What can LR4 do for you?

Started Mar 21, 2012 | Discussions
Bob Tullis
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Re: What can LR4 do for you?
In reply to vincent filomena, Mar 29, 2012

vincent filomena wrote:

Three problems with the LR4: I felt the Auto button exposed too light,

I've never used Auto exposure in LR before. I find it often is too dark or too light in LR4, but not often enough to stop giving it a press, as it does pretty good with certain types of exposures.

The sliders are too short: I like to throw the sliders back and forth,

I hear that - but one can adjust the width of the panels (which also adjusts the slider size), hide panel(s) that aren't needed (to allow more space for the image)

And finally, if you want to send an original image with settings to PS, you have to have PS6 to read the LR 4 images !

Don't know about that - I haven't found a need for PS in about 2 years (yet I still can't discard it, having worked with it for nearly decade prior to that).

Better just to upgrade to PS 6 (I have the Beta now), and the sliders are longer

I wouldn't argue that point. Two months ago I did update to PS5 - I can't think of a compelling reason for me to continue with PS6 at this point, but that's my problem.

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Pelagic
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Re: What can LR4 do for me? Cost me money.
In reply to Louis_Dobson, Mar 29, 2012

Agree

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vincent filomena
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Re: What can LR4 do for you?
In reply to Bob Tullis, Mar 30, 2012

Bob Tullis wrote:

Better just to upgrade to PS 6 (I have the Beta now), and the sliders are longer

I wouldn't argue that point. Two months ago I did update to PS5 - I can't think of a compelling reason for me to continue with PS6 at this point, but that's my problem.

Bob,

D/L the PS6 beta: The Magical auto button is amazing; I can walk around all day shooting the G3 at +0.66 and the EPM1 at +0.33 exposure settings and not worry about little blinky problems; the Auto button pulls the HighLights back outta oblivian; lots of funna ! For the last several years I have only used the Bridge and the ACR parts of PS.

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Adventsam
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Re: What can LR4 do for GH2 RW2s beyond impressive highlight recovery?
In reply to Adventsam, Mar 30, 2012

Does this look "pumped" it did at 100% but used the 50% slide to make sure I was as close on detail to your image, but it did look ugly at 100%, not so bad exported so I thought I'd get your feedback.

Used the medium contrast tone as discussed and sharpening is 100%, radius 0.8, detail 70% and no mask at 1:2 looks good at 1:1 looks a bit halo'y.

I put your image and my image in chrome in adjacent tabs and full size and tabbed between them, interesting!

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Detail Man
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Re: What can LR4 do for GH2 RW2s beyond impressive highlight recovery?
In reply to Adventsam, Mar 31, 2012

Adventsam wrote:

Does this look "pumped" it did at 100% but used the 50% slide to make sure I was as close on detail to your image, but it did look ugly at 100%, not so bad exported so I thought I'd get your feedback.

Used the medium contrast tone as discussed and sharpening is 100%, radius 0.8, detail 70% and no mask at 1:2 looks good at 1:1 looks a bit halo'y.

I put your image and my image in chrome in adjacent tabs and full size and tabbed between them, interesting!

Is your monitor display screen 1333 pixels in height (or greater) ? If not, the images are being down-sampled (by the browser, viewer, etc.) when you view them. Far better to view them at 100% (of the 2000x1333 pixel-size), or crop them (as displayed below) to compare fine-details ...

I find that both of your (V2 and V3) processings are higher average greyscale than my processing (as are the crops below). I have normalized the average greyscale of your V2 and V3 crops to be equal to the average grayscale of my crop. Since the contribution of the sky areas differs, this is not perfect - but it is a linear scaling of all image-data (that does not introduce any additional artifacts/posterize-ation), and doing so helps the viewer inspect the fine-details of your V2 and V3.

Here is the (previously posted) crop from my DxO Optics Pro processing of your GH2 RW2 image:

Here is the (average greyscale normalized) crop of your previous V2 processing:

Here is the (average greyscale normalized) crop of your most recent V3 processing:

The color of your V3 has changed a lot from your V2 (I personally prefer your V2 color, myself). Other than existing as a personal preference of mine, I think that the change in color may be adversely impacting the viewer's ability to perceive the fine-details in the tree branches of the smaller trees (to the left and right of the larger tree in the center). Did the scene look like that ??

I (myself) do not see much improvement in the fine-details of the tree branches of the larger tree in the center. Note that the distant trees (in the upper-left, located on the faraway hills in the background) seem sharper - but it appears (to me) that the lens-blur of your LGV 14-140mm lens has obscured the high-spatial frequency (fine-detail) information of the tree branches of the larger tree in the center to an extent that LR4's Sharpening tools (as you have configured them) are not able to do much to compensate for. This might well (also) be the case when using the Topaz Labs InFocus plug-in - because it, like LR 3.x/4.x, and ACR 6.x, utilizes deconvolution-deblurring without having any specific knowledge of the particular lens-blur characteristics of the LGV 14-140mm lens .

My own eyes still see a significant advantage in the use of the DxO Labs RAW Optics Corrections Module for the LGV 14-140mm lens - where deconvolution-deblurring is only one component integrated into a comprehensive system which is configured specifically to the actual measured characteristics of the Lumix G Vario 14-140mm lens at it's Focal Length and F-Number (with Focus Distance manually specified by the user in DxO):

http://www.dxo.com/us/photo/dxo_optics_pro/features/optics_geometry_corrections/lens_softness

That's what my eyes are seeing. It matters not to me what others may or may not use/purchase. What is important is that each person manages to please their own aesthetic taste as they see fit.
.

The most interesting issue (as far as I'm concerned) is the question: while LR4's highlight-recovery in the upper tone-levels is impressive, does it's use (particularly it's heavy usage as a corrective measure for moderately to severely blown highlight-tones in RAW color-channels) result in a compromising of the user's ability to get the rest of the tone-levels right ? No highlight-recovery scheme is magically perfect. All things in engineering tend to exact some sort of penalty in other areas of concern. "Smushing" highlight-tones downwards into the upper-mid-tones exacts a penalty in all other highlight-recovery/control tools that I have used (LR3, RAW Therapee, Silkypix).

The common occurrence of sky-areas in landscape shots being the primary culprits of highlight-clipping is undeniable. The important question is "at what overall price" is this highlight-detail recovered ? Those who might answer "none" may well be engaging a bit in wishful thinking. Of course, some shots are going to work out better than others. Landscape shots which involve a significant amount of high spatial-frequency (fine-detail) subject matter of interest within the field-of-focus, and where that subject-matter contains (particularly upper) mid-tones are likely to potentially be compromised the most. That would be a realistic (rather than "magical") perspective.

However, beauty exists solely within the eye of the beholder. Being easily pleased is truly a blessing, indeed ! And relative improvements are noteworthy (even given trade-offs/down-sides).

For some, however, there is no substitute for real (as opposed to synthetic) Dynamic Range. I'm getting the feeling that LR4 highlight-recovery is not a "license to blow highlights with impunity" ...

DM ...

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Adventsam
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Re: What can LR4 do for GH2 RW2s beyond impressive highlight recovery?
In reply to Detail Man, Mar 31, 2012

DM,

Personally I thought that sharpening on mine was superior now, I know what you are seeing but at normal viewing am not sure jn print and screen it can be discerned? I would like to see a 100% of your image if at all possible so I can witness for myslef the effect of the sharpening to.c/w lr 100%

Overall I couldnt live those skies, and you cant live with the loss of micro detail so we need to decide whats good for you, I do disagree though that the detail is any better?

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Detail Man
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Re: What can LR4 do for GH2 RW2s beyond impressive highlight recovery?
In reply to Adventsam, Mar 31, 2012

Adventsam wrote:

DM,

Personally I thought that sharpening on mine was superior now, I know what you are seeing but at normal viewing am not sure jn print and screen it can be discerned? I would like to see a 100% of your image if at all possible so I can witness for myslef the effect of the sharpening to.c/w lr 100%

What is the native pixel height of your monitor display-screen ? Is it a TN-type screen, or IPS type-screen, BTW ? Do you know it's contrast-ratio as calibrated ? Is it calibrated ? To sRGB ?

I can make 100% crops from the original TIF output from DxO > LR3.6 both before as well as after mild USM applied (but need to know your monitor's display-screen pixel-height to do so correctly).

Did you apply mild USM (Radius=0.5, Strength=50%) to your V3 processing after down-sampling to the 2000x1333 pixel-size that you are using ? Doing that would make for a fair comparison ...

Overall I couldnt live those skies, and you cant live with the loss of micro detail so we need to decide whats good for you, I do disagree though that the detail is any better?

I think that the issue of micro-detail (lens-blur, and the efficacy of sharpening algorithms) may well be a largely/mostly separate issue from the impacts of LR4's highlight-recovery upon the mid-tones.

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Aleo Veuliah
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Re: Any comments on this one ? :)
In reply to Aleo Veuliah, Mar 31, 2012

Aleo Veuliah wrote:

  • I have to admit that LR4 is better, I tried with Capture One Pro and despite the result is good it can not push so much the high lights detail on the sky, so I give up and opened the file on LR4 and done the processing to my personal taste

Aleo processing

Original image without processing

Adventsam processing

Of course I prefer my processing it was made to my taste, and Adventsam made to it's own taste

That is why today processing images well is very important, like it was on the film

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Detail Man
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Re: Any comments on this one ? :)
In reply to Aleo Veuliah, Mar 31, 2012

Aleo Veuliah wrote:

I have to admit that LR4 is better, I tried with Capture One Pro and despite the result is good it can not push so much the high lights detail on the sky, so I give up and opened the file on LR4 and done the processing to my personal taste

Aleo processing

Of course I prefer my processing it was made to my taste, and Adventsam made to it's own taste

I like the color-rendering, as well as some things about the "tonal-rendering" of your processing. (If your image has been down-sampled after RAW processing to something close to the 2000x1333 pixel-size that Adventsam and I have used in our processings, I would like (with your permission) to try to make (and post) a crop from it taking a closer look at the trees - for the purpose of evaluating fine-detail resolution that you have been able to achieve using LR4 Sharpening tools.

However, your DPR Gallery is not presently configured to allow the downloading of the original, full size image. To make that possible:

... in the Forum view, go to "User", then click "Edit Profile" in the drop down list, click on "Privacy & Safety", and you will see the box to click to allow users to download your original photo.

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Detail Man
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Re: What can LR4 do for GH2 RW2s beyond impressive highlight recovery?
In reply to Detail Man, Apr 1, 2012

Detail Man wrote:

Adventsam wrote:

DM,

Personally I thought that sharpening on mine was superior now, I know what you are seeing but at normal viewing am not sure jn print and screen it can be discerned? I would like to see a 100% of your image if at all possible so I can witness for myslef the effect of the sharpening to.c/w lr 100%

What is the native pixel height of your monitor display-screen ? Is it a TN-type screen, or IPS type-screen, BTW ? Do you know it's contrast-ratio as calibrated ? Is it calibrated ? To sRGB ?

I can make 100% crops from the original TIF output from DxO > LR3.6 both before as well as after mild USM applied (but need to know your monitor's display-screen pixel-height to do so correctly).

Did you apply mild USM (Radius=0.5, Strength=50%) to your V3 processing after down-sampling to the 2000x1333 pixel-size that you are using ? Doing that would make for a fair comparison ...

Overall I couldnt live those skies, and you cant live with the loss of micro detail so we need to decide whats good for you, I do disagree though that the detail is any better?

I think that the issue of micro-detail (lens-blur, and the efficacy of sharpening algorithms) may well be a largely/mostly separate issue from the impacts of LR4's highlight-recovery upon the mid-tones.

Sam ? What is the pixel-height of your monitor display-screen ? That is all that I need to proceed.

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Detail Man
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Re: Any comments on this one ? :)
In reply to Detail Man, Apr 1, 2012

Detail Man wrote:

Aleo Veuliah wrote:

I have to admit that LR4 is better, I tried with Capture One Pro and despite the result is good it can not push so much the high lights detail on the sky, so I give up and opened the file on LR4 and done the processing to my personal taste

Aleo processing

Of course I prefer my processing it was made to my taste, and Adventsam made to it's own taste

I like the color-rendering, as well as some things about the "tonal-rendering" of your processing. (If your image has been down-sampled after RAW processing to something close to the 2000x1333 pixel-size that Adventsam and I have used in our processings, I would like (with your permission) to try to make (and post) a crop from it taking a closer look at the trees - for the purpose of evaluating fine-detail resolution that you have been able to achieve using LR4 Sharpening tools.

However, your DPR Gallery is not presently configured to allow the downloading of the original, full size image. To make that possible:

... in the Forum view, go to "User", then click "Edit Profile" in the drop down list, click on "Privacy & Safety", and you will see the box to click to allow users to download your original photo.

Aleo ,

I see that your "Large" size is 1024x768. Not sure if that is (also) the size of the original. Could you re-size your LR4 result to 1333 pixel-height (the 4:3 aspect-ratio is fine) so that the pixel height matches Sam's processing, and allow for my downloading of original-sizes from your DPR Gallery ?

DM

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Adventsam
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Re: What can LR4 do for GH2 RW2s beyond impressive highlight recovery?
In reply to Detail Man, Apr 1, 2012

I have a hp dreamcolour monitor I can switch to dofferent profiles for video too!
I dont knlw the exact spec

I didnt shapen fod sceen on o/p?

Am on vacation now cant mess for a week.

Best Asam

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Detail Man
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Re: What can LR4 do for GH2 RW2s beyond impressive highlight recovery?
In reply to Adventsam, Apr 1, 2012

Adventsam wrote:

I have a hp dreamcolour monitor I can switch to dofferent profiles for video too!
I dont knlw the exact spec

1200 pixel-height (that took me about 15 seconds to find out, BTW):

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF06a/382087-382087-64283-72270-3884471-3648397.html?dnr=1

I didnt shapen fod sceen on o/p?

I take that you mean "I didn't sharpen fod(?) screen on original post?"

OK. I will provide 1200 pixel-height crops of before as well as after the application of mild USM. The DxO> LR3 "before" version looks softer, which should make you feel happier about LR4 Sharpening.

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Detail Man
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Re: What can LR4 do for GH2 RW2s beyond impressive highlight recovery?
In reply to Detail Man, Apr 1, 2012

Detail Man wrote:

... I will provide 1200 pixel-height crops of before as well as after the application of mild USM.

1200 pixel-height. 3:2 aspect-ratio. The very same crop as previously posted at smaller pixel-size. Post DxO and LR 3.6. Prior to down-sampling and the application of mild USM. Loss-less JPG ...

Since you did not apply mild USM after down-sampling in your process, and since this is not down-sampled (100% crop straight from your full-size image), it will allow you a direct comparison.

Download original here: http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/4464732135/download/1851913

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LTZ470
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Re: What can LR4 do for GH2 RW2s beyond impressive highlight recovery?
In reply to Detail Man, Apr 1, 2012

I like Sams rendering best I think it's closer to what the would see if I were standing there...but great thread to see what can actually be done...I am still not in the RAW yet DM, but leaning that way...lol....
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Aleo Veuliah
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Re: Any comments on this one ? :) DetailMan
In reply to Detail Man, Apr 1, 2012

I have converted to 1024 after post processing, but here it is the original file

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30483945/P1010296.RW2

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Detail Man
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Re: Any comments on this one ? :) DetailMan
In reply to Aleo Veuliah, Apr 1, 2012

Aleo Veuliah wrote:

I have converted to 1024 after post processing ...

Aleo ,

Here is the best way to proceed (if you have the time). Take a look at the 1600x1200 crop that I made from the DxO> LR 3.6 full-sized (not yet down-sampled) original. Your image is not rotated like Sam's and mine, but that does not really matter much, it will place your image at an advantage

Use the LR4 crop tool to make a similar crop (of 1600x1200 pixel-size) of the 3 trees (the large one in the center surrounded by smaller trees), similar to my crop (does not have to be identical).

Do not down-sample this crop. Do not apply any USM. Just leave it sharpened as it already was in your original processing - using LR4's Sharpening tools in the Detail section (or whatever they now call the same thing as the Detail tools in LR 3.6).

Make a JPG from that crop using the very highest Quality settings that you can in LR4. If you can turn off chroma sub-sampling in addition to choosing highest quality factor, great - if not, it's OK.

Post that high-quality JPG of that crop to this thread . Please (if you would), change your DPR settings (see the instructions I posted) so that we can download the (non re-sized by the DPR system) full-sized 1600x1200 JPG that you make. Or PM me if you would rather email it to me ...

Then we can compare how the fine-detail looks in the structures of the tree-branches, etc., and Sam will have two different 1600x1200 (100%) crops (from my DxO> LR3.6 and your LR4 processings of the original GH2 RW2) to compare with what his looks like at 100% in his LR4 processing preview. This will give an indication of the differences between DxO and LR4 sharpening

DM

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Detail Man
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Re: Any comments on this one ? :) DetailMan
In reply to Detail Man, Apr 1, 2012

Aleo ,

Sorry, make that 1800x1200 , not 1600x1200 (see corrections below):

... Take a look at the 1800x1200 crop that I made from the DxO> LR 3.6 ...

... make a similar crop (of 1800x1200 pixel-size) of the 3 trees ...

... the (non re-sized by the DPR system) full-sized 1800x1200 JPG that you make ...

... and Sam will have two different 1800x1200 (100%) crops ...

DM

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Detail Man
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Fine-Detail Resolution: DxO Optics Pro 6.60 vs. Lightroom 4.0
In reply to Detail Man, Apr 1, 2012

1200 pixel-height. 3:2 aspect-ratio. The very same crop as previously posted at smaller pixel-size. Post DxO and LR 3.6. Prior to down-sampling and the application of mild USM. Loss-less JPG.

Download original here: http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/4464732135/download/1851913

Aleo's LR4 processing of Adventsam's GH2 RW2. 1200 pixel-height. 3:2 aspect-ratio. Post LR4. Not down-sampled. No post-USM. Loss-less JPG. Sharpening settings not remembered by Aleo :

Download original here: http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/4464732135/download/1852947
.
.

With PSP X4 USM applied to both images (Radius=0.66, Strength=100%, Thresh=3) .
.

DxO Optics Pro "Lens Softness" correction sharpening using deconvolution-deblurring :

Download original here: http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/4464732135/download/1853036
.

Lightroom 4.0 Sharpening using deconvolution-deblurring :

Download original here: http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/4464732135/download/1853038

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Aleo Veuliah
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Re: Nice research Detail Man, Thanks
In reply to Detail Man, Apr 1, 2012

I think both are good, depends on who use them, I never tried DxO optics, I bought LR4, have to see if they have a full working trial to download

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