FF + mFT One beautiful system !

Started Apr 14, 2012 | Discussions
jim stirling
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FF + mFT One beautiful system !
Apr 14, 2012

For a change let’s talk about mFT and FF as a perfect combo system. I think at present the most at risk formats are in no particular order low end P&S {from phone cameras} , high-end P&S { from low end mirrorless} , low – Mid level APS DSLR’s { from high end mirrorless} . I think the least threatened DSLR’s are actually the latest FF models as they have enough of a difference in 1Q, DR, DOF control to justify the niche that they fill.

I am no longer in the paid photography game {hallelujah } having found a more lucrative and enjoyable business to pay the bills. With this in mind I no longer have a great need for super high ISO setting so my D3s is for the chop and a couple of niche lenses will meet the same fate including my Nikon 200mm F2 { older model} . I am interested in what you guys would think would make for the best complimentary two system set up. My main personal interests are landscape, family, travel, with some macro , video and the odd telephoto shot {very rare}.

The Nikon equipment I intend to keep is the D700 as a back up to my pre-ordered D800 , in lenses { I have just included the AF options as I have a barrow load of older manual focus lenses } I have the 14-24mm,24-70mm,70-200VR2mm , PC-E 24mm f/3.5 ,35mm F1.4g , 50mm f1.4g, 85mm f1.4g , 105mm micro. The lenses and gear that I am considering chopping are 24mm F2.8, 50mm f1.4D, 180mm F2.8 , 200mm f2 , the Nikon D300s the 17-55DX and finally the 35mm f1.8DX.

My current mFT gear is the GF1 { will probably replace with the GX1} the GH2 { will probably replace with either the GH3 or E-M5 depending} in lenses I will be selling the Olympus 12-60 { as I would rather have a fully AF compatible lens in this area} the lenses I will be definitely keeping are the 14mm,20mm ,45mm F1.8, Olympus 50mm macro, will buy the new 75mm F1.8 when it appears . The zooms I am not so sure about 14-45 { good quality good size} , 14-140 { good for video} and 100-300 { not used all that often}.

So instead of the DSLR vs mFT battle that often rages what you think would be a good combined system taking advantage of what each system does best.
Jim

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dennis tennis
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Re: FF + mFT One beautiful system !
In reply to jim stirling, Apr 14, 2012

Your Nikon is all set.

have you considered replacing or augmenting the 14 and 20 with 12 and 25?

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jim stirling
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Re: FF + mFT One beautiful system !
In reply to dennis tennis, Apr 14, 2012

dennis tennis wrote:

Your Nikon is all set.

have you considered replacing or augmenting the 14 and 20 with 12 and 25?

Hi Dennis, those two are certainly on my consideration list. I wouldn’t mind cutting down the overall number of lenses between both set ups, and ending up with a complimentary selection. For example in macro I like the adjustable LCD option very much, and I would be more inclined to use the 50mm Olympus so the 105mm Nikon could be under consideration for retirement. And I would certainly consider chopping and changing lenses to come up with a balanced set.

Jim

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TrapperJohn
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If I had the budget...
In reply to jim stirling, Apr 14, 2012

I'd get a Leica M9. The cross use of lenses is mind boggling. Most Leica M glass is relatively compact, so it would go over to a M43 body nicely. So you could have ultra detail when you want it, or great detail and ultra compact when you want it. My local camera store has a new M9 sitting on the shelf, marked down to a paltry $7k, so that will remain a dream system.

I will say that D700 prices have caught my attention. My best Nikkors are all MF (105 1.8, 400 3.5), but I've always been impressed with the D700's output. So that might be my budget cross platform system: EM5+D700. In a couple of years, if D700 prices get down to the $1k range, I might just grab one.

You may want to hang onto the 12-60 if you're thinking about an EM5. I've seen some pretty impressive videos of the 12-60 AF'ing on the EM5. Not lightning fast, but in the 1 second range which is quite useable on relatively static subjects. That is a very sweet lens.

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Anders W
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Re: FF + mFT One beautiful system !
In reply to jim stirling, Apr 14, 2012

jim stirling wrote:

For a change let’s talk about mFT and FF as a perfect combo system. I think at present the most at risk formats are in no particular order low end P&S {from phone cameras} , high-end P&S { from low end mirrorless} , low – Mid level APS DSLR’s { from high end mirrorless} . I think the least threatened DSLR’s are actually the latest FF models as they have enough of a difference in 1Q, DR, DOF control to justify the niche that they fill.

I am no longer in the paid photography game {hallelujah } having found a more lucrative and enjoyable business to pay the bills. With this in mind I no longer have a great need for super high ISO setting so my D3s is for the chop and a couple of niche lenses will meet the same fate including my Nikon 200mm F2 { older model} . I am interested in what you guys would think would make for the best complimentary two system set up. My main personal interests are landscape, family, travel, with some macro , video and the odd telephoto shot {very rare}.

The Nikon equipment I intend to keep is the D700 as a back up to my pre-ordered D800 , in lenses { I have just included the AF options as I have a barrow load of older manual focus lenses } I have the 14-24mm,24-70mm,70-200VR2mm , PC-E 24mm f/3.5 ,35mm F1.4g , 50mm f1.4g, 85mm f1.4g , 105mm micro. The lenses and gear that I am considering chopping are 24mm F2.8, 50mm f1.4D, 180mm F2.8 , 200mm f2 , the Nikon D300s the 17-55DX and finally the 35mm f1.8DX.

My current mFT gear is the GF1 { will probably replace with the GX1} the GH2 { will probably replace with either the GH3 or E-M5 depending} in lenses I will be selling the Olympus 12-60 { as I would rather have a fully AF compatible lens in this area} the lenses I will be definitely keeping are the 14mm,20mm ,45mm F1.8, Olympus 50mm macro, will buy the new 75mm F1.8 when it appears . The zooms I am not so sure about 14-45 { good quality good size} , 14-140 { good for video} and 100-300 { not used all that often}.

So instead of the DSLR vs mFT battle that often rages what you think would be a good combined system taking advantage of what each system does best.
Jim

Hi Jim,

Seems like you've got a pretty decent kit on the FF as well as MFT side.

On the FF side, it looks like you have all important bases covered already and I have no difficulties understanding your list of lenses to be "chopped" in view of what you are left with.

On the MFT side I have four of the lenses you mention (14, 20, 14-45, 100-300) and wouldn't get rid of any of them. Another two are on my shopping list (45/1.8 and 75/1.8). The remaining three (12-60, 50 macro, 14-140) would probably be on my "chopping" list if I had them, in spite of of the fact that I know at least the first two to be stellar optically.

But, since you are likely to end up with some cash for new acquisitions after selling off, have you considered some new acquisitions to help you out on the UWA/fisheye side of things, such as the 7-14 (which I have), the 9-18 and/or the Samyang 7.5/3.5 (which is on my shopping list)?

After all, the main advantage of MFT is that it is more likely to be with you when you need it, and the 14-24/2.8 on a D800 isn't exactly a small and light combo.

I walked the streets of Rome for a week at the end of March with the G1 and the 14-45 in a holster and four lenses (7-14, 14, 20, Minolta MD 85/2) in my vest pockets. Can't say I even felt that I was carrying anything.

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CharlesB58
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Re: FF + mFT One beautiful system !
In reply to jim stirling, Apr 14, 2012

This is an interesting topic because it's been a consideration of mine for several months. I'm not one to wring my hands over convincing myself that 4/3 would do me just as well as FF. For me it's a matter of finances. If I had the budget, my overall kit would be:

D800 with the 14-24, 24-70 and 70-200 you mention, and probably the 85 f1.4. This would be the gear for studio portraits intended for printing, concert/event work where making sure I have the cleanest high ISO images I could manage was a priority over size and weight concerns, and landscapes and other work where I ultimately want large prints with lots of detail.

EM5 with the 12-60 for video, 14-54 as "walk around" zoom, 24 f2, 45 f1.8 and the 75f1.8 when it comes out. In certain situations I would sub my 4/3 40-150 with MMF-3. However, the Panasonic 12-35 and 35-100 could change things.

I would use the EM5 kit for the bulk of my photography, including concerts and events where maintaining a low profile is needed. I've seen people turn into mannequins at the sight of a big dslr with big zooms pointed at them. It would likely be my main camera for video simply because mirrorless is better suited for video in practical terms than a DSLR.

Where would an E5 and HG or SHG glass fit into this? I'm not sure it would under this "money isn't an issue" scenario. But, since it is an issue for me, I'm more likely build the EM5 kit next, then see to an E5/SHG kit.
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jim stirling
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Re: FF + mFT One beautiful system !
In reply to Anders W, Apr 14, 2012

Anders W wrote:

Hi Jim,

Seems like you've got a pretty decent kit on the FF as well as MFT side.

Well Anders , I used to need it now I can trim around the edges happy days.

On the FF side, it looks like you have all important bases covered already and I have no difficulties understanding your list of lenses to be "chopped" in view of what you are left with.

Chopped sounds a bit harsh when I reread my post perhaps recycled into something more useful would be kinder.

On the MFT side I have four of the lenses you mention (14, 20, 14-45, 100-300) and wouldn't get rid of any of them. Another two are on my shopping list (45/1.8 and 75/1.8). The remaining three (12-60, 50 macro, 14-140) would probably be on my "chopping" list if I had them, in spite of of the fact that I know at least the first two to be stellar optically.

I find I shoot macro almost exclusively in manual focus with the combination of adjustable LCD and manual focus assist and the 50mm really is a very good lens. The 14-140 works very well for video however the 14-45 is a more compact and very capable lens for the money. The 12-60 is a very good standard zoom but the reports about the AF even on the E-M5 are pretty inconclusive.

But, since you are likely to end up with some cash for new acquisitions after selling off, have you considered some new acquisitions to help you out on the UWA/fisheye side of things, such as the 7-14 (which I have), the 9-18 and/or the Samyang 7.5/3.5 (which is on my shopping list).

Interestingly enough although I have the pretty amazing 14-24 I do not use it that often .I will hold on to it as there is simply no better option around and I suspect when mounted on the D800 it will shine.

After all, the main advantage of MFT is that it is more likely to be with you when you need it, and the 14-24/2.8 on a D800 isn't exactly a small and light combo.

No not exactly svelte but quite manageable I can certainly carry a 2kg load with little bother.

I walked the streets of Rome for a week at the end of March with the G1 and the 14-45 in a holster and four lenses (7-14, 14, 20, Minolta MD 85/2) in my vest pockets. Can't say I even felt that I was carrying anything.

I will be doing some travelling soon and this is where mFT really shines for me .A pretty comprehensive set up can be carried without the look of woe that appears on my wife’s face when a large DSLR comes out the bag

Jim

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jim stirling
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Re: If I had the budget...
In reply to TrapperJohn, Apr 14, 2012

TrapperJohn wrote:

I'd get a Leica M9. The cross use of lenses is mind boggling. Most Leica M glass is relatively compact, so it would go over to a M43 body nicely. So you could have ultra detail when you want it, or great detail and ultra compact when you want it. My local camera store has a new M9 sitting on the shelf, marked down to a paltry $7k, so that will remain a dream system.

I have never been a rangefinder fan { sorry guys} and a DSLR + mFT combo is attractive.

I will say that D700 prices have caught my attention. My best Nikkors are all MF (105 1.8, 400 3.5), but I've always been impressed with the D700's output. So that might be my budget cross platform system: EM5+D700. In a couple of years, if D700 prices get down to the $1k range, I might just grab one.

You may want to hang onto the 12-60 if you're thinking about an EM5. I've seen some pretty impressive videos of the 12-60 AF'ing on the EM5. Not lightning fast, but in the 1 second range which is quite useable on relatively static subjects. That is a very sweet lens.

I had considered the 12-60 as it is a btter option than nay of the mFT standard zooms but I have seen a lot of differences of opinion on whether the AF is better on the E-M5
Jim

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jim stirling
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Re: FF + mFT One beautiful system !
In reply to CharlesB58, Apr 14, 2012

CharlesB58 wrote:

This is an interesting topic because it's been a consideration of mine for several months. I'm not one to wring my hands over convincing myself that 4/3 would do me just as well as FF. For me it's a matter of finances. If I had the budget, my overall kit would be:

D800 with the 14-24, 24-70 and 70-200 you mention, and probably the 85 f1.4. This would be the gear for studio portraits intended for printing, concert/event work where making sure I have the cleanest high ISO images I could manage was a priority over size and weight concerns, and landscapes and other work where I ultimately want large prints with lots of detail.

