Canon or Nikon...who will be first to

Started Apr 10, 2012 | Discussions
jonrobertp
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Canon or Nikon...who will be first to
Apr 10, 2012

to make a small slr...ie body max wt. 20 oz, and a minimum of 15 AF points; min. 4 fps...
Nikon, or Canon ? I have lenses for both...so...let 'er rip.

ie. Nik D5200 or Can. T4i ???

My guess...Nikon...seems to have been a bit more aggressive in AF points in the last 4 yrs. But hey, I'd be interested.

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Re: Canon or Nikon...who will be first to
In reply to jonrobertp, Apr 10, 2012

After buying the Canon T2i (550D) DSLR camera, I'd be interested if Canon would make more relatively lightweight EF-S lenses like the rumored 70-400mm IS lens. I also have Olympus DSLR cameras and lenses. I like the lighter gear.

So the winner between Canon and Nikon is whoever comes up with affordable, high quality, lightweight DSLR cameras and lenses...well...other brands are welcome too...to compete with this trend towards smaller photographic equipment.

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tko
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uhm, why?
In reply to jonrobertp, Apr 10, 2012

A Xsi or similar is already under 20 oz, 3.5-3.7 FPS, 9 AF points. So, two out of three requirements are met.

Are an extra 6 AF points worth it to you? What would you do with them that you can't do already w/an entry level camera?

jonrobertp wrote:

to make a small slr...ie body max wt. 20 oz, and a minimum of 15 AF points; min. 4 fps...
Nikon, or Canon ? I have lenses for both...so...let 'er rip.

ie. Nik D5200 or Can. T4i ???

My guess...Nikon...seems to have been a bit more aggressive in AF points in the last 4 yrs. But hey, I'd be interested.
--

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jonrobertp
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Re: uhm, why?
In reply to tko, Apr 10, 2012

What I'd like is much different than is available now.

About 18 oz body, 4-5 fps , viewfinder like the D90, about 15-20 megs,
iso and NR as good as the G1X or better, and
MOST important

better AF. My D7000 has decent af at 39 pts, and it IS useful...Not all shots are best captured with just a central AF point in use.

With the 9 pts of the cheap Canons, I've missed very NB shots that the densely placed pts on the D7k do not miss.

If the centre only af pt. is always only best, then the Cam makers of high end cams must be dumb to put them in there. duh. They are not dumb. It has a very good use. I know, and thats w only 39 af points. Just wish the D7k was smaller and lighter, etc.

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Deleted1929
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Sony ?
In reply to jonrobertp, Apr 11, 2012

20 oz

Keep forgetting you guys live in the dark ages with your Old World Imperial units.

For those of us in the modern world that's about 567g. which is a mere 23g less than the weight of my D5000 including batteries ( the D5100 is 560g ).

and a minimum of 15 AF points; min. 4 fps

11 AF points and 4 fps.

And I need these 3 extra AF points for what dramatic effect ?

I believe some of the Sony SLT models have all three criteria.

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StephenG

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Re: Sony ?
In reply to Deleted1929, Apr 11, 2012

If you lived in the 'modern' world you'd know the D5000 is an entry level cam for similiar users. Just won't cut it for me.

Sony ?? yeah, they are up and coming...but still a distant 3rd...and none of my lenses would fit either.

Looks like you need a bit more --maybe 20 yrs more...shooting experience to appreciate higher end cams..with 51 or more af points...and the D7k is not that, merely semi-pro/enthusiast level. But certainly above a lil 5000. Happy shooting...:)

sjgcit wrote:

20 oz

Keep forgetting you guys live in the dark ages with your Old World Imperial units.

For those of us in the modern world that's about 567g. which is a mere 23g less than the weight of my D5000 including batteries ( the D5100 is 560g ).

and a minimum of 15 AF points; min. 4 fps

11 AF points and 4 fps.

And I need these 3 extra AF points for what dramatic effect ?

I believe some of the Sony SLT models have all three criteria.

-- hide signature --

StephenG

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Re: Sony ?
In reply to Deleted1929, Apr 11, 2012

sjgcit wrote:

and a minimum of 15 AF points; min. 4 fps

11 AF points and 4 fps.

And I need these 3 extra AF points for what dramatic effect ?

