Canon sensor technology

Started Apr 21, 2012 | Discussions
Stepanfo
Senior MemberPosts: 1,063
Like?
Canon sensor technology
Apr 21, 2012

Is here anyone with knowledge of sensor technology, who knows what is going on, who knows patent background, etc?

In Nikon Cameras we see improvements - both in Nikon (D3s and D4) and Sony sensors (D3x and D800). D4 managed to go where D3x (former DSLR image quality king) was, and D800 reached new heights. What is Canon doing? From the picture it seems that they might have hit the ceiling of their current technology. Is it really so? Or is this trend caused just by 5D series cameras, to which Canon may have some "easy approach", not trying to reach much improvements there? Is Canon held back by recent Sony patents? What is their position and what can they do now?

I hope to see some technical and rational discussion here...

Canon EOS 5D Nikon D3X Nikon D4 Nikon D800
If you believe there are incorrect tags, please send us this post using our feedback form.
mrahmo
Contributing MemberPosts: 580Gear list
Like?
Re: Canon sensor technology
In reply to Stepanfo, Apr 21, 2012

i am also sad about what canon is doing now, basically because i shoot at low ISO mainly, and would like to take some clean shots at high ISO

when DXO figures were announced i started to think going to Nikon "still thinking", however after examining the figures, measurments and analysis, i saw the following

at base ISO canon did not see it necessary to improve the Noise or DR, part of this is due to the fact that you will not see noise or need high DR unless you are pushing your shots........... it is a bit logical, but i am always in the situation described by this link
http://www.fredmiranda.com/5DIII-D800/index_controlled-tests.html

the second part, is a slightly good news, that canon has less noise in High ISO, so at least they improved in this part

so if you take these 2 points, an see how DXO score thier sensors, if canon ISO 12800 was the same as ISO 100 in ever aspect, but still Nikon ISO 100 is better, Nikon will score higher................so donlt rely on the score so much

on the other hand, at base ISO DR and low noise was something clearly missed by canon, and this is the truely annoying part, just see this link to know why
http://www.sensorgen.info/
it shows that canon sensor actually imprved in many areas, even over the D800

 mrahmo's gear list:mrahmo's gear list
Canon EOS 7D Canon EOS 5D Mark III Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L II USM Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM +1 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
RedFox88
Forum ProPosts: 21,597
Like?
why are you believing DxO as gospel?
In reply to Stepanfo, Apr 21, 2012

Why are you blindly believing DxO's number test as gospel for what a camera can do? Only a fool believes something as silly as DxO. It's been pointed out here before that their test is skewed towards certain factors that favor certain sensors.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mikael Risedal
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,000
Like?
Re: why are you believing DxO as gospel? ignorance
In reply to RedFox88, Apr 21, 2012

your skill level is extremely low

RedFox88 wrote:

Why are you blindly believing DxO's number test as gospel for what a camera can do? Only a fool believes something as silly as DxO. It's been pointed out here before that their test is skewed towards certain factors that favor certain sensors.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Skip M
Veteran MemberPosts: 7,171
Like?
Re: why are you believing DxO as gospel? ignorance
In reply to Mikael Risedal, Apr 21, 2012

Mikael Risedal wrote:

your skill level is extremely low

a) On what do you base that statement?
b) What earthly relevance does that statement have to the present discussion?

c) Is your skill level such that it can withstand scrutiny from those who may take exception to the above statement?

RedFox88 wrote:

Why are you blindly believing DxO's number test as gospel for what a camera can do? Only a fool believes something as silly as DxO. It's been pointed out here before that their test is skewed towards certain factors that favor certain sensors.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Macgupta
Regular MemberPosts: 134
Like?
Re: Canon sensor technology
In reply to Stepanfo, Apr 21, 2012

I read elsewhere that Samsung uses in some of its video chips the same type of sensor signal read methods that Sony does in its Exmor sensors, so apparently it is not a matter of patents.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Bernie Ess
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,899Gear list
Like?
You don't have to, read....
In reply to RedFox88, Apr 21, 2012

read Fred Mirandas review and LOOK at his sampels. Canon files do not like being pushed in the shadows, or they will show bad noise.
Has always been like that.

When you shoot a scene with a bright sky, you end up with either an ugly white sky, or you expose for the lights and get very dark scenery on the ground (whatever there is). Now with a Canon file if you lighten up in post, it will give you ugly noise, where Nikon files are essentially intact and noiseless. The difference is so dramatic that it is not funny.

Canon uses old technology and refuses to invest into newer one. The former quality leader now is an "also ran".

Sad.

bernie

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
erbtype
Regular MemberPosts: 113
Like?
meh
In reply to Skip M, Apr 21, 2012

People need to go out and take some pictures rather than looking over their shoulders at what the other side are doing.

If you look on the internet, read a magazine or a newspaper there's plenty of stunning images being taken with cameras from all the main manufacturers. Learn your kit, learn the compromises that come with it, start taking great pictures and forget about some synthetic test.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
gdanmitchell
Veteran MemberPosts: 7,730
Like?
Re: Canon sensor technology
In reply to Stepanfo, Apr 21, 2012

If you are assuming that DXO testing results can be read as "higher DXO score means better camera," you are putting too much faith in those summary numbers. It ain't that simple.

