(7D) Is this a 'reasonable' amount of noise for ISO 200?

Started Apr 4, 2012 | Discussions
RobinGO
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(7D) Is this a 'reasonable' amount of noise for ISO 200?
Apr 4, 2012

hi all - about 4 months ago i moved from the EOS Rebel line (T2i) to a 7D (primarily for the faster shot times, for sports, and the micro focus adjustment).

i've been very happy with the camera, but the images seem very 'noisy' even at low ISO's (200, etc). not trying to start a flame war (i know there's a lot of discussion about 7D noise), but i can't tell if my camera is behaving as expected, or i should send it back to Canon.

so the test shot: taken this past sunday from Twin Peaks in San Francisco, the full image is a pano made in CS6 (tiny tweak to pp sharpen and punch up the contrast, nothing else) which you can see here:

http://sonovista.smugmug.com/Landscapes/DPreview-Test-Photos/22274469_xWfmJ5# !i=1779657524&k=rrfxG7P

and here's a 100% crop showing the noise i see in almost every shot i take

all advice most welcome!
robin
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Canon EOS 7D
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RobinGO
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Re: (7D) Is this a 'reasonable' amount of noise for ISO 200?
In reply to RobinGO, Apr 4, 2012

(to help those who are trying to help me, i've also uploaded a totally 'unprocessed' jpeg (okay, there's that!) of the frame i've taken the clip of in the pano, into the same smugmug gallery - i brought the .cr2 file into Preview on my mac (Lion) and then exported as a best quality jpeg, nothing else (so you can see the lack of contrast in the original shot) - EXIF data is everywhere, and in case anyone is interested, the lens is the Tamron 70-300 Di SP VC, which is turning out to be an outstanding piece of glass)
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SelNZ
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Re: (7D) Is this a 'reasonable' amount of noise for ISO 200?
In reply to RobinGO, Apr 4, 2012

The magic word is Lightroom. The 7D and Lightroom were made for each other
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birdbrain
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Re: (7D) Is this a 'reasonable' amount of noise for ISO 200?
In reply to RobinGO, Apr 4, 2012

Try processing the RAW in DPP, even if you do just basic processing then convert to 16 bit TIFF and see if the noise is the same.
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RobinGO
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Re: (7D) Is this a 'reasonable' amount of noise for ISO 200?
In reply to birdbrain, Apr 4, 2012

thanks for the suggestion, phil!

i've actually been having trouble getting a 'noise free' image with my 7D regardless of the Raw converter i use... my usual work flow has been DxO ('cause i like their lens modules) but that was giving me terrible grain... i then tried Camera One (from Phase One) and that was no better... DPP is the same, as is ACR. i -did- try a preview version of Lightroom 4 and that -seemed- to be a tad bit better, but i can't imagine there's a different raw engine in LR4 than there is in CS6, and in any event, given my experience in processing raw images going back to my 20D, i can't figure out why this camera is so different (unless its actually out of spec with a bad sensor)

i'm happy to provide the CR2 file if anyone wants to process it in a different raw processor and see what we can get.

thanks again!
robin
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Jerry-astro
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Doesn't look right to me
In reply to RobinGO, Apr 4, 2012

Searched for the individual image you mentioned below in your library but had trouble finding it. At first glance the pano appears to be properly exposed, so the noise you're seeing doesn't appear to be due to underexposure (which can quickly bring out additional noise, particularly in shadows). It sure seems to be more noise than I'd expect at ISO 200 and certainly more than I'm seeing at low ISOs on my 7D. Yes, you can clean the noise up in PP, but I'm not sure I'd be all that happy if I had to start with a low ISO image containing that much noise.

I may be missing something important here and I'm sure others will pipe in with their own assessment. Unless you or someone else here can easily root cause a user related issue, you may need to consider sending the camera to Canon for a look see, IMHO.

RobinGO wrote:

(to help those who are trying to help me, i've also uploaded a totally 'unprocessed' jpeg (okay, there's that!) of the frame i've taken the clip of in the pano, into the same smugmug gallery - i brought the .cr2 file into Preview on my mac (Lion) and then exported as a best quality jpeg, nothing else (so you can see the lack of contrast in the original shot) - EXIF data is everywhere, and in case anyone is interested, the lens is the Tamron 70-300 Di SP VC, which is turning out to be an outstanding piece of glass)
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Faintandfuzzy
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In reply to RobinGO, Apr 4, 2012

I don't get that much noise at iso 800 with hard USM. With the slightest bit of NR, my 1600 shots look far better than that. I'm not sure what's up but if you told me that was a 1600iso shot, I may believe it....figuring it wasn't processed well.

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Zee Char
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Re: (7D) Is this a 'reasonable' amount of noise for ISO 200?
In reply to RobinGO, Apr 4, 2012

That is not noise. I have seen that before. Something to do with the conversion settings or the converter itself.