I keep forgetting you live in the dark ages where basic math isn't taught in school... For the rest of us in the modern world, 15 - 11 = 4, not 3.

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jonrobertp
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Re: Sony ?
In reply to Biggs23, Apr 11, 2012

Is that the same math you use to do your taxes. ? lol...

Oh if only the enlightened ones of the planet would share their vast knowledge with the rest of us...lol.
Enjoy your sony tv.

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Mako2011
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smaller.....yuk
In reply to jonrobertp, Apr 11, 2012

jonrobertp wrote:

to make a small slr...ie body max wt. 20 oz, and a minimum of 15 AF points; min. 4 fps...
Nikon, or Canon ? I have lenses for both...so...let 'er rip.

ie. Nik D5200 or Can. T4i ???

My guess...Nikon...seems to have been a bit more aggressive in AF points in the last 4 yrs. But hey, I'd be interested.
--

I understand the ideal of lighter, but I find it impracticable for some types of shooting. I often use the 70-200 f2.8 as an all day walk around lens and find when coupled with a light body it's unbalanced. This makes a light body detrimental to solid hand holding and makes for a poor panning combination. Even the D7000 often seems far to light regards good holding form and comfort at times. The only small lens I have is the 50mm f1.8g and that on a D5100 just feels and holds horribly. I can't imagine having to make do with smaller. I find the size of the D300 or D700 closer to perfection. Each his own.

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Deleted1929
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Troll away, kiddo (nt)
In reply to jonrobertp, Apr 11, 2012
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StephenG

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tko
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oh, now we get it
In reply to jonrobertp, Apr 12, 2012

It's not features or performance you're after. Your a connoisseur who won't carry a few extra ounces, nothing but the best for you. You shoot down every one who replied with products that meet the intent of your requirement, but none of them are good enough for you.

Now you suddenly need 51 pts? And you won't accept an entry level cam? And you have 20 years experience, but your number one concern is weight?

Congratulations. I'm sure everyone who tried to help you now regrets it.

jonrobertp wrote:

If you lived in the 'modern' world you'd know the D5000 is an entry level cam for similiar users. Just won't cut it for me.

Sony ?? yeah, they are up and coming...but still a distant 3rd...and none of my lenses would fit either.

Looks like you need a bit more --maybe 20 yrs more...shooting experience to appreciate higher end cams..with 51 or more af points...and the D7k is not that, merely semi-pro/enthusiast level. But certainly above a lil 5000. Happy shooting...:)

sjgcit wrote:

20 oz

Keep forgetting you guys live in the dark ages with your Old World Imperial units.

For those of us in the modern world that's about 567g. which is a mere 23g less than the weight of my D5000 including batteries ( the D5100 is 560g ).

and a minimum of 15 AF points; min. 4 fps

11 AF points and 4 fps.

And I need these 3 extra AF points for what dramatic effect ?

I believe some of the Sony SLT models have all three criteria.

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StephenG

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T3
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In reply to jonrobertp, Apr 12, 2012

Why would they want to? DSLR bodies are already small enough, relative to DSLR lenses. If they want to make smaller bodies, they'll go the mirrorless route, like Olympus did with the OM-D E-M5. That way, they can balance a new smaller-sized camera body with new smaller-sized lenses designed for the new mirrorless body, providing an overall smaller package, rather than just a smaller DSLR body that you still have to hang larger DSLR lenses off of.

You also have to remember that the biggest limiting factor with DSLR size is body thickness, which always has to remain constant due to DSLR lens registration distance. So to make a DSLR body smaller, you have to pare down other areas of the body, like the grip, the viewfinder, and other areas of the body that are integral to the handling and UI of the camera.

jonrobertp wrote:

to make a small slr...ie body max wt. 20 oz, and a minimum of 15 AF points; min. 4 fps...
Nikon, or Canon ? I have lenses for both...so...let 'er rip.

ie. Nik D5200 or Can. T4i ???