Dan

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Rickuz
Regular MemberPosts: 117
Like?
Re: meh
In reply to erbtype, Apr 21, 2012

Oh how tired I am of all the "go out and take pictures-apologists".

You are completely missing the point here, and I should not even have to explain what it is.

erbtype wrote:

People need to go out and take some pictures rather than looking over their shoulders at what the other side are doing.

If you look on the internet, read a magazine or a newspaper there's plenty of stunning images being taken with cameras from all the main manufacturers. Learn your kit, learn the compromises that come with it, start taking great pictures and forget about some synthetic test.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
erbtype
Regular MemberPosts: 113
Like?
Re: meh
In reply to Rickuz, Apr 21, 2012

Poor you. I'm not missing any point and there's nothing you need to explain, I'm just sick of the plethora of threads over analysing this, that and the other since the 5DIII/D800 hit the streets. You also seem to have missed my point about compromises.

At least we have some common ground in being tired of something

Rickuz wrote:
Oh how tired I am of all the "go out and take pictures-apologists".

You are completely missing the point here, and I should not even have to explain what it is.

erbtype wrote:

People need to go out and take some pictures rather than looking over their shoulders at what the other side are doing.

If you look on the internet, read a magazine or a newspaper there's plenty of stunning images being taken with cameras from all the main manufacturers. Learn your kit, learn the compromises that come with it, start taking great pictures and forget about some synthetic test.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Stone13
Regular MemberPosts: 201
Like?
Re: meh
In reply to Rickuz, Apr 21, 2012

Is that not what we buy these camera for? To take pictures, I didn't spend thousands on my kit and accessories to spend all day shooting with the lens cap on, or worrying about numbers on a spreadsheet. Most of us bought our cameras so we could "go out and take pictures". You guys have yet to make a point, which is why you continually say the same things over and over and over and over and over.

For some reason you think we don't get it, when in actuality, we simply don't care. We know a camera is no better than the man or woman behind it and all the DR in the world makes no difference if you're a crappy photog.

We're not apologists because there's no apology necessary. You care about numbers on a spreadsheet and we care about pictures, at the end of the day, they're just cameras, so who's more dense?

Rickuz wrote:

Oh how tired I am of all the "go out and take pictures-apologists".

You are completely missing the point here, and I should not even have to explain what it is.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
mick232
Contributing MemberPosts: 753Gear list
Like?
Re: meh
In reply to erbtype, Apr 21, 2012

erbtype wrote:

Poor you. I'm not missing any point and there's nothing you need to explain, I'm just sick of the plethora of threads over analysing this, that and the other since the 5DIII/D800 hit the streets. You also seem to have missed my point about compromises.

At least we have some common ground in being tired of something

This is a so-called "forum". It is for exchanging opinions, and gear-talk is of course an important part of that.

If you prefer to do so, go out and take pictures. Nobody is forcing you to read the forum. If you prefer to watch pictures, go ahead and watch the gallery.

 mick232's gear list:mick232's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-5 Sony SLT-A99 Tamron SP AF 70-200mm F/2.8 Di LD (IF) MACRO Sony 75-300mm F4.5-5.6 Sony 85mm F2.8 SAM +21 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
David Hull
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,330Gear list
Like?
Re: You don't have to, read....
In reply to Bernie Ess, Apr 21, 2012

Bernie Ess wrote:

read Fred Mirandas review and LOOK at his sampels. Canon files do not like being pushed in the shadows, or they will show bad noise.
Has always been like that.

And then look at the samples on the first page of that review and ask yourself if anything on the second page really matters.

When you shoot a scene with a bright sky, you end up with either an ugly white sky, or you expose for the lights and get very dark scenery on the ground (whatever there is). Now with a Canon file if you lighten up in post, it will give you ugly noise, where Nikon files are essentially intact and noiseless. The difference is so dramatic that it is not funny.

An example of improper application of the tool.

Canon uses old technology and refuses to invest into newer one. The former quality leader now is an "also ran".

Another case of inaccurate information prsented as fact.

Sad.

bernie

 David Hull's gear list:David Hull's gear list
Canon EOS 50D Canon EOS 5D Mark III
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
David Hull
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,330Gear list
Like?
Re: Canon sensor technology
In reply to Macgupta, Apr 21, 2012

Macgupta wrote:

I read elsewhere that Samsung uses in some of its video chips the same type of sensor signal read methods that Sony does in its Exmor sensors, so apparently it is not a matter of patents.

They may have licensed the technology. Do you have the link? If I remember correctly, the IBM patent usually cited as forming the basis for the Sony design is 20 years old.

 David Hull's gear list:David Hull's gear list
Canon EOS 50D Canon EOS 5D Mark III
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
David Hull
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,330Gear list
Like?
Re: Canon sensor technology
In reply to Stepanfo, Apr 21, 2012

Have you bothered to dig through the DxO information and figure out what that summary number means? Not only what does it mean in and of itself but what does it actually mean in terms of photography? If you do this, you may come to the conclusion that many already have which is that the number is essentially meaningless for comparing cameras.

