Some home truths about Nikon

Started Mar 30, 2012 | Discussions
Nonacnokin
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Some home truths about Nikon
Mar 30, 2012

Nikon has always manipulated raws their raws by noise reduction and pixel replacement. That is why they can't be used for astronomy. Problems started when Nikon was so far behind Canon in the noise department they went overboard in chroma reduction. Chroma noise had to be removed at all cost irrespective of maintaining integrity of the raw files.

That's why when you pull shadows, there is no chroma noise. There is no detail either, unless you call luminance noise detail. Good thing for them is the result of high DXO scores. DxO doesn't measure IQ or data integrity. It measures proxies of IQ which can be easily manipulated. The reason why the Nikon D4 has a lower score is because there is less manipulation in the raws to satisfy certain pros, in particular detail destroying noise reduction.

Nikon has a very good jpeg engine but it still can't pull detail from raws because detail is gone or replaced with false detail. That's why the D800 jpegs are poor in detail especially in the high iso's. There is less to work on the manipulated raws.

One thing the D800 is best at is shooting with the lens cap on.

Nikon D4 Nikon D800
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Jaims
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Re: You are not going to make a lot of friends...
In reply to Nonacnokin, Mar 30, 2012

...among all the Nikonians in this forum

Other than that, I don't know whether Nikon/Sony cook their RAWs, or if Canon does.

Nonacnokin wrote:

Nikon has always manipulated raws their raws by noise reduction and pixel replacement. That is why they can't be used for astronomy. Problems started when Nikon was so far behind Canon in the noise department they went overboard in chroma reduction. Chroma noise had to be removed at all cost irrespective of maintaining integrity of the raw files.

That's why when you pull shadows, there is no chroma noise. There is no detail either, unless you call luminance noise detail. Good thing for them is the result of high DXO scores. DxO doesn't measure IQ or data integrity. It measures proxies of IQ which can be easily manipulated. The reason why the Nikon D4 has a lower score is because there is less manipulation in the raws to satisfy certain pros, in particular detail destroying noise reduction.

Nikon has a very good jpeg engine but it still can't pull detail from raws because detail is gone or replaced with false detail. That's why the D800 jpegs are poor in detail especially in the high iso's. There is less to work on the manipulated raws.

One thing the D800 is best at is shooting with the lens cap on.

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Tinu_ch
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Re: You are not going to make a lot of friends...
In reply to Jaims, Mar 30, 2012

Jaims wrote:

Other than that, I don't know whether Nikon/Sony cook their RAWs, or if Canon does.

I guess all do to some extent. All's well as long as it meets your ends ...

BTW there is a German photo magazine that fails to find the DR advantage of Nikon sensors. All I know is they do not use the DxO software most other review sites rely on.

Tinu

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Nonacnokin
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Re: You are not going to make a lot of friends...
In reply to Jaims, Mar 30, 2012

Sony didn't want to play the game at first with their A900. However, after seeing Nikon's DxO scores, they jumped in the bandwagon with their NEX cams.

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sandy b
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You speak about truth
In reply to Nonacnokin, Mar 30, 2012

Show us the proof. Or is it just a rant.

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chironNYC
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Re: Some home truths about Nikon
In reply to Nonacnokin, Mar 30, 2012

Nonacnokin wrote:

Nikon has a very good jpeg engine but it still can't pull detail from raws because detail is gone or replaced with false detail. That's why the D800 jpegs are poor in detail especially in the high iso's. There is less to work on the manipulated raws.

One thing the D800 is best at is shooting with the lens cap on.

Actually, it's not even better with the lens cap on! See http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=41037213

The comparison images are especially striking in terms of how bad the D800 is.
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Nonacnokin
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Re: You speak about truth
In reply to sandy b, Mar 30, 2012

There is a myriad of technical analysis done by astrophotographers. Do you know how to use Google? Let me know if you need help.

sandy b wrote:

Show us the proof. Or is it just a rant.

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Nonacnokin
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Re: Some home truths about Nikon
In reply to chironNYC, Mar 30, 2012

Nikon applies a mathematical median blurring filter to their images after the in-camera dark frame subtraction for built in noise-reduction. This occurs BEFORE the raw image is written to the file.

Nikon also truncates low-level signal during the digital-to-analog conversion performed by the electronics.

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PerL
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Could you NR experts explain...
In reply to Nonacnokin, Mar 30, 2012

..why Canons cant handle red patterns? (see the IR napkins samples). It has something to with NR, doesnt it?

Nonacnokin wrote:

Nikon applies a mathematical median blurring filter to their images after the in-camera dark frame subtraction for built in noise-reduction. This occurs BEFORE the raw image is written to the file.

Nikon also truncates low-level signal during the digital-to-analog conversion performed by the electronics.

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rwbaron
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Re: Some home truths about Nikon
In reply to Nonacnokin, Mar 30, 2012

I predict this thread will be at 150 before the day is over.

Bob
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rwbaron
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Re: Could you NR experts explain...
In reply to PerL, Mar 30, 2012

I don't believe that is true. It has to do with a weaker CFA from what I've read from several sources.

Bob

PerL wrote:

..why Canons cant handle red patterns? (see the IR napkins samples). It has something to with NR, doesnt it?

Nonacnokin wrote:

Nikon applies a mathematical median blurring filter to their images after the in-camera dark frame subtraction for built in noise-reduction. This occurs BEFORE the raw image is written to the file.

Nikon also truncates low-level signal during the digital-to-analog conversion performed by the electronics.

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rwbaron
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Re: You are not going to make a lot of friends...
In reply to Tinu_ch, Mar 30, 2012

Do you have a link to the German photo magazine article?

Bob

Tinu_ch wrote:

Jaims wrote:

Other than that, I don't know whether Nikon/Sony cook their RAWs, or if Canon does.

I guess all do to some extent. All's well as long as it meets your ends ...

BTW there is a German photo magazine that fails to find the DR advantage of Nikon sensors. All I know is they do not use the DxO software most other review sites rely on.

Tinu

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Nonacnokin
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Read noise cannot be taken from D800
In reply to rwbaron, Mar 30, 2012

Read noise is measured from the fluctuation spectrum of raw levels in a blackframe image taken at high shutter speed with the body cap on the camera.

Read noise cannot be measured from blackframes on the D300 and D800. Nikon clips the black end of the spectrum well BEFORE zero signal, thereby distorting the noise spectrum in deepest shadows.

This is well known, except for the Nikon trolls around here.

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Nonacnokin
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In a way you can't blame Nikon
In reply to Nonacnokin, Mar 30, 2012

The mid-2000s were desperate times for Nikon. They got sick and tired of complains about chroma noise. Actually, the D2x produces very low chroma readings. The problem was terrible luminance noise from excessive chroma reduction. It was over these times that Nikon earned the nickname the "star eater" because of heavy NR on their raw files making stars in the night sky disappearing.

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PerL
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"Poor detail at high ISOs"
In reply to Nonacnokin, Mar 30, 2012

Nikon has a very good jpeg engine but it still can't pull detail from raws because detail is gone or replaced with false detail. That's why the D800 jpegs are poor in detail especially in the high iso's. There is less to work on the manipulated raws.

This is jpegs, ISO 6400. I can read the telephone number in the D800 image, but hardly in the 5D3 shot.

One thing the D800 is best at is shooting with the lens cap on.

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jindrich
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Re: Some home truths about Nikon
In reply to Nonacnokin, Mar 30, 2012

I don't understand why some people insist in being so childish.

A camera is a damm tool and who is stupid enough to care about brands?

Two days ago I was at a Pro presentation of the new Canons and Hasselbalds. I tried the 1DX, 5D3 and a HD40 shooting a model with Profotos.

The canons image was very nice. But the Hasselblad totally trashed them. TOTALLY. it was night and day.

A week ago I also went to the Nikons. The D800 shooting studio-style gave a stunning image and it has an unbelievable price/performance ratio compared to the HD40, which it got VERY VERY close. Amazing detail never seen on 135 cameras.

These are the facts. All cameras are great. But to say the D800 is bad just because it's not "your brand" doesn't make you look very clever.

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Nonacnokin
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Of course Sony tried to take the credit
In reply to Nonacnokin, Mar 30, 2012

Claiming amazing breakthroughs in their Exmor sensors. Yeah, there were some innovative ideas. However, the biggest improvements came from raw manipulation. Nikon's claim of "designing" their sensors was pure crock. They were just Sony sensors.

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PerL
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Re: Of course Sony tried to take the credit
In reply to Nonacnokin, Mar 30, 2012

Nonacnokin wrote:

Claiming amazing breakthroughs in their Exmor sensors. Yeah, there were some innovative ideas. However, the biggest improvements came from raw manipulation. Nikon's claim of "designing" their sensors was pure crock. They were just Sony sensors.

What do you know that nobody else knows about the 12 mp FF sensor from Nikon that was used in the D3/D700? There is no Sony 12 mp FF camera.
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David Hull
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Re: "Poor detail at high ISOs"
In reply to PerL, Mar 30, 2012

Maybe if you made the Canon image the same size, you could read it?
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Nonacnokin
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Small clue with DxO
In reply to Nonacnokin, Mar 30, 2012

The Nikon trolls actually believe that the D800 DxO noise score matches the D4. Somehow the laws of physics doesn't apply to the D800! Absurd. Simple story is that the D800 is tailored specially for pixel peepers while the D4 is for the pros. A similarly processed raw from the D4 will blow away the D800 at high iso. So much for DxO scores. That's the problem of using proxies for measuring IQ rather than your own eyes.

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