My guess...Nikon...seems to have been a bit more aggressive in AF points in the last 4 yrs. But hey, I'd be interested.
--

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jonrobertp
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Re: Why?
In reply to T3, Apr 12, 2012

Good point...which I had not thot of. The body thickness...needed for a given sensor size. Point taken. I guess a recent example might also be the G1X in this regard.

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jonrobertp
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Re: oh, now we get it
In reply to tko, Apr 12, 2012

tko...you are off the mark. I already have entry level cams. As I guess you do too.
If you prefer heavy large gear...fine, then why post here?

I'm after hi-end or at least mid level gear that is light and small. Nothing wrong with that at all. Just a bit hard to make.

If you are totally content with whatever u r using...why post ? go shoot more pix and post them !!

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T3
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No, not a case of "body thickness...needed for a given sensor size."
In reply to jonrobertp, Apr 13, 2012

jonrobertp wrote:

Good point...which I had not thot of. The body thickness...needed for a given sensor size. Point taken. I guess a recent example might also be the G1X in this regard.

No, it's not a case of "body thickness...needed for a given sensor size." Body thickness is limited by the lens registration distance, or "flange focal distance", which is the distance that a lens must be positioned from the film/sensor plane, as initially set by the camera/lens system designers. This distance can not be altered because the lens has to be positioned at this distance to work properly.

Here are the various "flange focal distances" for the various camera/lens systems:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flange_focal_distance

For example, the "flange focal distance" for the Canon EF mount is 44.0mm, the Nikon F mount is 46.50 mm, the Pentax K mount is 45.46 mm. These distances are also large enough to accommodate the reflex mirror that SLR/DSLR cameras use.

But if you are starting from scratch with an entirely new camera/lens system, and you do not have to accommodate for a reflex mirror, you can make the "flange focal distance" much narrower. This is what the mirrorless system designers have done with their new mirrorless systems. The body thickness is much narrower regardless of the given sensor size. For example, the Sony NEX bodies have a much narrower body thickness than the Sony Alpha DSLR's, in spite of the fact that they both use the same APS-C sensor size. That's because Sony NEX lenses are designed to have a shorter "flange focal distance". The Sony NEX E mount is 18mm while the Sony Alpha A mount is 44.50mm-- in spite of using the same APS-C sensor size .

The same is also true of Olympus 4/3 and m4/3 systems. The Olympus 4/3 DSLR system has a "flange focal distance" of 38.67mm, while the Olympus m4/3 mirrorless system has a mount distance of only 19.25mm-- again, in spite of using the same 4/3 sensor size .

So as you can see, it's not "body thickness...needed for a given sensor size". It's actually body thickness needed for a given camera/lens system, as determined by the camera/lens system's "flange focal distance".

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T3
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Re: Sony ?
In reply to jonrobertp, Apr 13, 2012

jonrobertp wrote:

If you lived in the 'modern' world you'd know the D5000 is an entry level cam for similiar users. Just won't cut it for me.

Sony ?? yeah, they are up and coming...but still a distant 3rd...and none of my lenses would fit either.

Looks like you need a bit more --maybe 20 yrs more...shooting experience to appreciate higher end cams..with 51 or more af points...and the D7k is not that, merely semi-pro/enthusiast level. But certainly above a lil 5000. Happy shooting...:)

And yet, in most cases, serious and experienced photographers prefer to use very limited focus points (like the center focus point) rather than just leaving it up to the camera to decide what to focus on. A high density of focus points is good for action focus tracking of fairly isolated subjects (like birds in flight), but they can be a nuisance or hindrance in busier and more cluttered shooting environments, like street shooting, or photojournalism, or wedding pj, where you simply can't leave it up to the camera to know exactly which focus point to use because it can't read your mind! I mostly shoot weddings, and I do it with the center AF point for 95% of my images. The rest of the time, I don't need anywhere close to 51 AF points! With images that have shallow DOF and require very precise focusing, multiple AF points reeks havoc! Experienced photographers know that you only really need one good, reliable AF point.