The lower level curves for DR, SNR etc. are much more meaningful.
--
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/26158506@N07/

 David Hull's gear list:David Hull's gear list
Canon EOS 50D Canon EOS 5D Mark III
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Daniel Clune
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,428Gear list
Like?
Re: You don't have to, read....
In reply to David Hull, Apr 21, 2012

David Hull wrote:

Bernie Ess wrote:

read Fred Mirandas review and LOOK at his sampels. Canon files do not like being pushed in the shadows, or they will show bad noise.
Has always been like that.

This is true but you can shoot two pictures and combine later in photoshop. Cant always do this though (:.

And then look at the samples on the first page of that review and ask yourself if anything on the second page really matters.

When you shoot a scene with a bright sky, you end up with either an ugly white sky, or you expose for the lights and get very dark scenery on the ground (whatever there is). Now with a Canon file if you lighten up in post, it will give you ugly noise, where Nikon files are essentially intact and noiseless. The difference is so dramatic that it is not funny.

An example of improper application of the tool.

Well if you cant do two or more shots and combine later then your stuck. Over expose shot to much highlights are gone.

Canon uses old technology and refuses to invest into newer one. The former quality leader now is an "also ran".

Another case of inaccurate information prsented as fact.

No, he is right canon is using old tech on there sensor, hence no real improvement over 5D2 unless you count improved jpg engine in 5D3 over 5D2. .

Sad.

bernie

-- hide signature --
 Daniel Clune's gear list:Daniel Clune's gear list
Nikon D800 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 200-400mm f/4G ED-IF VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-120mm f/4G ED VR Epson Stylus Photo R1900
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
commiebiker
Senior MemberPosts: 1,388Gear list
Like?
Re: meh
In reply to Stone13, Apr 21, 2012

I spend a lot of time taking pictures AND I also look at this web site, the Nikon, Canon, and Sony (NEX) forums especially. These are interesting times.

Of course there have been great pictures taken with all sorts of gear. I've seen beautiful pictures taken with a homemade pinhole camera fashioned out of a toilet paper tube...but I sure wouldn't want to shoot a wedding or a concert with such a camera

Gear does matter....when the D3s came out, it allowed me to shoot in situations that I couldn't before...gave me a huge leg up on the competition.

Like many on this forum, I have many thousands of dollars tied up in my gear. I'm hugely interested in the new products from both the brand I use and the main competitors.

Part is interest, part is brand loyalty,and part is professional curiosity. I like to be informed...since I'm out taking pictures a lot anyway..."just go out and shoot" isn't helpful information to me

Stone13 wrote:

Is that not what we buy these camera for? To take pictures, I didn't spend thousands on my kit and accessories to spend all day shooting with the lens cap on, or worrying about numbers on a spreadsheet. Most of us bought our cameras so we could "go out and take pictures". You guys have yet to make a point, which is why you continually say the same things over and over and over and over and over.

For some reason you think we don't get it, when in actuality, we simply don't care. We know a camera is no better than the man or woman behind it and all the DR in the world makes no difference if you're a crappy photog.

We're not apologists because there's no apology necessary. You care about numbers on a spreadsheet and we care about pictures, at the end of the day, they're just cameras, so who's more dense?

Rickuz wrote:

Oh how tired I am of all the "go out and take pictures-apologists".

You are completely missing the point here, and I should not even have to explain what it is.

 commiebiker's gear list:commiebiker's gear list
Nikon D3S Sony Alpha NEX-7 Nikon D4 Nikon D800 Sony Alpha 7R +8 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
bronxbombers
Forum ProPosts: 18,226
Like?
for good reason:
In reply to RedFox88, Apr 22, 2012

RedFox88 wrote:

Why are you blindly believing DxO's number test as gospel for what a camera can do? Only a fool believes something as silly as DxO. It's been pointed out here before that their test is skewed towards certain factors that favor certain sensors.

maybe because their measurements match what everone else gets when they give it a go?

did you see these actual photos:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/5DIII-D800/index_controlled-tests.html

still believe all the DR charts and graphs everyone, including DxO has posted are just silly nonsense?

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
bronxbombers
Forum ProPosts: 18,226
Like?
Re: You don't have to, read....
In reply to David Hull, Apr 22, 2012

David Hull wrote:

Bernie Ess wrote:

read Fred Mirandas review and LOOK at his sampels. Canon files do not like being pushed in the shadows, or they will show bad noise.
Has always been like that.

And then look at the samples on the first page of that review and ask yourself if anything on the second page really matters.

yeah it can, not for all shots of course, but for some for sure

When you shoot a scene with a bright sky, you end up with either an ugly white sky, or you expose for the lights and get very dark scenery on the ground (whatever there is). Now with a Canon file if you lighten up in post, it will give you ugly noise, where Nikon files are essentially intact and noiseless. The difference is so dramatic that it is not funny.

An example of improper application of the tool.

so any time you shoot a subject where canon doesn't do best is now an improper shot? LOL

Canon uses old technology and refuses to invest into newer one. The former quality leader now is an "also ran".

Another case of inaccurate information prsented as fact.

how is it inaccurate?

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads