T/S lenses

Started Apr 21, 2012 | Discussions
1943Mike
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T/S lenses
Apr 21, 2012

Does anyone think that the µ43 consortium will eventually produce some tilt and shift lenses?

I am contemplating buying mostly µ43 equipment in the future (I'll probably keep my Canon DSLR system for as long as it is superior in DR - which may not be too much longer) but I'd like to think that fast, long primes, tilt and shift, and more macro lenses will eventually add to the attractiveness of this system.

I'm just looking for kindred souls who are enamored of the small, lightweight system that µ43 represents and harbor the same hopes for its growth and maturity.
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Alan OB
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Re: T/S lenses
In reply to 1943Mike, Apr 21, 2012

It doesn't have to. You have a bunch of tilt adapters for many main lenses, from Nikon, Canon to M42. Adapters start from 50€ and up, lenses from 15€.

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FW Scharpf
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Re: T/S lenses
In reply to Alan OB, Apr 21, 2012

Alan OB wrote:

It doesn't have to. You have a bunch of tilt adapters for many main lenses, from Nikon, Canon to M42. Adapters start from 50€ and up, lenses from 15€.

Yes, but that does not give you the wide angle effects of the Canon 17 and 24 mm TS-Es

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BigBarney
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How long was it?
In reply to 1943Mike, Apr 21, 2012

1943Mike wrote:

Does anyone think that the µ43 consortium will eventually produce some tilt and shift lenses?

I am contemplating buying mostly µ43 equipment in the future (I'll probably keep my Canon DSLR system for as long as it is superior in DR - which may not be too much longer) but I'd like to think that fast, long primes, tilt and shift, and more macro lenses will eventually add to the attractiveness of this system.

I'm just looking for kindred souls who are enamored of the small, lightweight system that µ43 represents and harbor the same hopes for its growth and maturity.

How long was it before Canon introduced Tilt and Shift lenses for their film SLR cameras?

I do not know the answer to that question but I will gamble that it was a lot longer than the period of just over 3 years that m43 systems have been in existence.

We are starting to see that third party lens producers such as Sigma are recognising the commercial success of m43 and are producing lenses alongside Olympus and Panasonic. Olympus has already stated that they will produce a macro lens for m43 with a longer focal length than the existing Panasonic Leica 45mm f2.8.

Going back to your original question I suspect that the order of production of the three types of lens you have identified will be:

  • additional macro lenses.

  • longer fast prime telephoto lenses.

  • T/S lenses.

The timescale is anyone's guess.

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1943Mike
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Re: T/S lenses
In reply to FW Scharpf, Apr 22, 2012

Well, it looks like it took Canon 14 years to develop a tilt and shift lens (which I bought in the 1980's and owned for a few years) for its SLR systems. The system which Canon made the T/S for was the one for the old FD mount.

Looks like I may have a bit of a wait for something comparable.

http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/history/canon_story/1955_1969/1955_1969.html

http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/canon/fdresources/fdlenses/35mmTS/35mmts.htm
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Chez Wimpy
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Re: T/S lenses
In reply to FW Scharpf, Apr 23, 2012

FW Scharpf wrote:

Yes, but that does not give you the wide angle effects of the Canon 17 and 24 mm TS-Es

With a Nikon-mount Sigma 8-16... it certainly can.

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Anders W
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Re: T/S lenses
In reply to 1943Mike, Apr 23, 2012

1943Mike wrote:

Does anyone think that the µ43 consortium will eventually produce some tilt and shift lenses?

Hard to say what will eventually happen. But I'd be surprised if Pany or Oly would bring out something like that in the near future. Possibly a producer like Samyang.

In addition to the suggestion of using a tilt/shift adapter combined with lenses for other systems, I'd like to add the following:

For tilt, you can use bellows. Shift is far less needed in the digital age than it was earlier because you can easily correct perspective distortion in PP. You can also shoot with a sharp wide lens like the 7-14 and then crop.

Here's an example of how to avoid keystoning by means of the latter method. Both images were shot with my G1 at ISO 100 from exactly the same location. For the first, I used the 14-45 at 14. For the second I used the 7-14 at 7 (in portrait mode, just like the first shot) and then cut away the bottom half.

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T3
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not likely
In reply to 1943Mike, Apr 23, 2012

If you're talking about a T/S lens specifically for m4/3, I'd say that's highly unlikely. There's just not enough of a market for T/S lenses in the m4/3 world. Remember that a T/S lens is very much a professional's lens, and a niche one at that. How many pros use m4/3? And of that number of pros, how many would need T/S? And of that number of pros, are they using m4/3 exclusively ? Or are they also using the Canon or Nikon system? If they are also using a Canon or Nikon system, they are pretty unlikely to buy a T/S lens for their m4/3 camera. They'll buy it for their Canon or Nikon system.

I say this because-- like you-- I'm a Canon user, and I have the Canon 24mm TS-E and 45mm TS-E. I've had them since the film days.

Now I also use m4/3, but I'm still keeping my Canon gear. If I didn't have my Canon T/S lenses and I needed T/S lenses, I would not buy T/S lenses for my m4/3 camera nor would I sit around hoping that someone would make T/S lenses specifically for m4/3. I'd just buy T/S lenses for my Canon gear. Heck, even if I didn't currently own any Canon gear, and I needed a T/S lens, I would probably just buy Canon T/S lenses and an inexpensive Rebel DSLR to use them on! After all, that's all you really need with a T/S lens. No need for fast auto focus because T/S lenses are manual focus. No need for high frame rate. And you just use Live View on the rear LCD to get 100% frame coverage for composition. Stick it all on a tripod, and you're good to go. Plus, you have the option of four existing Canon T/S lenses (17mm, 24mm, 45mm, and 90mm). And if I wanted FF for full wide angle, I'd probably just buy a used Canon 5D.

Or just rent what you need when you need it. After all, how often are you going to use a T/S lens? Borrowlenses.com have Canon T/S lenses for ~$100 for a 1 week rental.

If any manufacturer ever did produce a T/S lens for m4/3, I wouldn't expect it to happen for many years. Admittedly, they would probably look very cool because they would be very compact. But I just don't see it happening.

1943Mike wrote:

Does anyone think that the µ43 consortium will eventually produce some tilt and shift lenses?

I am contemplating buying mostly µ43 equipment in the future (I'll probably keep my Canon DSLR system for as long as it is superior in DR - which may not be too much longer) but I'd like to think that fast, long primes, tilt and shift, and more macro lenses will eventually add to the attractiveness of this system.

I'm just looking for kindred souls who are enamored of the small, lightweight system that µ43 represents and harbor the same hopes for its growth and maturity.
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1943Mike

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Chez Wimpy
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Re: not likely
In reply to T3, Apr 23, 2012

T3 wrote:

Admittedly, they would probably look very cool because they would be very compact.

Like a 8x10 camera that you have to adjust with tweezers... even on 135, those TSE lenses have some small knobs and cramped controls, and run into problems on cameras with built in flash (limits on tilt-shift combinations, and "finger-friendly" accessory knobs). Getting those down to m43 sizes would be interesting, but could lead to some unforeseen ergonomic nightmares, especially since form factor of the camera bodies has been all over the place (grips, pop-up flash extension, mount extension from the body).

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rrr_hhh
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Re: T/S lenses
In reply to 1943Mike, Apr 23, 2012

1943Mike wrote:

Does anyone think that the µ43 consortium will eventually produce some tilt and shift lenses?

I am contemplating buying mostly µ43 equipment in the future (I'll probably keep my Canon DSLR system for as long as it is superior in DR - which may not be too much longer) but I'd like to think that fast, long primes, tilt and shift, and more macro lenses will eventually add to the attractiveness of this system.

I'm just looking for kindred souls who are enamored of the small, lightweight system that µ43 represents and harbor the same hopes for its growth and maturity.

The question was asked to Terada in February when the E-M5 was launched. You can see that interview here :
http://www.43rumors.com/mr-terada-olympus-answers-your-43rumors-questions/

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=it&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=da&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nexthardware.com%2Feventi%2Feventi%2F16%2Folympus-hot-shot-hunt-amsterdam.htm&act=url

There is a script of that interview, but I wasn't able to find it.

Terada scoffed at the question showing great surprise, then said diplomatically they were going to see what the users want. I won't expect anything from them soon.

Concerning adapters, to my knowledge, there are no adapters allowing shift as of now, they only allow tilt. Also given the 2x crop factor, it s hard to find any lenses allowing a 24mm equivalence in FF.

Personnally I'd very much like a wide shift lens for architecture : it would be way lighter than my Canon 5D plus 24TSE plus 90TSE plus bigger tripod and heavy tripod head to support that combo.

There are shift adapters for Nex and Nikon lenses or M lenses and with the 1.5 crop factor it may be a better combo for shift lenses. Unless you hit in the magenta cast and soft corners problems which many wide lenses have on Nex systems.

At four third rumors, there was talk concerning a possible Samyiang shift lens for mft. It is not impossible that one may come out in a not to distant future, but t is not certain either. Samyang seems to penalize in offering very wide angle lenses and fisheye.

Mft format weakness as of now is corner sharpness on wide angles. I think it is probably inherent to the small flange distance and this probably doesn't bode so well with any wide shift lens. Still I'd be interested. Given the always weaker corners, redressing perspective in post spoils the corners even more.

Using a very wide angle and cropping the bottom, as Anders suggest is probably the best solution, but then, you loose quite a number of data.

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Chez Wimpy
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Re: T/S lenses
In reply to rrr_hhh, Apr 23, 2012

rrr_hhh wrote:

Concerning adapters, to my knowledge, there are no adapters allowing shift as of now, they only allow tilt.

There have been Fotodiox adapters for some time now:
http://www.amazon.com/Fotodiox-Adapter-Thirds-Olympus-Panasonic/dp/B003DRAGUG

(by the looks of the reviews there, the Nikon has a flange distance problem however).

Kipon shift,
http://www.amazon.com/Kipon-Nikon-Shift-Mount-Adapter/dp/B0062K76M2

a review of EF via Fotodiox
http://colingriffiths.blogspot.jp/2010/04/panasonic-gf1-fotodiox-eos-shift.html

ect

Getting both tilt and shift however, not to my knowledge.

Also given the 2x crop factor, it s hard to find any lenses allowing a 24mm equivalence in FF.

You almost have to go for the 8-16, 10-20ish, 11-16, or 12-24 lenses. Only the 12-24 FF lenses will have a full 43mm+ image circle, if you want to do more extreme (10mm-ish) shifts.

Unless you hit in the magenta cast and soft corners problems which many wide lenses have on Nex systems.

Actually a problem with Canon and their TSE lenses in fact... certainly visible on many of my 90TSE + 5D2 stitches.

Mft format weakness as of now is corner sharpness on wide angles.

I think that is mostly related to the software correction inherent in all of the native WA options. There is also corner color cast-ing on my G1 when I push exposures (visible this winter with snowscapes, going magenta near the edges with my 14-45 on 14mm... I had to desaturate there to get around it).

I think it is probably inherent to the small flange distance and this probably doesn't bode so well with any wide shift lens. Still I'd be interested.

Any larger format lens being shifted on m43 will have the same flange distance as it would on the original format... whether m43 micro-lenses in the corners are up to the task (as compared with something as advanced as Ricoh's m-mount module) remains to be seen.

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tt321
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Re: T/S lenses
In reply to Anders W, Apr 23, 2012

Tilt is also available from stuff like lensbaby.

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rrr_hhh
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Re: T/S lenses
In reply to Chez Wimpy, Apr 23, 2012

Many thanks fr a lot of precious info. I was aware of the shift adapters made for the Nex, but not of those. However I've read some bad things recently about the Fotodiox adapters and prefer the Kipon adapters. I'd love to have one for M lenses, since Voigtländer makes smaller wide lenses. Those are quite expensive however and you are never sure about hw the corners will look.. Hence my wish for a native shift lens.

Still those info look promising. I hope we will soon have something for architecture !

Chez Wimpy wrote:

rrr_hhh wrote:

Concerning adapters, to my knowledge, there are no adapters allowing shift as of now, they only allow tilt.

There have been Fotodiox adapters for some time now:
http://www.amazon.com/Fotodiox-Adapter-Thirds-Olympus-Panasonic/dp/B003DRAGUG

(by the looks of the reviews there, the Nikon has a flange distance problem however).

Kipon shift,
http://www.amazon.com/Kipon-Nikon-Shift-Mount-Adapter/dp/B0062K76M2

a review of EF via Fotodiox
http://colingriffiths.blogspot.jp/2010/04/panasonic-gf1-fotodiox-eos-shift.html

ect

Getting both tilt and shift however, not to my knowledge.

Also given the 2x crop factor, it s hard to find any lenses allowing a 24mm equivalence in FF.

You almost have to go for the 8-16, 10-20ish, 11-16, or 12-24 lenses. Only the 12-24 FF lenses will have a full 43mm+ image circle, if you want to do more extreme (10mm-ish) shifts.

Unless you hit in the magenta cast and soft corners problems which many wide lenses have on Nex systems.

Actually a problem with Canon and their TSE lenses in fact... certainly visible on many of my 90TSE + 5D2 stitches.

Mft format weakness as of now is corner sharpness on wide angles.

I think that is mostly related to the software correction inherent in all of the native WA options. There is also corner color cast-ing on my G1 when I push exposures (visible this winter with snowscapes, going magenta near the edges with my 14-45 on 14mm... I had to desaturate there to get around it).

I think it is probably inherent to the small flange distance and this probably doesn't bode so well with any wide shift lens. Still I'd be interested.

Any larger format lens being shifted on m43 will have the same flange distance as it would on the original format... whether m43 micro-lenses in the corners are up to the task (as compared with something as advanced as Ricoh's m-mount module) remains to be seen.

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Diane B
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What's available.... tilt adapter
In reply to 1943Mike, Apr 23, 2012

Its certainly not comparable to the Canon T/S lens but I'm enjoying using the Lensbaby tilt adapter with two Nikkor lenses. No wides to satisfy that and of course no shift. I tried my Canon 45/2.8 this morning with my G3 doing shift but a 90 FF equivalent isn't what most T/S folks want. Nonetheless, I'm enjoying the tilt adpter I have in hand. Though the ones I've posted are all selective focus I am able to use the tilt for extended perception of greater DOF also.

See my post in this other thread

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=41301632
Diane
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Diane B
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In reply to T3, Apr 23, 2012

With my Canon I rented the wider T/S lenses and only bought the 45/2.8 which suits my style the best and I only used wider for commercial use. i agree with Chez Wimpy about the controls LOL. As I played with my 45 T/S on my G3 this morning to try shift I was thinking "why" for m4/3. I still have my Canon gear and when I need to get serious with T/S I use it. To be truthful the cost of the lens for the amount of use would put me off buying for m4/3.

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Vlad S
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Diane, could you please tell more?
In reply to Diane B, Apr 23, 2012

Diane B wrote:

With my Canon I rented the wider T/S lenses and only bought the 45/2.8 which suits my style the best and I only used wider for commercial use. i agree with Chez Wimpy about the controls LOL. As I played with my 45 T/S on my G3 this morning to try shift I was thinking "why" for m4/3. I still have my Canon gear and when I need to get serious with T/S I use it. To be truthful the cost of the lens for the amount of use would put me off buying for m4/3.

Hi Diane!

I am looking into a shift adapter on the account of my personal interest in architecture. The most common subject would be public spaces, like lobbies of public buildings, theater interiors, and the like. My main concern with the software perspective correction is the loss of resolution in the upper reaches of the shot due to having to stretch the image - this is also compounded by the smaller size of the detail.

Realistically speaking, I probably would not be able to afford any wider than a 17mm full frame lens to attach to the adapter. Based on your experience, do you think this setup would make sense in my situation?

Thank you-
Vlad

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Anders W
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Re: T/S lenses
In reply to Chez Wimpy, Apr 24, 2012

Chez Wimpy wrote:

rrr_hhh wrote:

Mft format weakness as of now is corner sharpness on wide angles.

I think that is mostly related to the software correction inherent in all of the native WA options. There is also corner color cast-ing on my G1 when I push exposures (visible this winter with snowscapes, going magenta near the edges with my 14-45 on 14mm... I had to desaturate there to get around it).

To my knowledge, there is no evidence supporting the claim that MFT is generally weak with respect to WA corner sharpness compared to larger formats. Neither do I know of any evidence suggesting that software correction is to blame in this regard. So if either of you think differently, I'd much appreciate knowing more of what you have in mind.

Obviously, correction of distortion via software will lead to lower resolution in the corners than there was prior to correction. But this straightforward fact is of no help in answering the question we are really interested in, i.e., if the lens would have been better with respect to corner resolution if it had been designed to yield so little distortion that no software correction would have been required.

The magenta cast that you observe comes as news to me Chez, although I have the same camera and lens and sometimes push shadows in PP. Christiane (rrr_hhh) told me there were problems like that with NEX 7 but this is the first time I hear similar things about MFT. Do you have some samples you could show?

I take it you are not referring to purple fringing, which is visible on several MFT lenses, especially those made by Panasonic, and more pronounced toward the corners than in the center.

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Chez Wimpy
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Re: T/S lenses
In reply to Anders W, Apr 25, 2012

Anders W wrote:

Neither do I know of any evidence suggesting that software correction is to blame in this regard.

On large prints with my 14-45, I can see large pixel 'aliasing' in details near the corners after a standard global USM pass - a problem that is not present throughout the rest of the image. I use a layer mask to remove this (eliminate USM at the cost of corner sharpness), but it is a problem unique to my software corrected lenses.

The magenta cast that you observe comes as news to me Chez, although I have the same camera and lens and sometimes push shadows in PP.

It isn't really from pushing the shadows, you see it with a strong s-curve, or when you are pulling exposures in really bright/contrasty locations. I have only ever seen this on snow however. Stitching is when it becomes a real problem.

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Anders W
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Re: T/S lenses
In reply to Chez Wimpy, Apr 25, 2012

Chez Wimpy wrote:

Anders W wrote:

Neither do I know of any evidence suggesting that software correction is to blame in this regard.

On large prints with my 14-45, I can see large pixel 'aliasing' in details near the corners after a standard global USM pass - a problem that is not present throughout the rest of the image. I use a layer mask to remove this (eliminate USM at the cost of corner sharpness), but it is a problem unique to my software corrected lenses.

Thanks for your response Chez. Although I have never seen this myself first-hand, what you describe seems like a likely consequence if you enlarge a corrected image sufficiently. But it's an interaction effect of the medium (insufficient sensor resolution once things are stretched) and the software-correction that should become less and less pressing as sensor resolution increases.

The magenta cast that you observe comes as news to me Chez, although I have the same camera and lens and sometimes push shadows in PP.

It isn't really from pushing the shadows, you see it with a strong s-curve, or when you are pulling exposures in really bright/contrasty locations. I have only ever seen this on snow however. Stitching is when it becomes a real problem.

I have a hard time seeing much of a magenta cast in that image. Are you sure it isn't just a bit of vignetting (which the 14-45 certainly has)?

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rrr_hhh
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Re: T/S lenses
In reply to Anders W, Apr 25, 2012

Anders W wrote:

To my knowledge, there is no evidence supporting the claim that MFT is generally weak with respect to WA corner sharpness compared to larger formats. Neither do I know of any evidence suggesting that software correction is to blame in this regard. So if either of you think differently, I'd much appreciate knowing more of what you have in mind.

I have three different answers for that :

a) When I first bought the E-P2, it was mainly to use legacy adapted lenses and from my readings in different forums, including this one, I quickly came to the conclusion that any lens wider than 35mm would get soft corners, even the ones which were good Zeiss Contax G 28mm F2.8, but it needs to be modified to be mounted on an mft adapter. After reading more about the corners problems, I renounced to make that modification.

b) On the native mft lenses, the difference between corner and middle sharpness is always more important than for equivalent FF lenses. Most lenses are good in the center and lenses weakness shows in the corners. So may be it is only due to the fact that for FF you find top of the notch lenses, while such lenses are still missing in mft.

c) I have a friend who is a pro-photographer and his main clients are big hotels who hire him for their advertisements. Lately he was considering changing gear in order to be at the same time lighter and faster and be able to diminish his prices with respect to the competition. He uses mainly Canon gear, including the TSE lenses. He investigated the mft and specifically the wide lenses, had his eyes on the 7-14mm but after comparisons concluded that the IQ wasn't there yet and renounced to this project. If you have to redress perspective in post, your corners get even softer.

Obviously, correction of distortion via software will lead to lower resolution in the corners than there was prior to correction. But this straightforward fact is of no help in answering the question we are really interested in, i.e., if the lens would have been better with respect to corner resolution if it had been designed to yield so little distortion that no software correction would have been required.

Exactly, that is one of the problems. The other is linked to the steep angle at which the photon fall on the corners of the sensor (at least this is how my friend explains the problem he found out).

The magenta cast that you observe comes as news to me Chez, although I have the same camera and lens and sometimes push shadows in PP. Christiane (rrr_hhh) told me there were problems like that with NEX 7 but this is the first time I hear similar things about MFT. Do you have some samples you could show?

Yes, there were such problem first in the Nex-5; they were corrected in the Nex-5n, but reappeared in the Nex-7.

I saw traces of this problem in some mft pictures too. In one case the picture was over exposed and there were fine branches against a blank sky and a lot of CA. I noted that in fact the magenta/purple ca wasn't the only reason why the corners appeared to have got a slight cast, the sky had it too. But compared to some examples of the Nex it was really only traces. Things are more under control on the mft sensors. May be it was only due to the over exposure, or may be the over exposure made it more visible.

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