These images were shot many years ago, on a Canon 10D, which is a far inferior camera to any of today's entry-level DSLRs. And yet, plenty of us wedding photographers were able to shoot countless weddings with it. And even if it did have 51 AF points, I would have switched it to the center AF point because it gives my so better AF control because I know exactly what the camera is going to focus on every time. With "51 or more points" that you claim is so essential, you just never know which one of those "51 or more points" the camera is going to use! Just having the camera select an AF point just a few points to the left or right can mean the difference between a keeper, versus a lost shot. It can mean the difference between getting a shot that correctly focuses on the eyelashes, versus a shot that incorrectly focuses on the tip of someone's nose.

It's pretty obnoxious for you to make a statement like: "Looks like you need a bit more --maybe 20 yrs more...shooting experience to appreciate higher end cams..with 51 or more af points." In fact, it's quite amateurish to think that the a camera is better the more AF points it has. A Leica S2 has just a single cross-hair AF point! And this is on a $28,000 camera. The Hasselblad H4D also only has a single focus point too. I guess these are just "amateur" cameras!

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jonrobertp
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Re: No, not a case of "body thickness...needed for a given sensor size."
In reply to T3, Apr 13, 2012

oh oh...got me again. lol...thx. Good explanation...of course you are right. (can I blame it on weak coffee ? )

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jonrobertp
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In reply to T3, Apr 14, 2012

Some points I agree...ie. wedding shots..but others, nope. The new Nikon and Canon flagships each have more than 50 af points...and I know you would have to agree they are NOT for amateurs.
Birds in flight...yep...needed all of them

Group lined up perpendicular to me...all the same distance from me...and to shoot fast, with no ONE person smack in the centre, you can/ppl have, incl. me, missed the focus if relying on the ONE centre af point. You know that.

So, curious, how many wedds have you shot ? ...wondering who shot more, you or me ?

T3 wrote:

jonrobertp wrote:

If you lived in the 'modern' world you'd know the D5000 is an entry level cam for similiar users. Just won't cut it for me.

Sony ?? yeah, they are up and coming...but still a distant 3rd...and none of my lenses would fit either.

Looks like you need a bit more --maybe 20 yrs more...shooting experience to appreciate higher end cams..with 51 or more af points...and the D7k is not that, merely semi-pro/enthusiast level. But certainly above a lil 5000. Happy shooting...:)

And yet, in most cases, serious and experienced photographers prefer to use very limited focus points (like the center focus point) rather than just leaving it up to the camera to decide what to focus on. A high density of focus points is good for action focus tracking of fairly isolated subjects (like birds in flight), but they can be a nuisance or hindrance in busier and more cluttered shooting environments, like street shooting, or photojournalism, or wedding pj, where you simply can't leave it up to the camera to know exactly which focus point to use because it can't read your mind! I mostly shoot weddings, and I do it with the center AF point for 95% of my images. The rest of the time, I don't need anywhere close to 51 AF points! With images that have shallow DOF and require very precise focusing, multiple AF points reeks havoc! Experienced photographers know that you only really need one good, reliable AF point.

These images were shot many years ago, on a Canon 10D, which is a far inferior camera to any of today's entry-level DSLRs. And yet, plenty of us wedding photographers were able to shoot countless weddings with it. And even if it did have 51 AF points, I would have switched it to the center AF point because it gives my so better AF control because I know exactly what the camera is going to focus on every time. With "51 or more points" that you claim is so essential, you just never know which one of those "51 or more points" the camera is going to use! Just having the camera select an AF point just a few points to the left or right can mean the difference between a keeper, versus a lost shot. It can mean the difference between getting a shot that correctly focuses on the eyelashes, versus a shot that incorrectly focuses on the tip of someone's nose.

It's pretty obnoxious for you to make a statement like: "Looks like you need a bit more --maybe 20 yrs more...shooting experience to appreciate higher end cams..with 51 or more af points." In fact, it's quite amateurish to think that the a camera is better the more AF points it has. A Leica S2 has just a single cross-hair AF point! And this is on a $28,000 camera. The Hasselblad H4D also only has a single focus point too. I guess these are just "amateur" cameras!

