-Najinsky

Brond1 wrote:

Aaaagh! I've just been mooching in Jessops and handling an XPro-1 and it doesnt quite do it for me.

I want a compact well made large sensor camera with a high quality evf, punchy manual focus assist and lenses that do not focus by bloody wire.

I have an NX10. I like the 20mm lens a lot, but autofocus cant guess what I want sharp. Novoflex plus my nikor 24mm makes camera too big. There is not Leica-M mount option.

So I went to look at the XPRO-1. It looks groovy and feels well made, but is also light and boxy. Not as dense and meaningful in the hand as the NX10. The viewfinder is better. It's lenses are fly by wire. What an own goal for camera aimed at wannabee Leicologists.

The M9. Not great in low light. Is a bit big and boxy to make it worth act of credit card insanity.

So maybe the NX20s viewfinder will be good enough, maybe they will get the promised 24mm premium out before 2015 (with proper manual focus)......

Always waiting for the perfect camera....never comes
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithernesto/

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
ggsphoto
Forum MemberPosts: 54
Like?
Re: NX20 vs XPro-1 vs M9
In reply to Brond1, Apr 27, 2012

Hi,

Just thought I'd tell you about the x-pro1 I bought. Funnily enough I went to jessops and picked up the pro1 and thought similar. I have the X10 which I really like for a compact and the x-pro1 felt a little too light.

But now I've used it for a week or two I now pick it up and it feels just right, I mean, reallly, it feels a great weight and density. I can't believe I didn;t think this before.

The focussing on the xpro1 is being criticised a fair bit at the minute. I have to say I think the focussing on the xpro1 is phenomenal. Not perfect in that low light it hunts a bit but when it locks on it is very very accurate, far more accurate than my old D300. I get virtuall 100% hit rate focus wise with the x-pro1 (ok - not 100% but far far better return that D300 + sigma 30mm f1.4 which I was forever tuning for back/front focussing issues).

And the manual focus on the pro is just a dream - again, compared to d300. Put pro1 into manual focus, hit the ael/afl button to focus (a bit of a contradiction) but from that point you hit the rotating button on the back, lcd zooms into the centre and you turn the focus ring to tune. I totally gave up manual focus on slrs, the pro1 is very usable.

Yes, its by wire, but I'm really not sure where people are comign from on this - there's no discernable lag.

I've been after fantastic IQ and great low light in a compact body with apteture/shutter dials forever and this camera does it all brilliantly.

I think we're all a little critical of all cameras these days, we seem to pick up on points as if determined to find a resason not to buy. I upgrade every 4 or 5 years and the leap is always huge.

I have a (better than ?) M9 body with better than Leica lens camera for 1/5 the cost and I take it everywhere with me - I NEVER did that with an slr.

Its not cheap, but would I swap it for a D800 and an f1.4 nikon lens - not a chance.
Just my opinion...

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Greynerd
Senior MemberPosts: 2,996Gear list
Like?
Re: NX20 vs XPro-1 vs M9
In reply to ggsphoto, Apr 27, 2012

I wonder if these retro cameras are more for people who want to be photographed rather than take photographs themeselves. It just seems absurd to build a camera emulating the limited materials avaialble and primitive material processing of a past age and ignoring practical utility.

I myself prefer a camera that is easy to hold and this is difficult to do with this rangefinder fad that is plaguing camera design at the moment.

 Greynerd's gear list:Greynerd's gear list
Olympus TG-310 Samsung EX2F Pentax X-5 Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZS30 Olympus Stylus XZ-10 +6 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Brond1
Regular MemberPosts: 322Gear list
Like?
Re: NX20 vs XPro-1 vs M9
In reply to Greynerd, Apr 27, 2012

Thank you ggsphoto!

I feel uneasy about not knowing where the lens is focussed when it is not at my eye. In other words if I see a situation I want and know I will have to snatch the shot, then having the barrel prefocussed on a distance and an medium/low aperture means I have a sporting chance.

Interested what you said about the feel growing on you.

Can you explain more how the manual focus works with the AF-L.. is it that it does a quick auto focus and then you can tweak it by twisting the lens barrel yourself?

I went into Leica Mayfair a couple of days ago and they kindly gave me a one to one session for an hour or so and I tried out M9 with 35mm summicron and summilux lenses. I left smitten but even more worried as decided I'd want the F1.4 lens rather than F2 to compensate for ISO limit. Then on internet see there is a whole focus shift issue with old (ie cheper 2nd hand) fast lenses and digital sensors that causes problems with rangefinders. And it is so so expensive.

You have convinced me to go back and look at X-Pro1 again. But the NX20 is still there.. and would be much more so if they got the f- on with the 24mm premium lens.

Re: wanted to be photographed with something! Good point, but have happily used NX10 without crushing stigma. There is an emotional/psychological issue> for me it is feeling i have something well made and devoted to function without distracting fripperies.

 Brond1's gear list:Brond1's gear list
Canon PowerShot S100 Fujifilm X-Pro1 Fujifilm XF 18mm F2 R Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XF 23mm F1.4 R
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Loring von Palleske
Contributing MemberPosts: 500
Like?
Re: NX20 vs XPro-1 vs M9
In reply to Brond1, Apr 27, 2012

I believe Canons 85 ƒ1.2 is focus by wire. I will have to double check...

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
ggsphoto
Forum MemberPosts: 54
Like?
Re: NX20 vs XPro-1 vs M9
In reply to Brond1, Apr 28, 2012

Hi Brond1 -

On the focussing - you got it from my brief explanation. I manually focus in 2 ways really..

