Is the SD1m the "poor mans" Nikon D800

Started Apr 22, 2012 | Discussions
steven_k
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Is the SD1m the "poor mans" Nikon D800
Apr 22, 2012

Yes, I have read the very lengthy thread on the comparison of both camera, and I realize the Nikon in so many ways is the better camera and investment, the IQ is for sure right up there, but like with everything else in the world today, you get what you pay for.

The way I see it a Sigma SD1M kit, with 4 sigma macro primes, 50, 70, 105, and 150 plus the 8-16 would cost about almost half of what a comprable D800E body, zeiss 50mm and 100mm Macro lenses, a 25mm zeiss and maybe a Nikon 17-35/4 zoom.

If I were a professional, selling my work, making a living, etc. I would for sure go Nikon, though I am not, I would like to think I shoot like a pro yet I don't sell my work, I do my own prints on my HP Z3200 PS 24" printer so 20x30 is my biggest size unless I do some panos which I use my MF Technical view camera with my 33mp MF Leaf Back, yes a very large investment but the IQ is amazing.

I want to think that if I shoot the SD1m like I do my meduim format stuff, tripod, MLU,

etc. that the SD1m when printed, no one would no the difference whether it was taken with a D800E or Sigma, I maybe totally wrong but I doubt we will ever see a true comparison printed up at 20x30 with the same image taken with both systems.
Im not talking about a DPR stuido shoot comparison.

Am I crazy??????

Steven

Nikon D800 Nikon D800E Sigma SD1
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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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Re: Is the SD1m the "poor mans" Nikon D800
In reply to steven_k, Apr 22, 2012

I don't think you are crazy at all, especially not at 20x30.

At that size you wouldn't even need all primes, the 24-70 or the 18-50 would probably be generally sharp enough even out to the edges.

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solarsky
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Re: Is the SD1m the "poor mans" Nikon D800
In reply to steven_k, Apr 23, 2012

The newly presented Nikon D3200 is the "poor man's" D800 The Sigma SD1 is something totally different: An artists instrument, not a "poor man's" hammer

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carlos roncatti
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Re: Is the SD1m the "poor mans" Nikon D800
In reply to steven_k, Apr 23, 2012

steven_k wrote:

Am I crazy??????

Well , even being half, it would cost a LOT (more than 5000usd) , so IMO, its not a poor mans camera at all..anything past 500usd cant be considered a "poor mans camera". And i do think you will get great results with the SD1 and the lenses mentioned (except the 8-16mm)...if you do not need great DR...you will be more than pleased..the resolution is awesome.

Steven

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Aku Ankka
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SD1 is a one trick pony
In reply to steven_k, Apr 23, 2012

steven_k wrote:

I want to think that if I shoot the SD1m like I do my meduim format stuff, tripod, MLU,

etc. that the SD1m when printed, no one would no the difference whether it was taken with a D800E or Sigma, I maybe totally wrong but I doubt we will ever see a true comparison printed up at 20x30 with the same image taken with both systems.
Im not talking about a DPR stuido shoot comparison.

Am I crazy??????

No, but slightly uninformed. The new Sigma SD1 is a one trick pony: it has very decent resolution, albeit with aliasing, but otherwise it is a significantly sub-par imager, especially considering the price.

Shooting 20 inch images you'll notice significant differences compared to your Leaf - the tonality of the medium format back, even an old one like that, is significantly superior to the Sigma, it can go deeper into the shadows, and the colors are just about as accurate as anything else out there has - much better than Foveon can ever do with the color separation method it uses. Resolution is the only thing the Sigma does not lose badly - it's close enough to not be noticeable unless one really peeps deeply.

And when it comes to the Nikon D800(E), it is significantly better than your Leaf (in anything but resolution which is similar), especially when not shot under ideal conditions.

If shooting in low light, or if you have to fit a large dynamic range sene into the print by pushing the shadows, you'll also notice issues due to the limited dynamic range of the Foveon sensor and the noisyness of it. Anything in the shoot that goes beyond the ideal performance zone of the camera punishes the Sigma hard.

Unfortunately for Sigma, if one can afford to buy SD1, one should not buy it, but just about anything from any competing brand in the same price range (apart from Leica which has "not too good" digital cameras to put it politely) - at worst you may lose little bit of resolution (16-18 Mp APS-C or FF, or win some in case of D800), but also get far superior DR, much lower noise, far more accurate colors, far better camera functionality and ergonomics and far more lenses to choose from.

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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You are wrong about DR
In reply to Aku Ankka, Apr 23, 2012

Aku Ankka wrote:

Shooting 20 inch images you'll notice significant differences compared to your Leaf - the tonality of the medium format back, even an old one like that, is significantly superior to the Sigma, it can go deeper into the shadows, and the colors are just about as accurate as anything else out there has - much better than Foveon can ever do with the color separation method it uses. Resolution is the only thing the Sigma does not lose badly - it's close enough to not be noticeable unless one really peeps deeply.

That is very unlikely to be the case, the Foveon sensor should handle tonality better than and older Leaf.

And when it comes to the Nikon D800(E), it is significantly better than your Leaf (in anything but resolution which is similar), especially when not shot under ideal conditions.

Just as the SD-1 would be...

If shooting in low light, or if you have to fit a large dynamic range sene into the print by pushing the shadows, you'll also notice issues due to the limited dynamic range of the Foveon sensor and the noisyness of it. Anything in the shoot that goes beyond the ideal performance zone of the camera punishes the Sigma hard.

Except that the Foveon chips have always has quite a lot of DR, probably better than that older leaf.

Unfortunately for Sigma, if one can afford to buy SD1

Yes, we all know how you feel about a camera you know nothing about.

Perhaps you should let informed people make recommendations instead.

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Gary Dean Mercer Clark
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Re: SD1 is a one trick pony
In reply to Aku Ankka, Apr 23, 2012

I shot with the SD1M for thirty days and liked it so much I ordered one for my business and personal use. I know of other professional photographers who have also bought SD1Ms as well. Its a great camera--not a one trick pony. Why are you telling people that they shouldn't buy the SD1M? Because you think it isn't a good buy?

I have confidence that amateurs and professional photographers are smart enough to purchase a camera that meets their needs.

Here are some links to some test images I shot with the SD1. The first were some orchids I shot in the studio for a fun little comparison.

http://www.pbase.com/garydmercer/orchid_challenge

The second are some general images I shot with the SD1M and some night images.

http://www.pbase.com/garydmercer/sigma_sd1_test_samples

Note: The images were shot with a Sigma 50mm macro f2.8 ( old lens from 2004) and a borrowed 17-70mm from Sigma USA.

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Aku Ankka
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Re: You are wrong about DR
In reply to Kendall Helmstetter Gelner, Apr 23, 2012

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

Aku Ankka wrote:

Shooting 20 inch images you'll notice significant differences compared to your Leaf - the tonality of the medium format back, even an old one like that, is significantly superior to the Sigma, it can go deeper into the shadows, and the colors are just about as accurate as anything else out there has - much better than Foveon can ever do with the color separation method it uses. Resolution is the only thing the Sigma does not lose badly - it's close enough to not be noticeable unless one really peeps deeply.

That is very unlikely to be the case, the Foveon sensor should handle tonality better than and older Leaf.

No as that is tied to FWC and read noise and Foveon loses badly on both. Just check how decet the 2006 Leaf is at DxO...

And when it comes to the Nikon D800(E), it is significantly better than your Leaf (in anything but resolution which is similar), especially when not shot under ideal conditions.

Just as the SD-1 would be...

If shooting in low light, or if you have to fit a large dynamic range sene into the print by pushing the shadows, you'll also notice issues due to the limited dynamic range of the Foveon sensor and the noisyness of it. Anything in the shoot that goes beyond the ideal performance zone of the camera punishes the Sigma hard.

Except that the Foveon chips have always has quite a lot of DR, probably better than that older leaf.

This is nonsense. Foveon has extremely high read noise - every pixel has in the ballpark of 100 (a hundred) electron read noise (for the triple phododiode), while modern competition has about 3 electron read noise per pixel. The Leaf CCD has probably about 30 electron read noise, but much larger full well capacity due to the massive pixels.

If Foveon had good dynamic range, then two things were true: pushed shadows were competetively clean without smoothing and high ISO performance were good. Neither is true.

Please tell why Foveon high ISO is very bad by contemporary standards if it has good DR?

Unfortunately for Sigma, if one can afford to buy SD1

Yes, we all know how you feel about a camera you know nothing about.

Perhaps you should let informed people make recommendations instead.

Like fanboys who either don't know what dynamic range is, what limits it and how, or just blatantly lies to make his gear acquisition feel right.

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larryj
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Re: SD1 is a one trick pony
In reply to Aku Ankka, Apr 23, 2012

I used a SD1 for about 3 week and was impressed enough to order one. My question to you is have you shot the camera and made comparisons. Here are a couple of shots for you to look at:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7045/6893830327_75dd1c44ee_o.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7217/7047682427_37bf0a2730_o.jpg
Let me know what you think of those!
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Aku Ankka
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Re: SD1 is a one trick pony
In reply to Gary Dean Mercer Clark, Apr 23, 2012

gary mercer wrote:

I shot with the SD1M for thirty days and liked it so much I ordered one for my business and personal use.

Happy you like it. I do think you would have enjoyen Nikon D800 even more though.

I know of other professional photographers who have also bought SD1Ms as well. Its a great camera--not a one trick pony.

Okay - if it is not a one trick pony, what else is competetive at than resolution?

It has:

  1. Very high read noise (correlated double sampling not possible with the foveon structure)

  2. Low Dynamic range

  3. Low quantum efficiency

  4. Worst color accuracy in the industry

  5. Very weak color separation

  6. Difficult to process files

  7. Camera is slow

  8. Limited lens lineup compared to other SLRs

  9. Video?

  10. Live view?

  11. AF is not competitve

  12. For pros a lot less support than CaNikon offers

  13. Less software support

What else it is good at, other than resolution?

Why are you telling people that they shouldn't buy the SD1M? Because you think it isn't a good buy?

Yes. I don't think it is a good buy. At 1.000 euros/dollars maybe yes. Isn't it good that a potential camera buyer can hear other things that just fanatical fanboy praise (no, not talking about you, but there are several fanatics in the sigma forum to whom sigma is a religion).

Nothing against Sigma - I've had some of it's lenses and generally was happy or even very happy with them, tough had to swap a couple quality uncontrolled copies

I have confidence that amateurs and professional photographers are smart enough to purchase a camera that meets their needs.

Not really. Most amateurs don't really know much about cameras and rely on often badly done reviews and advertisements. Pros have better knowledge and they tend to buy tool they need - I just can't figure out a single field where a pro would want to buy SD1 over anyting else in it's price range, or a 24Mp APS-C if this pro were to use the actual capabilities of the cameras and his needs as the reason for picking the camera. Maybe if one has a stock of Sigma mount lenses, but other than that, no, I don't see a point in buying Sigma.

Here are some links to some test images I shot with the SD1. The first were some orchids I shot in the studio for a fun little comparison.

I'm not sure why post those in this thread. You're a better photographer than I am, and better at PP as well, I am sure.

And I'm still happy you're happy with your buy.

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Aku Ankka
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Re: SD1 is a one trick pony
In reply to larryj, Apr 23, 2012

larryj wrote:

I used a SD1 for about 3 week and was impressed enough to order one. My question to you is have you shot the camera and made comparisons. Here are a couple of shots for you to look at:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7045/6893830327_75dd1c44ee_o.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7217/7047682427_37bf0a2730_o.jpg
Let me know what you think of those!

Sure Larry, these two photos, especially the Giraffe, emphasize the one strong point of the camera. Strong, but not exceptional point - I fully agree that SD1 has very nice resolution, and personally I don't mind slight aliasiing as long as it's not in mad made objects (straight lines).

It is a one trick pony - it does that trick well, but at anything else it is at best very average, at worst quite horrible.

I emphasize that I am happy, if you are happy with the camera. Always great if one has found a camera one likes and which serves one well.

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SandyF
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Aku: SD1 is a one trick pony
In reply to Aku Ankka, Apr 23, 2012

You imply, if not directly state above, that you have never used the camera. But you're disputing with people who actually have used the camera... in fact, used loaners, then decided to buy the camera. Your posts thus seem strange to me.

FWIW, I haven't used the camera, but I've seen the 30x48inch prints from the SD1. It may be a 'one trick pony' from your point of view, but it's a fine pony for landscapers and nature photographers who understand their tools... strengths and limitations.

Best regards, Sandy
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steven_k
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Re: Aku: SD1 is a one trick pony
In reply to SandyF, Apr 23, 2012

Sorry,
I did not mean to create such a debate.
Since not being a professional photographer,

I decide with my wallet and my over 30 year photography and fine art printing skill set.

Am I looking to replace my Sinar arTec w/h a Leap Aptus II 7 AFI 33mp back which I shoot with 3 lenses, a 35mm, 72mm, and 135mm, NO WAY..

I was just looking for something that I can take out on longer hikes and get to places I could net get to with my arTec.

Again I don't need to be convinced on whether the D800E is a better camera in the hands of someone who knows how to shoot it. I know it is and it's a better investment with 1000% better resale value. but......

At the end of the day as I mentioned in my original post the D800E outfitted with top notch glass is at least 2 to 3x the cost of the sigma. There is no getting around this.

As I mentioned before I will probably order the SD1m, 4 lens from Sigma USA direct, and if it's as bad as "some say" it is I will return it, save up and purchase a D800E, simple as that.

Any questions???

Steven

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SandyF
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link: travelling prints thread
In reply to steven_k, Apr 23, 2012

Steven, if you're seriously considering the SD1, you should get on the travelling prints mailing list to receive and study them in person (assuming you're in the US... ?) There is also a set of prints I believe circulating in Europe.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=41239010

added: I see from your profile you're in Colorado.

Best regards, Sandy
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Gary Dean Mercer Clark
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Re: Aku: SD1 is a one trick pony
In reply to steven_k, Apr 23, 2012

I buy my Sigma lenses from Amazon.com. They have a very good return policy if a lens is defective, off=centered or has any other problem. I bought a defective Canon lens and returned it and Amazon.com even paid for the return shipping. My SD1M is coming from Sigma hopefully soon.

steven_k wrote:

Sorry,
I did not mean to create such a debate.
Since not being a professional photographer,

I decide with my wallet and my over 30 year photography and fine art printing skill set.

Am I looking to replace my Sinar arTec w/h a Leap Aptus II 7 AFI 33mp back which I shoot with 3 lenses, a 35mm, 72mm, and 135mm, NO WAY..

I was just looking for something that I can take out on longer hikes and get to places I could net get to with my arTec.

Again I don't need to be convinced on whether the D800E is a better camera in the hands of someone who knows how to shoot it. I know it is and it's a better investment with 1000% better resale value. but......

At the end of the day as I mentioned in my original post the D800E outfitted with top notch glass is at least 2 to 3x the cost of the sigma. There is no getting around this.

As I mentioned before I will probably order the SD1m, 4 lens from Sigma USA direct, and if it's as bad as "some say" it is I will return it, save up and purchase a D800E, simple as that.

Any questions???

Steven

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steven_k
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Re: Aku: SD1 is a one trick pony
In reply to Gary Dean Mercer Clark, Apr 23, 2012

Gary,

Looking at the Sigma USA website looks like they have a very good return policy also.

I assumed that most of the lenses listed on amazon are not actually sold by them but by a third party dealer which to me is not good.
If the lenses come from amazon well then thats another story.
When you ordered your SD1m from Sigma, what was there ETA on the body?
Do they have them in stock?

Steven

gary mercer wrote:

I buy my Sigma lenses from Amazon.com. They have a very good return policy if a lens is defective, off=centered or has any other problem. I bought a defective Canon lens and returned it and Amazon.com even paid for the return shipping. My SD1M is coming from Sigma hopefully soon.

steven_k wrote:

Sorry,
I did not mean to create such a debate.
Since not being a professional photographer,

I decide with my wallet and my over 30 year photography and fine art printing skill set.

Am I looking to replace my Sinar arTec w/h a Leap Aptus II 7 AFI 33mp back which I shoot with 3 lenses, a 35mm, 72mm, and 135mm, NO WAY..

I was just looking for something that I can take out on longer hikes and get to places I could net get to with my arTec.

Again I don't need to be convinced on whether the D800E is a better camera in the hands of someone who knows how to shoot it. I know it is and it's a better investment with 1000% better resale value. but......

At the end of the day as I mentioned in my original post the D800E outfitted with top notch glass is at least 2 to 3x the cost of the sigma. There is no getting around this.

As I mentioned before I will probably order the SD1m, 4 lens from Sigma USA direct, and if it's as bad as "some say" it is I will return it, save up and purchase a D800E, simple as that.

Any questions???

Steven

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steven_k
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Re: link: travelling prints thread
In reply to SandyF, Apr 23, 2012

Sandy,
I am on the print list.... But have not received them yet, maybe a while

Thanks
Steven

SandyF wrote:

Steven, if you're seriously considering the SD1, you should get on the travelling prints mailing list to receive and study them in person (assuming you're in the US... ?) There is also a set of prints I believe circulating in Europe.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=41239010

added: I see from your profile you're in Colorado.

Best regards, Sandy
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman (archival)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann (current)

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PrebenR
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Re: SD1 is a one trick pony
In reply to Aku Ankka, Apr 23, 2012

Aku Ankka wrote:

  1. Worst color accuracy in the industry

From a technical stand point your data is probably right, but photography is something other than numbers. As for colour accuracy. Yes it may be somewhat different from the real subject, but for many of us this is more pleasing. I'm not referring to green or yellow casts, that one can fix in post, but how the colours combined perhaps with resolution/micro contrast comes out in the end. That is the reason people having f.ex D700/D800 still reach for the SD1 to use that as well. As for Bayern sensor cameras, their colours are also by approximation. And especially violet is a soft spot.

I have an D300 and as a tool it is so much better than the SD cameras, but I still miss the little extra in the photos I get with the SD or DPs. So I'm using both systems depending of if I want fast AF or Foveon look/clarity.

Anyhow, the best way to upgrade ones photos is to upgrade the photographer... No point how high on the DxO scale something scores, if the one handling the camera do not know to take photos.

PS: Funny that DxOMark still has not cracked how to test the SD1

PPS: Fun to read the comments about the 5DMkIII scores vs D800
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1chaz
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Re: Is the SD1m the "poor mans" Nikon D800
In reply to steven_k, Apr 23, 2012

Personally I would like both 1 sd1 and 1 d800 or d800e with 14-24 and 24-124 still trying to figure out sigma glass for sd1.

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Gary Dean Mercer Clark
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Re: Aku: SD1 is a one trick pony
In reply to steven_k, Apr 24, 2012

steven_k wrote:

Gary,

Looking at the Sigma USA website looks like they have a very good return policy also.

I assumed that most of the lenses listed on amazon are not actually sold by them but by a third party dealer which to me is not good.

Lenses directly from Amazon.com are what I buy. I don't buy via third parties like Adorama etc though Amazon.com unless it is something that Amazon.com doesn't carry itself. Been pretty lucky so far with my purchases. Only the one bad lens from Canon and that was corrected.

If the lenses come from amazon well then thats another story.

Yes. Directly from Amazon is the best way using Amazon.com

When you ordered your SD1m from Sigma, what was there ETA on the body?
Do they have them in stock?

The SD1Ms were out of stock at Sigma USA. They are expecting a shipment this week so I'm sure it will be next week before I get it if they get a shipment in.

Steven

gary mercer wrote:

I buy my Sigma lenses from Amazon.com. They have a very good return policy if a lens is defective, off=centered or has any other problem. I bought a defective Canon lens and returned it and Amazon.com even paid for the return shipping. My SD1M is coming from Sigma hopefully soon.

steven_k wrote:

Sorry,
I did not mean to create such a debate.
Since not being a professional photographer,

I decide with my wallet and my over 30 year photography and fine art printing skill set.

Am I looking to replace my Sinar arTec w/h a Leap Aptus II 7 AFI 33mp back which I shoot with 3 lenses, a 35mm, 72mm, and 135mm, NO WAY..

I was just looking for something that I can take out on longer hikes and get to places I could net get to with my arTec.

Again I don't need to be convinced on whether the D800E is a better camera in the hands of someone who knows how to shoot it. I know it is and it's a better investment with 1000% better resale value. but......

At the end of the day as I mentioned in my original post the D800E outfitted with top notch glass is at least 2 to 3x the cost of the sigma. There is no getting around this.

As I mentioned before I will probably order the SD1m, 4 lens from Sigma USA direct, and if it's as bad as "some say" it is I will return it, save up and purchase a D800E, simple as that.

Any questions???

Steven

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