Thom still thinks we need to 'downsize' with higher MP sensors

Started Mar 20, 2012 | Discussions
noirdesir
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Thom still thinks we need to 'downsize' with higher MP sensors
Mar 20, 2012

http://bythom.com

Technically, you could downsize the D4's 16mp to 12mp and get a slight benefit, but in practice I'll bet that most D4 shooters will just consider the change in pixel count a "cropping flexibility."

Good to hear that Thom will in future crop most of his 16 MP D4 images to 12 MP before posting them on his website (though occasionally he will downsize them to 12 MP and posting these downsized 12 MP images instead of the 12 MP D3(s) images he currently posts).

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Raylaw
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Misinterpretation
In reply to noirdesir, Mar 20, 2012

noirdesir wrote:
http://bythom.com

Technically, you could downsize the D4's 16mp to 12mp and get a slight benefit, but in practice I'll bet that most D4 shooters will just consider the change in pixel count a "cropping flexibility."

Good to hear that Thom will in future crop most of his 16 MP D4 images to 12 MP before posting them on his website (though occasionally he will downsize them to 12 MP and posting these downsized 12 MP images instead of the 12 MP D3(s) images he currently posts).

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Dave Courtenay
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Re: Thom still thinks we need to 'downsize' with higher MP sensors
In reply to noirdesir, Mar 20, 2012

I suggest that you re read the article as thats not what he is saying
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diverroy
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Re: Thom still thinks we need to 'downsize' with higher MP sensors
In reply to noirdesir, Mar 20, 2012

noirdesir wrote:
http://bythom.com

Technically, you could downsize the D4's 16mp to 12mp and get a slight benefit, but in practice I'll bet that most D4 shooters will just consider the change in pixel count a "cropping flexibility."

Good to hear that Thom will in future crop most of his 16 MP D4 images to 12 MP before posting them on his website (though occasionally he will downsize them to 12 MP and posting these downsized 12 MP images instead of the 12 MP D3(s) images he currently posts).

Read it again.That's not what he is saying.He used the word could.
Diverroy

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ukat123
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Re: Thom still thinks we need to 'downsize' with higher MP sensors
In reply to noirdesir, Mar 20, 2012

noirdesir wrote:
http://bythom.com

Technically, you could downsize the D4's 16mp to 12mp and get a slight benefit, but in practice I'll bet that most D4 shooters will just consider the change in pixel count a "cropping flexibility."

Good to hear that Thom will in future crop most of his 16 MP D4 images to 12 MP before posting them on his website (though occasionally he will downsize them to 12 MP and posting these downsized 12 MP images instead of the 12 MP D3(s) images he currently posts).

Who's Thom? Why should he know better? Was there anything that he knew better in past reviews? I did not notice. Do we need to follow Thom's opinion like sheep? Surely, he must be unhappy Nikon did not contact him to test their new cameras, and there must be a reason for it

Really does he need a D4 for posting small photos of this quality on a website. Why not a Nikon 1. He is a bit like Ken Rockwell who is going to use a 28-300mm lens with his D800 and downsize to 6mp.

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tarnish
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In reply to noirdesir, Mar 20, 2012

The picture at the top his page today is 0.36MP.

Web pictures are t-i-n-y.

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noirdesir
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Re: Thom still thinks we need to 'downsize' with higher MP sensors
In reply to diverroy, Mar 20, 2012

diverroy wrote:

noirdesir wrote:
http://bythom.com

Technically, you could downsize the D4's 16mp to 12mp and get a slight benefit, but in practice I'll bet that most D4 shooters will just consider the change in pixel count a "cropping flexibility."

Good to hear that Thom will in future crop most of his 16 MP D4 images to 12 MP before posting them on his website (though occasionally he will downsize them to 12 MP and posting these downsized 12 MP images instead of the 12 MP D3(s) images he currently posts).

Read it again.That's not what he is saying.He used the word could.

Yes, he said 'could downsize' (which in a sense makes it even worse because it suggests that people will not do it, ie view the 16 MP D4 images at a different size than the 12 MP D3s images). But he then follows that, instead of downsizing, most people will just crop the 16 MP D4 image more (which makes even less sense than his downsizing comment).

Thom cannot shake off the notion that a 16 MP image will normally be viewed larger (either by cropping or by printing or displaying larger) than a 12 MP image. Which likely is nonsense for 90+% of all images shot with these cameras. That is why in back of his mind he always evaluates the larger sensor at a larger viewing size.

The second misconception that he cannot get out of his mind is that it takes a conscious effort (this famous downsizing) to view the image from a 16 MP sensor at the same size as the image from a 12 MP sensor when exactly the opposite is true, ie, it takes a conscious effort to view them at different sizes.

These two misconceptions colour his language even though he naturally in principle knows better.

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noirdesir
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Re: New to digital photography?
In reply to tarnish, Mar 20, 2012

tarnish wrote:

The picture at the top his page today is 0.36MP.

Web pictures are t-i-n-y.

Which was my point, I was being highly sarcastic. Why invent that purely artificial idea of downsampling D4 images from 16 to 12 MP before using them, when basically all images viewed or printed are either down- or upsampled anyway. It is like saying: Oh, with this more powerful car I have to alter the position of my foot on the accelerator to drive at the same speed?

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Ray Ritchie
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Re: Thom still thinks we need to 'downsize' with higher MP sensors
In reply to ukat123, Mar 21, 2012

Yes, you obviously do not know who Thom is.

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Re: Thom still thinks we need to 'downsize' with higher MP sensors
In reply to noirdesir, Mar 21, 2012

I read it. I don't see anything to bash. He is simply discussing the new cameras with anticipation of how users might approach them. Maybe he's wrong, but he isn't advocating anything, other than the fact that these are great cameras that he has not yet fully tested himself. I'm as cynical as anyone, but I see nothing there suggesting how anyone should use their new camera or even how he will use it.

Note: I'm no friend of Thom's as far as I know, and I have no special insight or interest here.

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Minnesota_Steve
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Re: Thom still thinks we need to 'downsize' with higher MP sensors
In reply to noirdesir, Mar 21, 2012

Here will be my use:

1. Wildlife. Need low light capability, high frame rates, accurate low light focussing.

2. More pixels on the target so I can get a higher effective zoom by cropping. The full frame puts me further away but can pull me back in a little through cropping. But the kicker is, I get shots I cannot normally get with a D300.

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vincent__l
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Re: Thom still thinks we need to 'downsize' with higher MP sensors
In reply to Ray Ritchie, Mar 21, 2012

This is basically what everyone wants to confirm. So far all the samples from pre-production D800's have shown the noise / detail to be quite competitive with D3 and 5DII when downsampled.

From Thom...

"I currently do see equality between the D4 and D800 at the higher ISO values.

Just like a D3x had an advantage over the D3 at low ISO values when downsampled to 12mp, so will the D800 have an advantage to the D4, I think (again, very early analysis; I reserve the right to change my mind after a more thorough examination)."

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ScottRH
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Re: Thom still thinks we need to 'downsize' with higher MP sensors
In reply to Minnesota_Steve, Mar 21, 2012

Well then. As I hold my position and opinion, concerning point 1, the D800 is not for you.

Minnesota_Steve wrote:

Here will be my use:

1. Wildlife. Need low light capability, high frame rates, accurate low light focussing.

2. More pixels on the target so I can get a higher effective zoom by cropping. The full frame puts me further away but can pull me back in a little through cropping. But the kicker is, I get shots I cannot normally get with a D300.

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Steve

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noirdesir
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Re: Thom still thinks we need to 'downsize' with higher MP sensors
In reply to BackInTheGame, Mar 21, 2012

BackInTheGame wrote:

I read it. I don't see anything to bash. He is simply discussing the new cameras with anticipation of how users might approach them. Maybe he's wrong, but he isn't advocating anything, other than the fact that these are great cameras that he has not yet fully tested himself. I'm as cynical as anyone, but I see nothing there suggesting how anyone should use their new camera or even how he will use it.

Most of his post is not controversial but the part I quoted reveals the two misconceptions that Thom still harbours, described in one my replies above:

  • Thom cannot shake off the notion that a 16 MP image will normally be viewed larger (either by cropping or by printing or displaying larger) than a 12 MP image. Which likely is nonsense for 90+% of all images shot with these cameras. That is why in the back of his mind he still at some point evaluates the larger sensor at a larger viewing size.

  • The second misconception is that he cannot get out of his mind is that it takes a conscious effort (this famous downsizing) to view the image from a 16 MP sensor at the same size as the image from a 12 MP sensor when exactly the opposite is true, ie, it takes a conscious effort to view them at different sizes.

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Scriptorium
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Re: Thom still thinks we need to 'downsize' with higher MP sensors
In reply to Ray Ritchie, Mar 21, 2012

LOL.

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Minnesota_Steve
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Re: Thom still thinks we need to 'downsize' with higher MP sensors
In reply to ScottRH, Mar 21, 2012

Correct -all D4 for me.
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RudivanS
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Re: Thom still thinks we need to 'downsize' with higher MP sensors
In reply to noirdesir, Mar 21, 2012

noirdesir, I much prefer your constructive Mac forum contributions.
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noirdesir
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Re: Thom still thinks we need to 'downsize' with higher MP sensors
In reply to RudivanS, Mar 21, 2012

RudivanS wrote:

noirdesir, I much prefer your constructive Mac forum contributions.

Isn't it constructive to point out that to get the same low light performance of the D3s out of the D4, it makes little sense to downsize from 16 MP to 12 MP but that the better way is to resize to final display size directly from the D4's 16 MP, and to apply NR before this resizing?

But overall, the fact that Thom's posts occasionally tend to drift into waffling and then contain some non-sensical statements probably should not warrant a correction. I just could not resist the opportunity to poke fun at Thom.

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