Will the NX20 be the first to reach 1/8000s shutter speed?

Started Apr 11, 2012 | Discussions
Alexramos
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Will the NX20 be the first to reach 1/8000s shutter speed?
Apr 11, 2012

Plus ISO 12800 (hopping a better result), fast processing, 8fps and a very good EVF, the specs would be to the same level than some medium-level DSLR.

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no RAW and no Edition... if is possible...

Samsung NX20
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tecnoworld
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Re: Will the NX20 be the first to reach 1/8000s shutter speed?
In reply to Alexramos, Apr 11, 2012

since it will cost probably even more than a Canon 600d (rebel t3i), a 1 year old DSLR which also feature 1/8000 and ISO 12800, the new NX20 had better have all of that and much more.

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Rehabdoc
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Re: Will the NX20 be the first to reach 1/8000s shutter speed?
In reply to tecnoworld, Apr 11, 2012

...Like a much smaller form factor than a T3i, yes it will.

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tecnoworld
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Re: Will the NX20 be the first to reach 1/8000s shutter speed?
In reply to tecnoworld, Apr 11, 2012

sorry, I meant the 60D, not the 600!

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snake_b
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Re: Will the NX20 be the first to reach 1/8000s shutter speed?
In reply to tecnoworld, Apr 11, 2012

It would be a bit ironic for it to have such a high shutter speed, but saddled down with slow hardware.

Anyhow, throw the rumors out there so they eventually become true. If you're lucky, anything you make up will start being passed on from person to person as if it were true.

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AndricD
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Re: Will the NX20 be the first to reach 1/8000s shutter speed?
In reply to snake_b, Apr 11, 2012

as you do with the negatives.

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jj74e
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Re: Will the NX20 be the first to reach 1/8000s shutter speed?
In reply to AndricD, Apr 11, 2012

AndricD wrote:

as you do with the negatives.

+1

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viking79
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Re: Will the NX20 be the first to reach 1/8000s shutter speed?
In reply to snake_b, Apr 12, 2012

snake_b wrote:

It would be a bit ironic for it to have such a high shutter speed, but saddled down with slow hardware.

Anyhow, throw the rumors out there so they eventually become true. If you're lucky, anything you make up will start being passed on from person to person as if it were true.

Looks like it has updated processors, so it should be substantially faster than the NX200 which is plenty fast with the exception of writing RAW files, but still blazing fast compared to a Sigma or something.

Eric
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Taffy
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Re: Will the NX20 be the first to reach 1/8000s shutter speed? But...
In reply to Alexramos, Apr 12, 2012

When shall we see it? When is the release date?
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Greynerd
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Re: Will the NX20 be the first to reach 1/8000s shutter speed? But...
In reply to Taffy, Apr 12, 2012

I think it was January 2012. There have been previous dates in 2011 but I have lost track.

Taffy wrote:

When shall we see it? When is the release date?
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tecnoworld
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Re: Will the NX20 be the first to reach 1/8000s shutter speed?
In reply to Alexramos, Apr 12, 2012

I hope the NX20 has a big buffer for Raw...at 8fps it would be of no use if it could just keep few pics in the buffer.

At least 30 Raw images should be stored in the fast buffer. Better if 60.

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Billx08
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Will the NX20 be the first to cost $1500?
In reply to tecnoworld, Apr 12, 2012

tecnoworld wrote:

I hope the NX20 has a big buffer for Raw...at 8fps it would be of no use if it could just keep few pics in the buffer.

At least 30 Raw images should be stored in the fast buffer. Better if 60.

If Samsung offers a version that can buffer 60 RAW photos but charges several hundreds of dollars for the extra memory, would you be willing to pay for it? FWIW, Nikon is still selling its memory upgrade for the D3 that doubles the amount of internal SDRAM memory. The application form specifies the many photo formats that the D3 uses and how the buffer upgrade changes the capacities. The ones of most relevance with their before/after capacities are 18 to 43 (12-bit lossless compressed), 16 to 38 (14-bit lossless compressed), 20 to 44 (12-bit compressed), 16 to 37 (14-bit compressed), 17 to 38 (12-bit uncompressed), and 16 to 36 (14-bit uncompressed). The cost for this memory upgrade is USA $500 and CDN $550.

Oops. Too late :

This service will end on July 20, 2011.

http://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/15997/~/d3-digital-slr-camera-buffer-memory-expansion-service
  http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-9312-9538

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tecnoworld
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Re: Will the NX20 be the first to cost $1500?
In reply to Billx08, Apr 12, 2012

so what's the use of 8fps, if the camera can't keep up with that? jpg only?

I know that 1GB of very fast memory (DDR3) is now so cheap for computers. You can buy 4GB for 15 euro or less, so I can't see the point of not installing 2GB of such memory on the camera...

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wictred
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Re: Will the NX20 be the first to cost $1500?
In reply to tecnoworld, Apr 12, 2012

tecnoworld wrote:

so what's the use of 8fps, if the camera can't keep up with that? jpg only?

I know that 1GB of very fast memory (DDR3) is now so cheap for computers. You can buy 4GB for 15 euro or less, so I can't see the point of not installing 2GB of such memory on the camera...

so you're telling us that a 900$ camera should be able to keep up with cameras that cost a couple times more - by just putting a few $ in extra memory in it?

honestly I don't see the problem

Entry level DSLRs have similar or even lower performance. If you expect performance of something like a D3 - and that at 20mp - then the Samsung cameras are probably not for you.

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Billx08
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Re: Will the NX20 be the first to cost $1500?
In reply to tecnoworld, Apr 12, 2012

tecnoworld wrote:

so what's the use of 8fps, if the camera can't keep up with that? jpg only?

I know that 1GB of very fast memory (DDR3) is now so cheap for computers. You can buy 4GB for 15 euro or less, so I can't see the point of not installing 2GB of such memory on the camera...

Computer memory isn't like the fast SDRAM used in cameras that need to do parallel I/O. I believe that unlike sequentlal computer memory accesses, the camera is busy saving images to the buffer, processing them (demosaicing, etc) while simultaneously writing the processed images from the buffer to external Flash memory cards. The problem with the NX200 is that even if it had 10 times as much buffer memory, even if you managed to fill the buffer, when you stop shooting you'd be able to take a coffee break before the camera stopped writing. So you need not only a lot of really fast, compatible memory, the camera's data paths need to be fast enough to justify the cost of the additional memory. I've recently read that Nikon's V1 is able to record 60 full size RAW+JPEG images at 60 frames/sec because it has the ability to process photos at the super high speed of greater than 500mb/sec, and this is the one of the reasons why it only uses a 10mp sensor. If it used a 20mp sensor like the NX200, it would need a 1GB/sec. bandwidth to keep up. That might be enough shut down the camera due to overheating!

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viking79
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Re: Will the NX20 be the first to reach 1/8000s shutter speed?
In reply to tecnoworld, Apr 12, 2012

tecnoworld wrote:

I hope the NX20 has a big buffer for Raw...at 8fps it would be of no use if it could just keep few pics in the buffer.

At least 30 Raw images should be stored in the fast buffer. Better if 60.

Lol, you are funny.

I would say 10 or 15 is plenty, 20 would be class leading. I think Sony NEX 7 is around 11 RAW files for example, another high res APS-C camera.

Eric
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Pierg75
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Re: Will the NX20 be the first to cost $1500?
In reply to Billx08, Apr 12, 2012

Billx08 wrote:

Computer memory isn't like the fast SDRAM used in cameras that need to do parallel I/O. I believe that unlike sequentlal computer memory accesses, the camera is busy saving images to the buffer, processing them (demosaicing, etc) while simultaneously writing the processed images from the buffer to external Flash memory cards.

Reading from the digic specs:

http://www.canon-europe.com/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/Digital_SLR/Technologies_Features/DIGIC_II.asp

It seems they are using normal DDR SDRAM.

Anyway since different years even the normal computers has more than 2 channels to access the RAM, so that they can have two or more concurrent memory accesses.

I think in nx200 the problem is a combination of multiple factors.

Pier

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viking79
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Re: Will the NX20 be the first to reach 1/8000s shutter speed?
In reply to viking79, Apr 12, 2012

viking79 wrote:

tecnoworld wrote:

I hope the NX20 has a big buffer for Raw...at 8fps it would be of no use if it could just keep few pics in the buffer.

At least 30 Raw images should be stored in the fast buffer. Better if 60.

Lol, you are funny.

I would say 10 or 15 is plenty, 20 would be class leading. I think Sony NEX 7 is around 11 RAW files for example, another high res APS-C camera.

Eric

To add to what I said, I think more important than the buffer size is the buffer clearing time, which is a bit slow in the NX200. I think now that they reduced RAW file sizes 25% they also improved buffer clearing time by 25%. Now if in the NX20 they increase the write performance to the SD card by 100% (double it), they could cut the buffer clearing time in half. They could improve it even further by providing RAW compression, both lossy and lossless.

Finally if they made the camera smarter so you could control more while the camera is clearing the buffer it would be just fine, especially in continuous shooting mode where it locks out after a burst. You should be able to fire another burst right away without waiting for the entire buffer to clear.

Eric

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Billx08
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Re: Will the NX20 be the first to cost $1500?
In reply to Pierg75, Apr 12, 2012

Pierg75 wrote:

Billx08 wrote:

Computer memory isn't like the fast SDRAM used in cameras that need to do parallel I/O. I believe that unlike sequentlal computer memory accesses, the camera is busy saving images to the buffer, processing them (demosaicing, etc) while simultaneously writing the processed images from the buffer to external Flash memory cards.

Reading from the digic specs:

http://www.canon-europe.com/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/Digital_SLR/Technologies_Features/DIGIC_II.asp

It seems they are using normal DDR SDRAM.

No, all that it says is that it uses DDR-SDRAM but it says absolutely nothing about its architecture or how many I/O data paths are used to present and receive data from the outside world. That's not part of the SDRAM chip's design, but is definded by its surrounding on-board logic. Would you say that Samsung's design for the NX200 borrows any technological ideas from this description of the Nikon Expeed image processing engine?

Technology/

The Nikon Expeed are based on the Fujitsu Milbeaut imaging processors with 16-bit per pixel[1] multi-core FR-V processor architecture, using a highly parallel architecture which allows efficient hardware use, increasing throughput and reducing power consumption. Each core is using an 8-way 256-bit very long instruction word (VLIW) and is organized in a 4-unit superscalar pipelined architecture giving a peak performance of up to 28 instructions per clock cycle and core. Due to the used 4-way single instruction, multiple data (SIMD) vector processor units, data is processed with up to 112 data-operations per cycle and core.[2]

An on-chip 32-bit Fujitsu RISC (FR) microcontroller core is used to initiate and control all processors, modules and interfaces.[3][4][5][6][7] The Expeed versions designated EI-14x and the Expeed 2 and 3 additionally include a HD video codec engine (FR-V based) and an 16-bit DSP with separate on-chip 4-block harvard RAM which is usable for example for additional image- and audio-processing. The Expeed 3 offers a highly increased speed in its image processor (with even two pipelines on the EI-160), its H.264 video encoder and is based on dual-core ARM architecture.[8][9]

Image sensor interface

CMOS image sensor connection is done by a mixed analog/digital interface which controls the sensor digitally, but receives analog signals with parallel on-chip 14-bit analog-to-digital (A/D) converters. The Expeed variants EI-142 and EI-158 connect all full-frame (FX) digital SLR sensors and additionally the Nikon D300/D300s with 12 simultaneous, parallel analog signal readout channels. Mainly due to a larger settling time it allows improved conversion accuracy compared to the 4-channels in the previous Nikon D2X / D2Xs, Nikon D200 or the Canon EOS 5D Mark II.[10][11][12] 6-channel readout is used on the D90, D5000, D7000 and D5100.

The Expeed 2 allows an increased image sensor readout clock frequency with improved A/D converter accuracy, especially when using 14-bit. Expeed A/D converters like EI-149 or all EI-142 need considerably reduced clock rates (1.8 fps on Nikon D3X) for higher accuracy, limiting for example the D3s dynamic range at low ISOs.[13][14][15] The Expeed 3 variant EI-160, first used in the Nikon 1 series, connects a data stream with 24 digital channels (bus), using A/D converters integrated on the image sensor chip.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expeed

Anyway since different years even the normal computers has more than 2 channels to access the RAM, so that they can have two or more concurrent memory accesses.

And technology like that in a D3 might make it even slower than the NX200.

I think in nx200 the problem is a combination of multiple factors.

Agreed. Here's Nikon's EXPEED motherboard used in the D700, which if I recall correctly, has 1/2 the CPUs and/or channels of the D3.

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Coldamus
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Can you give describe how you use continuous shooting?
In reply to tecnoworld, Apr 12, 2012

tecnoworld wrote:

I hope the NX20 has a big buffer for Raw...at 8fps it would be of no use if it could just keep few pics in the buffer.

At least 30 Raw images should be stored in the fast buffer. Better if 60.

Could you (or anyone else in this discussion) please describe the circumstances in which you use continuous shooting mode.

I ask because, in a lifetime of photography, I have only ever used continuous mode once or twice and have rarely felt the need for it. I might, on occasion, fire off two or three consecutive single shots when shooting moving animals or aircraft in flight for instance but that's about all.

I do remember an instance when I tried continuous shooting. It was at a private zoo and the trainer was about to feed a tiger. I had a Pentax SF7 flim camera with built-in motor drive. When the trainer held up some meat on a stick for the tiger, I fired off a few shots, "ka-choong, ka-choong, ka-choong, ka-choong!". Everyone, including the tiger, turned around and gave me a dirty look as if to say "Who's that tosser?"

I recognise that everyone has different photographic needs but most of the images I see posted here are landscapes, street shots, people and pet portraits, architectural shots, macros, birds, abstracts, etc. Where does the continuous shooting come in? Are you trying to catch a particular expression or pose?

Very few people would choose a camera without an ovf for action sequences. I am wondering whether the fps and buffer size issues are more about bragging rights than practicality.

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