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riknash
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Re: (7D) Is this a 'reasonable' amount of noise for ISO 200?
In reply to RobinGO, Apr 4, 2012

Looks like normal noise from a 7D...

Seriously, yes, please make the RAW file available and I'll certainly run it through DPP and tell you how it compares to my RAW noisy files. Your camera may be defective but maybe not. The noise from your pano looks really bad.

RobinGO wrote:

hi all - about 4 months ago i moved from the EOS Rebel line (T2i) to a 7D (primarily for the faster shot times, for sports, and the micro focus adjustment).

i've been very happy with the camera, but the images seem very 'noisy' even at low ISO's (200, etc). not trying to start a flame war (i know there's a lot of discussion about 7D noise), but i can't tell if my camera is behaving as expected, or i should send it back to Canon.

so the test shot: taken this past sunday from Twin Peaks in San Francisco, the full image is a pano made in CS6 (tiny tweak to pp sharpen and punch up the contrast, nothing else) which you can see here:

http://sonovista.smugmug.com/Landscapes/DPreview-Test-Photos/22274469_xWfmJ5# !i=1779657524&k=rrfxG7P

and here's a 100% crop showing the noise i see in almost every shot i take

all advice most welcome!
robin
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http://www.schnauzerlogic.com - podcast

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RobinGO
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Re: (7D) Is this a 'reasonable' amount of noise for ISO 200?
In reply to riknash, Apr 4, 2012

here's a link to the raw file (you may need to load the URL into your file manager and then unzip):

http://homepage.mac.com/airplayradio/RDG2900.CR2.zip

the unprocessed frame is fairly flat (held the exposure constant across the entire 21 shot pano, so it requires some boosting) but once you do any processing you'll see this pattern. and though i'm asking the question for the first time, today, this has been an issue from the day i got the body, starting at the lowest ISO and getting worse as its increased, natural lighting, flash, regardless of the lens.

to all who have suggested DPP, many thanks - that was the first thing i tried when i got the camera and started having problems with DxO and Camera One... no better and perhaps a bit worse.

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baker123
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Re: (7D) Is this a 'reasonable' amount of noise for ISO 200?
In reply to RobinGO, Apr 5, 2012

I made these 100% crops from your RAW file. None have sharpening or any other adjustment:

ACR, no noise reduction.

This is the above crop after Neat Image with 60% luminance and 50% chrominance reduction.

This has noise reduction from ACR, luminance slider at 25, chrominance slider at 15.

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RobinGO
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Re: (7D) Is this a 'reasonable' amount of noise for ISO 200?
In reply to baker123, Apr 5, 2012

thanks for going through the effort!

it seems to me that the ACR/no NR, is pretty noisy for an ISO200 shot... i agree that the various NR techniques help, but you obviously lose a fair amount of the image detail (that i like, at least)

the challenge is that i don't remember ever feeling this way about my other Canon crop sensor bodies (even the T2i, which has the same sensor as the 7D as i recall)

maybe i'm just sensitive to the particular noise pattern?
but thanks again!
r

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Zee Char
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Re: (7D) Is this a 'reasonable' amount of noise for ISO 200?
In reply to riknash, Apr 5, 2012

The reason I have mentioned this is I have seen PP issues that have messed up images and created those patterns.

100% crop. ISO 3200. LR with Color noise at default of 25 for all 4 images. I just made changes to sharpening and luminance NR. These were taken with my 5D2 but I'm just trying to illustrate what can happen to the background. I can dig up examples with my 7D. I have not imported any 7D flies into LR yet.

Sharpening 25, No NR

Sharpening 25, Lum NR =30

Sharpening 150, Lum NR = 30

Original. Sharpening 25, NR =30

Also what LR offers as well is masking for sharpening. You press the Option Key (for Mac) and slide masking to the right until you achieve edge sharpening so the background is not effected. I'm usually at about 80. For the final full sized image I used this method which is edge sharpening as well.

http://www.earthboundlight.com/phototips/photoshop-really-smart-sharpening.html?search=edge+mask&bool=and

riknash wrote:
Looks like normal noise from a 7D...

Seriously, yes, please make the RAW file available and I'll certainly run it through DPP and tell you how it compares to my RAW noisy files. Your camera may be defective but maybe not. The noise from your pano looks really bad.