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T3
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Re: Sony ?
In reply to jonrobertp, Apr 14, 2012

jonrobertp wrote:

Some points I agree...ie. wedding shots..but others, nope. The new Nikon and Canon flagships each have more than 50 af points...and I know you would have to agree they are NOT for amateurs.
Birds in flight...yep...needed all of them

Group lined up perpendicular to me...all the same distance from me...and to shoot fast, with no ONE person smack in the centre, you can/ppl have, incl. me, missed the focus if relying on the ONE centre af point. You know that.

So, curious, how many wedds have you shot ? ...wondering who shot more, you or me ?

Clearly from the way you speak and describe your shooting, it doesn't sound like you've shot that many weddings! LOL!!!

Sorry, but most of us wedding pros rely mainly on a very limited number of focus points because it really often uncertain which one of those 50+ focus points will lock onto any point in an image. Most serious, advanced shooters want control over their image. They don't want to just point, let the camera decide what to focus on, and shoot! That's why cameras like the Leica S2 and Hasselblad H4D all have just one central focus point. Yes, flagship Canons and Nikons do have lots of focus points. But keep in mind that we don't always keep all of those focus points active. We narrow it down to a far smaller number of active AF points. That's why these cameras allow you to do so.

Having 50+ focus points is a lot like having ISO 12,800. Just because your camera has ISO 12,800 does not mean you are always going to shoot at ISO 12,800. Likewise, just because a camera has 50+ focus points doesn't mean you're always going to shoot with all those points active. Using ISO 12,800, or using all 50+ AF points, both have their downsides. In the case of 12,800, the downside is diminished image quality; in the case of using all 50+ AF points, the downside is not really knowing which of those 50+ AF points will lock on, so you have less focus control. That's why mos shooters will typically shoot at lower ISO speeds, and most shooters will shoot with a lower number of active AF points.

The same principle applies to being able to limit the auto ISO range. A lot of us prefer to set the auto ISO to drift within a certain range, because it gives us more control over what the camera is doing. For example, we can limit the auto ISO range to be from ISO 100-800 or 100-1600. We don't want the camera to randomly shoot up to ISO 6400 or 12,800. Likewise, limiting the number of active AF points also is a means of giving us more control over what the camera is doing. We want to limit where the camera is going to lock onto focus by limiting the number of active focus points. We don't want to have the camera randomly focus anywhere in the image!

As for your statement, "Group lined up perpendicular to me...all the same distance from me...and to shoot fast, with no ONE person smack in the centre, you can/ppl have, incl. me, missed the focus if relying on the ONE centre af point. You know that."....

Clearly, you've never heard of the focus-lock-recompose method. There is no need for someone to be "smack in the centre" if you use the focus-lock-recompose method. And there is no reason why any experienced photographer should mis-focus this shot, even if the did have just one focus point! Clearly, you don't seem to be very experience in photography! Anyone who thinks that they are going to mis-focus this shot because they think they need "ONE person smack in the centre" in order to focus correctly clearly doesn't have much experience with photography. Again, keep in mind that high end cameras like the Leica S2 and Hasselblad H4D have only one central AF point. And obviously, anyone who is going to use any of these cameras isn't going to say, "but...but...but...I don't have ONE person smack in the centre! I'm going to mis-focus the shot!"

In all my years of wedding shooting, I've almost always shot using a single active center AF point for almost all of my images. Why? Because it gives you the most precise control over which point in an image the camera will focus on.

To give you a clear example of the precise control single-point AF is, take a look at the two images below. I was shooting with my Canon 35/1.4L at or near wide open, for extremely shallow depth of field. I focused on the child's right upper eyelashes , locking focus and recomposing each time. Each image was shot just seconds apart. The focus is so sharp and precise, you can count each eyelash. You are simply not going to be able to get this kind of precise focus control if you just let 50+ AF points decide where to focus for you! And this is why cameras like the Leica S2 and Hasselblad H4D all have just one central focus points, and why so many experienced photographers only use a limited number of active focus points or manually select which focus point is going to be active: precision control over where the camera is going to focus!

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jonrobertp
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In reply to T3, Apr 14, 2012

lol...I'm well aware of all the details you mentioned..:)...but you didn't answer my question...or did I miss it..:) How many wedds have you shot ?

T3 wrote:

jonrobertp wrote:

Some points I agree...ie. wedding shots..but others, nope. The new Nikon and Canon flagships each have more than 50 af points...and I know you would have to agree they are NOT for amateurs.
Birds in flight...yep...needed all of them

Group lined up perpendicular to me...all the same distance from me...and to shoot fast, with no ONE person smack in the centre, you can/ppl have, incl. me, missed the focus if relying on the ONE centre af point. You know that.

So, curious, how many wedds have you shot ? ...wondering who shot more, you or me ?

Clearly from the way you speak and describe your shooting, it doesn't sound like you've shot that many weddings! LOL!!!

Sorry, but most of us wedding pros rely mainly on a very limited number of focus points because it really often uncertain which one of those 50+ focus points will lock onto any point in an image. Most serious, advanced shooters want control over their image. They don't want to just point, let the camera decide what to focus on, and shoot! That's why cameras like the Leica S2 and Hasselblad H4D all have just one central focus point. Yes, flagship Canons and Nikons do have lots of focus points. But keep in mind that we don't always keep all of those focus points active. We narrow it down to a far smaller number of active AF points. That's why these cameras allow you to do so.

Having 50+ focus points is a lot like having ISO 12,800. Just because your camera has ISO 12,800 does not mean you are always going to shoot at ISO 12,800. Likewise, just because a camera has 50+ focus points doesn't mean you're always going to shoot with all those points active. Using ISO 12,800, or using all 50+ AF points, both have their downsides. In the case of 12,800, the downside is diminished image quality; in the case of using all 50+ AF points, the downside is not really knowing which of those 50+ AF points will lock on, so you have less focus control. That's why mos shooters will typically shoot at lower ISO speeds, and most shooters will shoot with a lower number of active AF points.

The same principle applies to being able to limit the auto ISO range. A lot of us prefer to set the auto ISO to drift within a certain range, because it gives us more control over what the camera is doing. For example, we can limit the auto ISO range to be from ISO 100-800 or 100-1600. We don't want the camera to randomly shoot up to ISO 6400 or 12,800. Likewise, limiting the number of active AF points also is a means of giving us more control over what the camera is doing. We want to limit where the camera is going to lock onto focus by limiting the number of active focus points. We don't want to have the camera randomly focus anywhere in the image!

As for your statement, "Group lined up perpendicular to me...all the same distance from me...and to shoot fast, with no ONE person smack in the centre, you can/ppl have, incl. me, missed the focus if relying on the ONE centre af point. You know that."....

Clearly, you've never heard of the focus-lock-recompose method. There is no need for someone to be "smack in the centre" if you use the focus-lock-recompose method. And there is no reason why any experienced photographer should mis-focus this shot, even if the did have just one focus point! Clearly, you don't seem to be very experience in photography! Anyone who thinks that they are going to mis-focus this shot because they think they need "ONE person smack in the centre" in order to focus correctly clearly doesn't have much experience with photography. Again, keep in mind that high end cameras like the Leica S2 and Hasselblad H4D have only one central AF point. And obviously, anyone who is going to use any of these cameras isn't going to say, "but...but...but...I don't have ONE person smack in the centre! I'm going to mis-focus the shot!"

In all my years of wedding shooting, I've almost always shot using a single active center AF point for almost all of my images. Why? Because it gives you the most precise control over which point in an image the camera will focus on.

To give you a clear example of the precise control single-point AF is, take a look at the two images below. I was shooting with my Canon 35/1.4L at or near wide open, for extremely shallow depth of field. I focused on the child's right upper eyelashes , locking focus and recomposing each time. Each image was shot just seconds apart. The focus is so sharp and precise, you can count each eyelash. You are simply not going to be able to get this kind of precise focus control if you just let 50+ AF points decide where to focus for you! And this is why cameras like the Leica S2 and Hasselblad H4D all have just one central focus points, and why so many experienced photographers only use a limited number of active focus points or manually select which focus point is going to be active: precision control over where the camera is going to focus!

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