Thom comments / I need D700+D800

Started Apr 2, 2012 | Discussions
Denis of Whidbey Island
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Thom comments / I need D700+D800
Apr 2, 2012

Thom Hogan's latest observations reinforce my need to keep the D700 after my D800 arrives. Here's why:

I shoot landscapes for gallery sales. I expect to benefit from the D800's traits at or near base ISO. As a former owner of a number of panoramic film cameras, I look forward to having the option to crop pans out of those 36MP files. Yes, I own and sometimes use a panning bracket but there are times when a single image rules.

I also do real estate and tourism work, which will largely not benefit from the bump in resolution but which often call for higher ISO shooting. File size is also a consideration here. If I sent a set of 36MP JPEGs to a Realtor, it could trigger a 911 call. Crop mode with the D800 would be a waste of my 14-24mm.

If others end up keeping the D700, the resale price may not drop as much as we'd otherwise expect.

YMMV,

Denis
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I have made this letter a rather long one, only because I didn't have the leisure to make it shorter. Blaise Pascal, 1623-1662

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eNo
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Re: Thom comments / I need D700+D800
In reply to Denis of Whidbey Island, Apr 2, 2012

Denis of Whidbey Island wrote:

If others end up keeping the D700, the resale price may not drop as much as we'd otherwise expect.

Well, at least at the outset, that does not seem to be the case (see http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=41101774 ). A few months ago, used D700 bodies were stuck at $2K USD or above, and now, deals are coming up routinely. Maybe the early upgraders will soon disappear, which is one reason I grabbed a 2nd one used right now rather than waiting.

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user_name
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Re: Thom comments / I need D700+D800
In reply to Denis of Whidbey Island, Apr 2, 2012

There is more to this than simply file size of JPEGs.

The D800 already gives you an option to down-sample to 20 mp and 9 mp from the camera.

I am trying to keep my D700 for a backup since I plan to get rid of all the rest of my DX camera gear.

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Zlik
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Re: Thom comments / I need D700+D800
In reply to user_name, Apr 2, 2012

user_name wrote:

There is more to this than simply file size of JPEGs.

The D800 already gives you an option to down-sample to 20 mp and 9 mp from the camera.

I am trying to keep my D700 for a backup since I plan to get rid of all the rest of my DX camera gear.

Yes, and here's a crazy bet: I dare say that a 9 MP jpg out of the D800 has more details than a 12mp jpg out of a D700. Would be interesting to compare that.

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David314
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Small Jpeg
In reply to Denis of Whidbey Island, Apr 2, 2012

Denis of Whidbey Island wrote:

Thom Hogan's latest observations reinforce my need to keep the D700 after my D800 arrives. Here's why:

I also do real estate and tourism work, which will largely not benefit from the bump in resolution but which often call for higher ISO shooting. File size is also a consideration here. If I sent a set of 36MP JPEGs to a Realtor,

So, umm, send a smaller Jpeg?

I'd keep it for 8fps and indoor sports,

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unknown member
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Prices
In reply to Denis of Whidbey Island, Apr 2, 2012

It seems the outfits that actually have the D700 in stock are selling them for 2400 to 2500. I think you can order and wait for one at 2200 (I'm sure there are exceptions). When all new stock is gone the used price should rise, so I would not sell it at the 2000 people are getting for low shutter count D700s. The primary reason, future value aside, is that the camera is worth more than 2000. I would park it in the closet for anything less than 2300, but remember I'm talking about low shutter count of 3000 to 5000.

It is still a wonderful camera, and the file size/pixel density works for a lot of things.

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electric eel
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Re: Prices
In reply to BackInTheGame, Apr 2, 2012

I have my D200 from sometime long long ago, it's worth keeping because it isn't worth selling. The D700 value is difficult to crystal ball into the future, the only full frame that has gone through this cycle is the Canon 5D, that may lend some insight. The Nikon used bodies are almost never in short supply once replaced, anyone that wants a D700 will have access to many in the near and long term.

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Denis of Whidbey Island
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Re: Small Jpeg
In reply to David314, Apr 2, 2012

David314 wrote:

Denis of Whidbey Island wrote:

I also do real estate and tourism work, which will largely not benefit from the bump in resolution but which often call for higher ISO shooting. File size is also a consideration here. If I sent a set of 36MP JPEGs to a Realtor,

So, umm, send a smaller Jpeg?

Perhaps I was not clear. I'd rather keep the D700 for uses that don't need more detail and do benefit from DR holding up at high ISO; don't want to deal with processing then downsizing the larger files when not needed. The real estate photography business is all about efficient workflow.

For those who commented on crop modes, those change the angle of view of the 14-24mm, so not appropriate for the lens I use most.

You may make a different decision based on your shooting and output needs.

I see that my one line about resale value generated more comments than the main thread about using the D700 when it is the more appropriate camera.

Denis
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I have made this letter a rather long one, only because I didn't have the leisure to make it shorter. Blaise Pascal, 1623-1662

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perhort
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Re: Small Jpeg
In reply to Denis of Whidbey Island, Apr 2, 2012

Disregarding the workflow question, DxO Mark scores show that the D800 beats the D700 in terms of DR at all sensitivities. The only camera that beats it are the D4 from iso 800 and onwards, and the D3s from iso 3200 and onwards.

Denis of Whidbey Island wrote:

Perhaps I was not clear. I'd rather keep the D700 for uses that don't need more detail and do benefit from DR holding up at high ISO; don't want to deal with processing then downsizing the larger files when not needed. The real estate photography business is all about efficient workflow.

Denis
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I have made this letter a rather long one, only because I didn't have the leisure to make it shorter. Blaise Pascal, 1623-1662

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thomas2279f
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Re: Thom comments / I need D700+D800
In reply to Denis of Whidbey Island, Apr 2, 2012

I know the D800 has 3 crop modes but be nice if added 2 resize Raw options as well so you have same view of field.

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steddyman
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Re: Thom comments / I need D700+D800
In reply to thomas2279f, Apr 2, 2012

I've asked this in another thread, but the question seems more relevant here.

If you chose size M or S in camera for JPEG, does the resize operation the camera performs (it isn't cropping) give the same benefits as resizing post process?

If it does then just setting RAW+JPEG with a smaller image size should do the trick.
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larrywilson
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Re: Thom comments / I need D700+D800
In reply to steddyman, Apr 2, 2012

You guys that are going to use the d800 in cropped mode for a lot of your photos, do you realize that the cropped view in the viewfinder is smaller than a regular dx camera veiwfinder. I tried crop mode on my d3s and I hate the way it looks, like peering through a peekhole ugh!!! Of course I never use the d3s in cropped mode because it becames a 5mp camera ugh!!!!

Larry

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Red G8R
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Re: Thom comments / I need D700+D800
In reply to larrywilson, Apr 2, 2012

I'm in full agreement with the OP. I'm not sure why so many feel that the D800 is the be all. It's a great high pixel camera but other bodies still have great function.
I say keep both.
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u007
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Re: Thom comments / I need D700+D800
In reply to Denis of Whidbey Island, Apr 2, 2012

Do you not post-process your files at all?

Because if so, why not just shoot the full 36mp and re-size to whatever you want to send your clients? It's one more step in the post-processing protocol. No big deal at all.

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u007
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Re: Thom comments / I need D700+D800
In reply to larrywilson, Apr 2, 2012

larrywilson wrote:

You guys that are going to use the d800 in cropped mode for a lot of your photos, do you realize that the cropped view in the viewfinder is smaller than a regular dx camera veiwfinder. I tried crop mode on my d3s and I hate the way it looks, like peering through a peekhole ugh!!! Of course I never use the d3s in cropped mode because it becames a 5mp camera ugh!!!!

Larry

Yup. I really don't understand the "DX mode" people. It alters the focal length of all your lenses, makes the effective area of viewfinder much smaller. And I tried it once with my Sony a850 (25mp, same as a D3X) and hated it. I can't see ANY benefit at all over shooting the full frame image and cropping later.

Maybe if you never post-process your files and have to hand the SD card straight to something? Other than that, if you put your files into lightroom or photoshop, there is zero reason to use DX mode.

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Ryder
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Re: Thom comments / I need D700+D800
In reply to Denis of Whidbey Island, Apr 2, 2012

Denis of Whidbey Island wrote

I also do real estate and tourism work, which will largely not benefit from the bump in resolution but which often call for higher ISO shooting. File size is also a consideration here. If I sent a set of 36MP JPEGs to a Realtor, it could trigger a 911 call. Crop mode with the D800 would be a waste of my 14-24mm.

You don't need file size for RE but the increased dynamic range and ability to pull detail out of shadows might be very useful. If you run 6 exposures through PM of course it won't make a dif.

If you sent any original files to an agent they would faint so there is nothing new there.

Cheers,

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Craig Ryder

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David314
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Perhaps you don't understand
In reply to Denis of Whidbey Island, Apr 2, 2012

Denis of Whidbey Island wrote:

David314 wrote:

Denis of Whidbey Island wrote:

I also do real estate and tourism work, which will largely not benefit from the bump in resolution but which often call for higher ISO shooting. File size is also a consideration here. If I sent a set of 36MP JPEGs to a Realtor,

So, umm, send a smaller Jpeg?

Perhaps I was not clear. I'd rather keep the D700 for uses that don't need more detail and do benefit from DR holding up at high ISO; don't want to deal with processing then downsizing the larger files when not needed. The real estate photography business is all about efficient workflow.

The d800 beats the d700 in every benchmark, including high Iso

Shoot with 9mpix jpeg mode

And btw Thomas didn't say keep the d700 too, he simply said it it a good camera

Now if you said you got great images out of the d700 And didn't need to buy the d800, i would agree

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Luke Kaven
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Re: Thom comments / I need D700+D800
In reply to Denis of Whidbey Island, Apr 2, 2012

Denis of Whidbey Island wrote:

Thom Hogan's latest observations reinforce my need to keep the D700 after my D800 arrives. Here's why:

I shoot landscapes for gallery sales. I expect to benefit from the D800's traits at or near base ISO. As a former owner of a number of panoramic film cameras, I look forward to having the option to crop pans out of those 36MP files. Yes, I own and sometimes use a panning bracket but there are times when a single image rules.

I also do real estate and tourism work, which will largely not benefit from the bump in resolution but which often call for higher ISO shooting. File size is also a consideration here. If I sent a set of 36MP JPEGs to a Realtor, it could trigger a 911 call. Crop mode with the D800 would be a waste of my 14-24mm.

If others end up keeping the D700, the resale price may not drop as much as we'd otherwise expect.

The D700 doesn't have any advantage in low light over the D800. Quite the opposite in fact. The low light advantage goes to the D3s/D4, but only at ISO12800 and above. And the only reason for this is not the resolution or response of the D800 sensor, but due to the intrusion of thermal noise in the D800 files over ISO6400. Up to any including ISO6400 however, I would pick the D800 for low light quality -- all other considerations of practical workflow and handling aside.

Thom is being a bit misleading.

"But there's a tangible difference between a camera that takes three or four ISO boosts to lose a stop of dynamic range (D4) and one that loses nearly a stop of dynamic range per ISO boost (D800). While the D800 starts with a better dynamic range than the D4, it quickly loses that advantage as you boost ISO. Eventually it loses its pixel count advantage, too."

When Thom says that the D3s/D4 takes three or four ISO boosts to lose a stop of DR, he neglects to point out that the D3s/D4 are read-noise limited at anything ISO800 or below. They have run out of dynamic range prematurely, whereas the D800 does not.

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perhort
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Re: Thom comments / I need D700+D800
In reply to Luke Kaven, Apr 3, 2012

Are you suggesting that the DxO Mark DR measurements are misleading? The DxO Mark scores show that the D4 has better dynamic range than the D800 from iso 800 and onwards, and the D3s from iso 3200 and onwards.

Luke Kaven wrote:

Denis of Whidbey Island wrote:

Thom Hogan's latest observations reinforce my need to keep the D700 after my D800 arrives. Here's why:

I shoot landscapes for gallery sales. I expect to benefit from the D800's traits at or near base ISO. As a former owner of a number of panoramic film cameras, I look forward to having the option to crop pans out of those 36MP files. Yes, I own and sometimes use a panning bracket but there are times when a single image rules.

I also do real estate and tourism work, which will largely not benefit from the bump in resolution but which often call for higher ISO shooting. File size is also a consideration here. If I sent a set of 36MP JPEGs to a Realtor, it could trigger a 911 call. Crop mode with the D800 would be a waste of my 14-24mm.

If others end up keeping the D700, the resale price may not drop as much as we'd otherwise expect.

The D700 doesn't have any advantage in low light over the D800. Quite the opposite in fact. The low light advantage goes to the D3s/D4, but only at ISO12800 and above. And the only reason for this is not the resolution or response of the D800 sensor, but due to the intrusion of thermal noise in the D800 files over ISO6400. Up to any including ISO6400 however, I would pick the D800 for low light quality -- all other considerations of practical workflow and handling aside.

Thom is being a bit misleading.

"But there's a tangible difference between a camera that takes three or four ISO boosts to lose a stop of dynamic range (D4) and one that loses nearly a stop of dynamic range per ISO boost (D800). While the D800 starts with a better dynamic range than the D4, it quickly loses that advantage as you boost ISO. Eventually it loses its pixel count advantage, too."

When Thom says that the D3s/D4 takes three or four ISO boosts to lose a stop of DR, he neglects to point out that the D3s/D4 are read-noise limited at anything ISO800 or below. They have run out of dynamic range prematurely, whereas the D800 does not.

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Clayton1985
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Re: Thom comments / I need D700+D800
In reply to perhort, Apr 3, 2012

perhort wrote:

Are you suggesting that the DxO Mark DR measurements are misleading? The DxO Mark scores show that the D4 has better dynamic range than the D800 from iso 800 and onwards, and the D3s from iso 3200 and onwards.

I don't think he's saying that at all. If I'm following this correctly, DxO actually reinforces Luke's point. DxO shows the D800 with a considerable DR advantage at ISO 100 so the "nearly a stop" of DR lost by the D800 still has the D800 almost even at ISO 800. From there the D4 takes a small lead that is maintained (but not increased) the rest of the way. After ISO 800 they both lose approximately a stop per ISO boost.

Reading Thom's comments you would think that the D800 declines rapidly from start to finish and the D4 widens the gap all the way to the end which is not what I see happening. For my purposes I will take a 1.3 stop advantage at ISO 100 combined with a roughly .5 stop disadvantage at ISO 800 and above.

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