EM5 with the 12-60 for video, 14-54 as "walk around" zoom, 24 f2, 45 f1.8 and the 75f1.8 when it comes out. In certain situations I would sub my 4/3 40-150 with MMF-3. However, the Panasonic 12-35 and 35-100 could change things.

Yes I wonder if the Panasonic 12-35 and 35-100 will deliver what we are all hoping for

I would use the EM5 kit for the bulk of my photography, including concerts and events where maintaining a low profile is needed. I've seen people turn into mannequins at the sight of a big dslr with big zooms pointed at them. It would likely be my main camera for video simply because mirrorless is better suited for video in practical terms than a DSLR.

I agree for video a DSLR is just not the right shape and I find an adjustable LCD very useful combined with the level of results that the GH2 can deliver it is a no brainer . I have found DSLR video whilst very good quality to be mainly useful for tripod based work. I know you can get all sorts of rigs and so on but mFT wins in video for me.

Where would an E5 and HG or SHG glass fit into this? I'm not sure it would under this "money isn't an issue" scenario. But, since it is an issue for me, I'm more likely build the EM5 kit next, then see to an E5/SHG kit.

I think with the rate of development of mFT it will not be long till they have a fully functioning soloution for fast AF of FT lens on mFT.

Jim.

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I like FF + compact system idea
In reply to jim stirling, Apr 14, 2012

I like that idea as well, an FF and a smaller compact camera system. I'm moving from D7000 to D800 (D7000 is a great camera, stays as backup), I already have a few FF-able lenses (primes), need zooms. In the WA area, I'm debating between the 14-24 and the 16-35, mainly because of filter capabilities of the latter, what do you think?

I got my wife a V1, it's a little gem for easy/fast shooting, but IQ is not what I'm used to, maybe the GX1 could be it. For now the V1 fits the bill when I want to go very light, and need to get the D800+zooms, maybe next year will venture into something like the GX1 or whatever shows up. I wished Nikon would come with a ML APS-C line (mainly because I would be able to use the Nikkors, very likely), but it's going to take a while, unless they have a surprise up their sleeves (for example, the delayed D400 may well carry the PDAF system of the V1, which is awesome, in preparation for a ML APS-C body, who knows).

Anyway, we have more that enough options right now, it's easy to find great tools.

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Re: If I had the budget...
In reply to jim stirling, Apr 14, 2012

I still own an M3 + Summicron 35, wish Leica would make it easier for older Leica users to go digital RF, I like it, but the price is ridiculous, especially taking into account that the sensor is going to become "old" in just a few years. They should have found a way to make it with sensor/adc module that could be replaced, then I might consider it. But think of how sensors have evolved just in half a decade after the intro of the D3. Now the D800's sensor is at the top, but I bet things will still develop in various directions.
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jim stirling
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Re: I like FF + compact system idea
In reply to rhlpetrus, Apr 14, 2012

rhlpetrus wrote:

I like that idea as well, an FF and a smaller compact camera system. I'm moving from D7000 to D800 (D7000 is a great camera, stays as backup), I already have a few FF-able lenses (primes), need zooms. In the WA area, I'm debating between the 14-24 and the 16-35, mainly because of filter capabilities of the latter, what do you think?

I much prefer the focal range of the 16-35 as it covers a more useful range { for me anyway } on the other hand the 14-24 is a pretty amazing piece of glass for what it does and will shine on the D800. I have the Lee SW150 system which allows you to use filters though not cheap it works very well. There is also the Hitech Lucroit holder which costs a bit less though I have never used it available here

http://www.formatt.co.uk/stills-filters/hitech-165mm-hardware/products.aspx

I got my wife a V1, it's a little gem for easy/fast shooting, but IQ is not what I'm used to, maybe the GX1 could be it. For now the V1 fits the bill when I want to go very light, and need to get the D800+zooms, maybe next year will venture into something like the GX1 or whatever shows up. I wished Nikon would come with a ML APS-C line (mainly because I would be able to use the Nikkors, very likely), but it's going to take a while, unless they have a surprise up their sleeves (for example, the delayed D400 may well carry the PDAF system of the V1, which is awesome, in preparation for a ML APS-C body, who knows).

I think that a mirrorless APS system will be at a disadvanatge in the lens size stakes some of the mFT lenses are very compact and all are smaller than would be the case on APS.

Anyway, we have more that enough options right now, it's easy to find great tools.

That is for sure Renato , the choices available today are excellent
Jim

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CharlesB58
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Re: FF + mFT One beautiful system !
In reply to jim stirling, Apr 14, 2012

jim stirling wrote:

I think with the rate of development of mFT it will not be long till they have a fully functioning soloution for fast AF of FT lens on mFT.

Jim.

Faster AF on m4/3 is only part of my concern. It also has to do with the tendency of the non-CDAF lenses to crank back and forth trying to lock focus. That's a lot of wear and tear on a motor that is optimized to quickly move to a point of focus based on PDAF. I've no doubt Olympus will have a forthcoming solution, given that they have at least 2 patents that address the issue of PDAF in a mirrorless design.

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Re: FF + mFT One beautiful system !
In reply to jim stirling, Apr 14, 2012

jim stirling wrote:

I think at present the most at risk formats are in no particular order low end P&S {from phone cameras} , high-end P&S { from low end mirrorless} , low – Mid level APS DSLR’s { from high end mirrorless} . I think the least threatened DSLR’s are actually the latest FF models as they have enough of a difference in 1Q, DR, DOF control to justify the niche that they fill.

agree with most of that, but I don't see how high end mirrorless can compete with low-mid level APS DSLRs. Entry DSLRs are quite capable and FAR cheaper than high end mirrorless; I don't see that pricegap closing soon.

So instead of the DSLR vs mFT battle that often rages what you think would be a good combined system taking advantage of what each system does best.

I currently use mostly APSC DSLR system from Canon and am considering the same option as you. But I would prefer a FF Canon camera because most of my current lenses could be used on FF Canon body. Unfortunately the new 5D3 is not my taste. I'm still hoping that Canon will recognize the demand for a smaller, lighter FF DSLR camera with better sensor for landscape/nature/studio etc. Or maybe an FF mirrorless system that accepts EF lenses (using an adapter), you never know what Canon will think of in order to 'segment' (milk) the market.

Although my current DSLR setup isn't that big, I find that I leave it at home too often because of bulk/weight. So I need either a high end compact (like Canon S100) or an m43 system with some compact primes for 'walkaround' photography. Currently awaiting the verdict on the EM-5.

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jim stirling
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Re: FF + mFT One beautiful system !
In reply to technic, Apr 14, 2012

technic wrote:

jim stirling wrote:

I think at present the most at risk formats are in no particular order low end P&S {from phone cameras} , high-end P&S { from low end mirrorless} , low – Mid level APS DSLR’s { from high end mirrorless} . I think the least threatened DSLR’s are actually the latest FF models as they have enough of a difference in 1Q, DR, DOF control to justify the niche that they fill.

agree with most of that, but I don't see how high end mirrorless can compete with low-mid level APS DSLRs. Entry DSLRs are quite capable and FAR cheaper than high end mirrorless; I don't see that pricegap closing soon.

I think that they compete in IQ with low -mid level DSLR and win on size and weight. Though the best APS sensors do have an advantage over mFT cameras I do not believe it is enough to justify the size and weight penalty. Whereas ,while FF does have a definite weight and size penalty it is offset by the genuine advantages in output.

So instead of the DSLR vs mFT battle that often rages what you think would be a good combined system taking advantage of what each system does best.

I currently use mostly APSC DSLR system from Canon and am considering the same option as you. But I would prefer a FF Canon camera because most of my current lenses could be used on FF Canon body. Unfortunately the new 5D3 is not my taste. I'm still hoping that Canon will recognize the demand for a smaller, lighter FF DSLR camera with better sensor for landscape/nature/studio etc. Or maybe an FF mirrorless system that accepts EF lenses (using an adapter), you never know what Canon will think of in order to 'segment' (milk) the market.

Yes I would not change ship because of one body , if you have a selection of lenses that can be utilised by a Canon body Canon is the way to go.

Although my current DSLR setup isn't that big, I find that I leave it at home too often because of bulk/weight. So I need either a high end compact (like Canon S100) or an m43 system with some compact primes for 'walkaround' photography. Currently awaiting the verdict on the EM-5.

The more compact mFT models such as the GF range combined with a couple of pancake lenses makes for an excellent carry everywhere set up
Jim

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Uncle Frank
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Re: FF + mFT
In reply to jim stirling, Apr 14, 2012

I have both FX andu4/3 kits, and agree that they complement each other. I'm trying to keep the u4/3 portion simple. My Oly pl2 isn't a speed burner, and I like its results best if I limit sensitivity to iso800. Because of this, I use fast primes rather than slow zooms. The 20/1.7 + 45/1.8 combo serves most of my photographic interests. For specialty stuff I have two vintage manual focus primes in my u4/3 kit... the 55/3.5 micro-Nikkor for closeups and the Nikon 105/2.5ais as my telephoto. I own lots of lenses for my d700, but for the moment, the ones I'm relying on are the 35/2D, 85/1.4D, and 24-120/4VR.

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jim stirling
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Re: FF + mFT
In reply to Uncle Frank, Apr 14, 2012

Uncle Frank wrote:

I have both FX andu4/3 kits, and agree that they complement each other. I'm trying to keep the u4/3 portion simple. My Oly pl2 isn't a speed burner, and I like its results best if I limit sensitivity to iso800. Because of this, I use fast primes rather than slow zooms. The 20/1.7 + 45/1.8 combo serves most of my photographic interests. For specialty stuff I have two vintage manual focus primes in my u4/3 kit... the 55/3.5 micro-Nikkor for closeups and the Nikon 105/2.5ais as my telephoto. I own lots of lenses for my d700, but for the moment, the ones I'm relying on are the 35/2D, 85/1.4D, and 24-120/4VR.

Hi Frank, I think that a mFT FF combo is about as good as it gets covering a lot of bases
Jim

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Olympus C-8080 Wide Zoom Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF1 Nikon D800 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH3 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 +13 more
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czato
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Re: FF + mFT One beautiful system !
In reply to jim stirling, Apr 14, 2012

I can only agree.

I currently have one APS-C camera (Sony A35), yet when I look and compare it to m4/3 and current second-hand FF Canon 5D prices, I can't help thinking that APS-C is neither here nor there.

My A35 is as thick as 5D with the 50mm prime. And I usually have to step my lenses down to have my image as sharp as I had before with my 4/3rds lenses wide open. So from my perspective the only good thing about APS-C vs. m43 cameras is DR. And FF with standard 50mm prime is thicker only by 2-3cm compared to Nex with 24mm Zeiss or 50mm F1.8. You can currently get a better body with much better AF for the price of new Nex 7 or Fuji X pro 1 (I'm talking about second-hand FF DSLR like A850 or 5D). The weight is the only issue here.

I honestly think/hope that the real surprise will be when Samsung comes out with cheap FF sensor in NX body, since they already have lenses like 85mm, 135mm, 24mm on their roadmap (which will make most sense on FF).

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PerL
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Re: If I had the budget...
In reply to rhlpetrus, Apr 14, 2012

rhlpetrus wrote:

I still own an M3 + Summicron 35, wish Leica would make it easier for older Leica users to go digital RF, I like it, but the price is ridiculous, especially taking into account that the sensor is going to become "old" in just a few years. They should have found a way to make it with sensor/adc module that could be replaced, then I might consider it. But think of how sensors have evolved just in half a decade after the intro of the D3. Now the D800's sensor is at the top, but I bet things will still develop in various directions.

My thinking is that the D3 sensor has hold up amazingly well over the years (still going strong in the D700) which indicates that an investment in FF is more secure than in other formats.

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Renato.
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illy
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Re: FF + mFT One beautiful system !
In reply to jim stirling, Apr 14, 2012

i think a D800and mft combo would suit me down to the ground, the more i see from the D800 the better it looks.......unfortunately i have to many other things to buy, like a big telephoto lens to waggle in front of mft users should i come across any
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