1) I switch to manual focus and use the ae-l/af-l button which will trigger a focus in the centre square (not changeable, not important). I can then hit the shutter button and grab the shot. I'm sure a lot of people do this, I kind of did this on the D300 in a round-about way. I use this in slightly better light when focus is guaranteed.

2) as above in lower light and then as you say, grabbing the focus ring and tuning. But (just in case people didn't know it did this) before grabbing the fouucs ring I press the rotary dial on the back which then zooms in to show you the central sector of what you're trying to frame. I'd be tracking eyes/face and may then just tweak the focus ring to get better low light

ok - caveats - I don't do 2) that much, but when I do, it works well. focussing by wire seems really fine to me, and I tend to stop using aspects of cameras that are painful to use. The zoomed in sector is very zoomed in so if your subject is moving, forget it.

I saw some guy walking down old bond street with an M9 a month ago and couldn't help but think how much he stuck out. I didn't like the look. I really like the fact that the pro1 kind of blends into the background....and would you believe....when I work my smarter work trousers, I can get it in my pocket with the 35mm on it. I kid you not - its large of course, but very do-able. No-one is as stupid as me though !

I bet the nx20 is great. Yes, I mean it, great. I see people with tiny compacts and they produce very good pictures. My X10 is very very good....when I first got it I was blown away when I saw the shots on the lcd display, I really thought I'd replaced my d300....but then I saw them on a hi def monitor and realised they weren't quite so good. Just not professional - some were, very very happy. I just wanted absolutely b rilliant IQ. My d300 with sigma 30mm f1.4 as mentioned has served me so well for the last 4 years but compared to the pro1 I'd say D300 = 7/10 pro1=9.5/10

Read Ken rockwell's review - he often goes a bit over the top, and is historically a leica lover - and to see him say the pro1 is better than M9 ( low light its a no-brainer) is pretty amazing. Plus, the 35mm lens is a dream - he says he things its better than the sumicrom lenses with the speed of the sumiluxes (the 1.4 range).

I've been taking pictures since the mid-70's and I am in heaven now, thank you Fuji. I wish I got paid for this !

Operationally the camera is very good - the only thing I wish it had was a dedicated iso button, I mean a dial like the shutter speed and apture ring. Also, if you set the shutter manually and the aperture so in manual exposure mode, and want leave the iso in auto mode, such that you can adjust exposure with the exposure dial - it does't work. i.e. it won't adjust iso to correspond to you're -0.7 exposure dial setting, the shot is taken as if it was flat zero. I hope for a firmware update on this one, but these are minor points really.

On saturation and color, its really good. Ken criticises the velvia setting for looking a little artificial - maybe...but I use this with colour cranked up and contrast and the return is huge.

go to flickr and look up my id steveabcdefghi and I think there are some photos public from the pro1. I hope you like them....

Snob me ? I think so now - I pick up my nikon and it seems like an elephant compared to my nice little pro1. I know you saw the M9 and loved it - I bet I would too....but its much less of a camera than this pro1 and 1/5 the cost. When the M10 comes out, I'm sure they'll make a good job of it ( I bet low light is much better) but I don;t think it will be as usable as the pro.

OK - hope this helps.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
ggsphoto
Forum MemberPosts: 54
Like?
Re: NX20 vs XPro-1 vs M9
In reply to ggsphoto, Apr 28, 2012

I forgot to mention - I was trying to see if I could take a 1.4 shot of people walking towards me using any of the auto focus modes on the pro1 and I couldn't. And have I ever achieved this ? no. Never.

As was already mentioned, you just have to stop it down a bit, F3 or F4 , focus on a zone, fix the focus and then shoot as people walk into the zone....and this works fine.

Cheers.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Brond1
Regular MemberPosts: 322Gear list
Like?
Re: NX20 vs XPro-1 vs M9
In reply to ggsphoto, Apr 28, 2012

Thank you for that and link to your flickr. Lovely rich deep colours in your photographs.. and assume they jpeg origin rather than raw?

Read a review that says camera takes five seconds from power on to first shot. Is that really so?

 Brond1's gear list:Brond1's gear list
Canon PowerShot S100 Fujifilm X-Pro1 Fujifilm XF 18mm F2 R Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XF 23mm F1.4 R
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
ggsphoto
Forum MemberPosts: 54
Like?
Re: NX20 vs XPro-1 vs M9
In reply to Brond1, Apr 28, 2012

virtually all the shots are straight out of camera except for cropping. jpg.
No need or want of raw, the quality is superb.

There was some kind of bug with the sd cards which caused the camera to take 5 to 10 seconds to start up - it happened if you put the sd card into a mac to upload pics then returned the sd cards to the camera. I think the mac possibly puts some thumbnails on there to the like. Either way, I just reformatted the card and it fixed the problem. better, the new firmware fixes the problem anyway, even better, I just hook the camera up via usb cable.

No - the camera is very fast from power on to 1st shot, I don't even have the "fast startup" option set. Its not instant, but sub-second to first shot.

I've been looking through my old d300 shots and the difference in focussing is very evident. the 300 with such a narrow dof on the 1.4 sigma was hard to nail - always as I said tuning back/front focussing settings in the camera. I won't go back to phase detection any more, the results from the contrast detection are just too good I think...

I feel like I'm selling the camera to everyone now ! I guess I am....

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads