GF5 - Is it a new 12M sensor?

Started Apr 5, 2012 | Discussions
goshigoo
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GF5 - Is it a new 12M sensor?
Apr 5, 2012

the ISO performance should be even better than GX1/G3's 16M sensor if it is using the same technology since it has lower pixel count?

Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF5 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX1
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Wellington100
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Re: GF5 - Is it a new 12M sensor?
In reply to goshigoo, Apr 5, 2012

goshigoo wrote:

the ISO performance should be even better than GX1/G3's 16M sensor if it is using the same technology since it has lower pixel count?

Pixel count has nothing to do with ISO, they are mutually exclusive. If it has the same crappy dynamic range as the GF3 then it is the old sensor.

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Knight Palm
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Yes: GF5 - It has a new 12.1MP sensor!
In reply to goshigoo, Apr 5, 2012

Exactly, if you talk per pixel. However, given the same technology, you've got a larger resolution picture with the 16 MP sensor.

But for video, reducing to full HD, is an easier task with the newer sensor, so it might actually be so that the GF5 is a better video camera than the predecessors G3 & GX1.

Expect also Olympus to deploy this new generation sensor technology at the 12.1 MP level, for their consumer level cameras.

A new sensor generation will live about three years, so expect and appreciate this level for the upcoming period.

Ref :

goshigoo wrote:

the ISO performance should be even better than GX1/G3's 16M sensor if it is using the same technology since it has lower pixel count?

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tinternaut
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Re: I wouldn't put it past Panasonic to peddle the old sensor
In reply to goshigoo, Apr 5, 2012

They have form. And they seem to live on an entirely different planet to Sony.

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Franka T.L.
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Well that's the $599.00 Question
In reply to goshigoo, Apr 5, 2012

You know every time they have a new camera, they say its its a got a new sensor, but it might really mean its a tweaked version of the old. This NEW 12MP inside the GF5 is no different.

it can be a totally new one ( which I really doubt ), or
it can be tweaked revision to the old 12MP, or
it can be a version of their 16MP technology put into a sensor with fewer pixel.

There is more info on that in Panasonic's product page on their home market and it kind of read like the last one but it can also mean a hybrid, using the A/D and inbuild signaling part of the GX-1's 16MP employed on the 12MP platform. No mention about the actual sensor site whether its based on the old fab or the new one.

Panasonic themselves claim a 1/3 reduction of noise on the GX-1 vs that of the GF-2 and a 40% reduction vs the GF-3 on the GF-5, and since GF-2 and GF-3 essentially perform the same ( sensor level ) that would suggest the GF-5 would have a slightly better RAW capture than the GX-1. Upon that also all the other imaging hardware specific and signaling NR on the GX-1 is also employed on the GF-5 including the 3CPU setup but both claim ISO up to 12800 so I wager Panasonic recognize that the advantage ( if there ) is perhaps still not enough to call it a stop better.

So without any real data and real field shoot to go with, The info would suggest the GF-5 would likely perform on par as the GX-1 ( RAW ) and in fact if Panasonic marketing is correct, the GF-5 would have a slight edge over the GX-1 in the RAW regarding the clarity of capture ( Noise )

  • Franka -

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Jogger
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yes it is
In reply to goshigoo, Apr 5, 2012

its new in the same way that the 12mp in the EP3 was new.. which also replaced the new 12mp sensor in the E5....

goshigoo wrote:

the ISO performance should be even better than GX1/G3's 16M sensor if it is using the same technology since it has lower pixel count?

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Xellz
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Re: GF5 - Is it a new 12M sensor?
In reply to goshigoo, Apr 5, 2012

There are no completely new sensors, they all just evolve little by little. Taking in some parts from previous generations. At least unless technology will change completely.

12mp is a good move in right direction, but still no iso 100 in sight. Would be nice, if they start thinking about base iso DR a bit more. Would be enough at least near canon aps-c level But oh well, still enjoying my rather new toy, which is G3

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dr_elis
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Re: New cam - new sensor
In reply to Franka T.L., Apr 5, 2012

Franka T.L. wrote:

You know every time they have a new camera, they say its its a got a new sensor

That´s more the Oly way of doing things. Afaik Panasonic didn´t claim to offer a new sensor when the GF3 was introduced. I take this as encouragement as far as the potential merits of the GF5 are concerned.

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DirkL
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Re: Well that's the $599.00 Question
In reply to Franka T.L., Apr 5, 2012

Franka T.L. wrote:

Panasonic themselves claim a 1/3 reduction of noise on the GX-1 vs that of the GF-2 and a 40% reduction vs the GF-3 on the GF-5, and since GF-2 and GF-3 essentially perform the same ( sensor level ) that would suggest the GF-5 would have a slightly better RAW capture than the GX-1.

Why in RAW and not just jpeg? If the reduction is because

"a combination 3DNR (3D Noise Reduction) and MNR (Multi-process Noise Reduction)"

then it sound like extensive processing to me, unlikely that this would be applied on the raw file.
But who knows?

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DirkL
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Re: GF5 - Is it a new 12M sensor?
In reply to Wellington100, Apr 5, 2012

Wellington100 wrote:

goshigoo wrote:

the ISO performance should be even better than GX1/G3's 16M sensor if it is using the same technology since it has lower pixel count?

Pixel count has nothing to do with ISO, they are mutually exclusive. If it has the same crappy dynamic range as the GF3 then it is the old sensor.

If it's using some of the 'G3-technology', then it has a lower pixel count on the same sensor area as the G3 sensor - ergo a lower pixel density, or in other words, larger pixels. And larger pixels should affect ISO performance.

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PhotographicPhil
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Re: GF5 - Is it a new 12M sensor?
In reply to goshigoo, Apr 5, 2012

The GF5 is their cheap m43 camera and they will want to keep it that way. If they wanted to fit a brand new sensor (to the GF line) they they would have fitted their existing 16mp sensor as there would be no additional development costs and it would be (arguably) better than the sensors in the equivalent Olympus model. Since they are still fitting a 12mp sensor, then they are probably using up old stock. They may have modified it slightly, but the development costs will be very low.

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Rehabdoc
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Re: GF5 - Is it a new 12M sensor?
In reply to PhotographicPhil, Apr 5, 2012

PhotographicPhil wrote:

The GF5 is their cheap m43 camera and they will want to keep it that way. If they wanted to fit a brand new sensor (to the GF line) they they would have fitted their existing 16mp sensor as there would be no additional development costs and it would be (arguably) better than the sensors in the equivalent Olympus model. Since they are still fitting a 12mp sensor, then they are probably using up old stock. They may have modified it slightly, but the development costs will be very low.

Heh, I wonder how many GF5 and GF3X kits will be sold just so the owner can sell off the body and keep the discounted pancake zoom.

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Jeremy_T
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Re: GF5 - Is it a new 12M sensor?
In reply to DirkL, Apr 5, 2012

DirkL wrote:

If it's using some of the 'G3-technology', then it has a lower pixel count on the same sensor area as the G3 sensor - ergo a lower pixel density, or in other words, larger pixels. And larger pixels should affect ISO performance.

Which is a really big if of course, it could just be the same sensor as the GF3/PENs.

The camera is perplexing from a marketing perspective unless they did improve the sensor substantially. Otherwise the only obvious upgrade to the GF3 is the stereo mic, which is hardly worthy of a refresh in and of itself. ISO 12800 is just stupid without a pretty big sensor improvement, but hey - the PENs have it too.

It seems weird to me that they'd release a new 12MP sensor before releasing a new flagship sensor, but Panasonic does a lot of weird things.

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SHood
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IR Comments on Sensor changes
In reply to goshigoo, Apr 5, 2012

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/panasonic-gf5/panasonic-gf5A.HTM

"Compared to that in the GF3, size and resolution are unchanged, but the frontside circuitry now has a lower profile and is better located, so it doesn't block as much light. That should translate to better sensitivity / noise characteristics. "

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Aleo Veuliah
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Re: GF5 - Is it a new 12M sensor?
In reply to DirkL, Apr 5, 2012

DirkL wrote:

Wellington100 wrote:

goshigoo wrote:

the ISO performance should be even better than GX1/G3's 16M sensor if it is using the same technology since it has lower pixel count?

Pixel count has nothing to do with ISO, they are mutually exclusive. If it has the same crappy dynamic range as the GF3 then it is the old sensor.

If it's using some of the 'G3-technology', then it has a lower pixel count on the same sensor area as the G3 sensor - ergo a lower pixel density, or in other words, larger pixels. And larger pixels should affect ISO performance.

True, most be a better sensor, no wonders here, it a recent camera, they have improved image quality

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Aleo Veuliah
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Re: GF5 - Is it a new 12M sensor?
In reply to goshigoo, Apr 5, 2012

Yes a new sensor and a new Venus engine

"The image processor Venus Engine is also renovated for the DMC-GF5. With a combination of 3DNR (3D Noise Reduction) and MNR (Multi-process Noise Reduction), both bright area and dark area are faithfully reproduced with minimum noise in high sensitivity image recording*."

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safaridon
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Re: GF5 - Is it a new 12M sensor?
In reply to goshigoo, Apr 5, 2012

goshigoo wrote:

the ISO performance should be even better than GX1/G3's 16M sensor if it is using the same technology since it has lower pixel count?

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Very surprising to not see more interest in this topic. The GF5 shows up with a new 12 mp sensor with IQ possibly very much like the E-M5 or even better and there is little mention while with the E-M5 there were literally hundreds of posts regarding the topic. Go figure?

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rocklobster
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Microlens change as well...
In reply to SHood, Apr 17, 2012

I read somewhere that the microlenses have been changed to concentrate more light on each pixel but thats hardly a new sensor. I wouldn't expect a big change - not to the same level of high ISO performance of the 16Mp sensor.

But, better than no change at all.

Cheers

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MadsR
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Re: GF5 - Is it a new 12M sensor?
In reply to goshigoo, Apr 17, 2012

Who knows?

We will have to wait and find out... Either it is "new" like the Olympus PEN3 or it is new, with a new design and genuinely better image quality... For now, it is impossible to tell, we have to wait for the thing to be available, so someone can shoot some test shots either of nice scenery so we can compare by eyes, or some test chart and mangle them in whatever software they like to give us a number... (Both will usually happen quite fast... The last with a range of different results but generally pointing in the same direction.

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rocklobster
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Incremental changes more likely
In reply to safaridon, May 7, 2012

As I posted earlier, there is a change to microlenses and noise processing which I doubt would take it anywhere near the E-M5 - perhaps half a stop improvement, but any improvement on Panasonic's NR algorithm would be welcome anyway.

I don't put paid to the idea that at 12Mp the pixel size is bigger than the 16Mp sensor so it is going to be better by default - its just a sensor upgrade not a completely new design.

Cheers

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