RobinGO wrote:

hi all - about 4 months ago i moved from the EOS Rebel line (T2i) to a 7D (primarily for the faster shot times, for sports, and the micro focus adjustment).

i've been very happy with the camera, but the images seem very 'noisy' even at low ISO's (200, etc). not trying to start a flame war (i know there's a lot of discussion about 7D noise), but i can't tell if my camera is behaving as expected, or i should send it back to Canon.

so the test shot: taken this past sunday from Twin Peaks in San Francisco, the full image is a pano made in CS6 (tiny tweak to pp sharpen and punch up the contrast, nothing else) which you can see here:

http://sonovista.smugmug.com/Landscapes/DPreview-Test-Photos/22274469_xWfmJ5# !i=1779657524&k=rrfxG7P

and here's a 100% crop showing the noise i see in almost every shot i take

all advice most welcome!
robin
--

http://sonovista.smugmug.com - photos
http://www.schnauzerlogic.com - podcast

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Zee Char
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Re: (7D) Is this a 'reasonable' amount of noise for ISO 200?
In reply to Zee Char, Apr 5, 2012

7D using LR. NR = 25 colour, 30 and sharpening 25. I cant see those patterns.

Final image sharpened in PS.

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Jerry-astro
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Re: (7D) Is this a 'reasonable' amount of noise for ISO 200?
In reply to RobinGO, Apr 5, 2012

RobinGO wrote:

thanks for going through the effort!

it seems to me that the ACR/no NR, is pretty noisy for an ISO200 shot... i agree that the various NR techniques help, but you obviously lose a fair amount of the image detail (that i like, at least)

the challenge is that i don't remember ever feeling this way about my other Canon crop sensor bodies (even the T2i, which has the same sensor as the 7D as i recall)

maybe i'm just sensitive to the particular noise pattern?
but thanks again!
r

No way is that level of NR for an ISO 200 shot anywhere near normal IMHO. More like what I'd use for ISO 800 or even 1600.

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rickpoole
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Re: (7D) Is this a 'reasonable' amount of noise for ISO 200?
In reply to Jerry-astro, Apr 5, 2012

Robin,

I'm surprised no one else mentioned this yet - the 7D is quite sensitive to exposure value. When I first got my 7D I was very surprised at the amount of noise in the sky even at ISO 100. My XSi had no noise in the sky at ISO 100 and I expected the 7D to be not much different. Under exposed images had a lot of noise even in the highlights. Many people posted that adding about +2/3 of exposure compensation went a long ways towards reducing the noise. Now I shoot almost everything with at least +2/3 EC and there is a lot less noise in the midtones and highlights. There is still some in the shadows but all the noise is easy to deal with using tools like Topaz DeNoise. Noise Ninja, etc.

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Keith Z Leonard
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Re: (7D) Is this a 'reasonable' amount of noise for ISO 200?
In reply to RobinGO, Apr 5, 2012

That is a crazy amount of noise for ISO 200, no way that is normal. If you are seeing that with every shot you may have a camera problem. Might want to call Canon.

Are you sure that you are not doing something in PP that might be causing it? Like trying to sharpen a shot beyond what it can handle? The crop looks like it's from a shot taken through glass of a city with a lot of atmospherics going on. (pollution? fog?) A shot like that usually cannot be made "sharp", play with increasing the contrast a bit, might help with the glass issue.

Anyway, if you get this type of noise with default conversion in DPP/ACR that seems like something is wrong with your camera. Unless this is underexposed a bunch and brought up to create a worst case or something.

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birdbrain
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My take on it.
In reply to RobinGO, Apr 5, 2012

OK now I don't propose to be any sort of expert but the above is my take and it did throw up some things.

First the picture style used 'silkpix' was it called? Did emphasis the blue, it almost made the image look like what I get when I forget to go back to Auto WB after having it on Tungsten then shooting outside

Now the Blue channel is the worst for noise so I think the picture style was not doing you any favours. The image was also a tad underexposed which I lifted in DPP after I altered the picture style to natural. I expect it is now not what you were after but un-processing the image I think has made the noise less noticeable?

One of the main things to remember with the 7D I think, other people may disagree, it is unforgiving of underexposure. In fact you can over expose a little which can be better than underexpose.

The haze over the city seems to have some blue in it and I think that, slight under exposure and the picture style have all given the blue channel a hard time and that has emphasised the noise.

I will now don my flak jacket and hunker down behind the freshly filled sand bags!

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mforbes
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Re: My take on it.
In reply to birdbrain, Apr 5, 2012

Send it back to Canon, or waste precious hours diddling in front of your computer, it is a very simple choice. There have been countless discussions on this and I think at the end of the day we have come to the conclusion that there are some, not every one, but some 7Ds that are sent out of the factory with issues. I know from first hand experience unfortunately. Take care of this problem by sending it to Canon, it is not going to fix itself. It is your choice if you want to invest your time and money in 3rd party software to clean this mess up but you are just putting a band aid on a broken leg, just send it in.

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Tiosabas
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Re: (7D) Is this a 'reasonable' amount of noise for ISO 200?
In reply to RobinGO, Apr 5, 2012

Did you use a CPL filter on these shots? Less expensive brands can cause noise like artifacting in blue skies.

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