Is 1080p Possible with D800 HDMI Output ?

Started Mar 17, 2012 | Discussions
vincent__l
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Is 1080p Possible with D800 HDMI Output ?
Mar 17, 2012

Looking through the D800 user guide they only mention 1080i as an option (page 257).

http://www.nikonusa.com/pdf/manuals/dslr/D800_EN.pdf

This video created with the HDMI output also used 1080i.

http://www.eoshd.com/content/7489/first-test-of-nikon-d800-hdmi-output

Nikon D800
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PicMax
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Re: Is 1080p Possible with D800 HDMI Output ?
In reply to vincent__l, Mar 17, 2012

Interesting. Nikon claims broadcast quality video. I dont think there is 1080p broadcast yet.

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Neil Morgan
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Re: Is 1080p Possible with D800 HDMI Output ?
In reply to vincent__l, Mar 17, 2012

I think the point is here that the Video output is just for reference same as any camera. At the end you will edit it in a PC and do something with it.

Or do you intent to view all you movies from the CF card and take your camera everywhere to play them ?
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kramp
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Page 256 then page 70.
In reply to vincent__l, Mar 17, 2012
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vincent__l
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Re: Page 256 then page 70.
In reply to kramp, Mar 17, 2012

I believe the settings on page 70 are only referring to video quality when you record internally, not to HDMI out.

kramp wrote:

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bob elkind
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See page 258
In reply to vincent__l, Mar 17, 2012

From page 258:

During movie live view and movie recording and playback, HDMI output will be adjusted according to the option selected for Movie settings > Frame size/frame rate in the shooting menu (page 70).

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bob elkind
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Confirmed: 1080p24 output on HDMI
In reply to bob elkind, Mar 23, 2012

Presuming that D800 matches D4 implementation, there is good news.

forum post: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?277669-Official-HDMI-1080-IS-INTERLACED-ONLY&p=1986109485&viewfull=1#post1986109485

The Nikon D4, with no QXD or CompactFlash card inserted, can be configured to output clean HDMI 1080p 23.98. The AJA Ki Pro Mini, beginning with version 3.0 firmware, which was recently released, will correctly interpret the D4's output and will report and record 1080p 23.98. A few things to keep in mind: the camera must be set to Auto for the HDMI output format and Live View must be activated for the "handshake" to happen properly. (It is doubtful that all external video recorders will behave in the same way as the "handshake" requires some work to achieve.) Also, it is good to be aware that when entering Menu on the camera, be aware that 1080i will be output. Another thing to keep in mind, noted in some very brief initial testing (so not completely quantified), is that it appears that Live View audio may not be delayed to match Live View video so some compensation in post may be needed for a/v sync when using an external video recorder. (If double-system sound is being recorded, likely this isn't an issue since there are software tools that provide compensation and "auto" a/v sync that are available.) Additionally, this has only been very briefly tested with the Nikon D4, not the Nikon D800.

Hope this information is helpful. Please be aware that I am not able to post sample videos, sorry, but can say that the images produced from the camera output being recorded by the Ki Pro Mini do look quite nice.

Jon Thorn
Senior Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.

While the user manual isn't completely and meticulously specific, this is exactly as implied in the D800 (and D4) user manual.

bob elkind wrote:
From page 258 (D800 user manual):

During movie live view and movie recording and playback, HDMI output will be adjusted according to the option selected for Movie settings > Frame size/frame rate in the shooting menu (page 70).

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chris maytag
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Re: Is 1080p Possible with D800 HDMI Output ?
In reply to Neil Morgan, Mar 23, 2012

at the Video output is just for reference same as any camera.

Uncompressed video out on a camera is not "just for reference". It's for recording, specifically.

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bob elkind
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Also confirmed: 1080p25/30 output on HDMI
In reply to bob elkind, Mar 24, 2012

bob elkind wrote:
Presuming that D800 matches D4 implementation, there is good news.

forum post: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?277669-Official-HDMI-1080-IS-INTERLACED-ONLY&p=1986109485&viewfull=1#post1986109485

The Nikon D4, with no QXD or CompactFlash card inserted, can be configured to output clean HDMI 1080p 23.98. The AJA Ki Pro Mini, beginning with version 3.0 firmware, which was recently released, will correctly interpret the D4's output and will report and record 1080p 23.98. A few things to keep in mind: the camera must be set to Auto for the HDMI output format and Live View must be activated for the "handshake" to happen properly.

...

Jon Thorn
Senior Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.

While the user manual isn't completely and meticulously specific, this is exactly as implied in the D800 (and D4) user manual.

In a followup post, Mr Thorn has also confirmed:

  • 1080p25 and 1080p30 HDMI output in Live mode

  • HDMI output in Live mode supports 4:2:2 YCrCb

  • audio is embedded in HDMI output in Live mode

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geronimo
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Re: Is 1080p Possible with D800 HDMI Output ?
In reply to vincent__l, Mar 24, 2012

If it's like the D4 (and I assume it is), it will be 1080p output in a 1080i wrapper.

If you are exporting to an external recording device like the Ninja/Samurai, then that device will convert back to 1080p.

But it's also easy enough to do it in any editor.

vincent_ l wrote:

Looking through the D800 user guide they only mention 1080i as an option (page 257).

http://www.nikonusa.com/pdf/manuals/dslr/D800_EN.pdf

This video created with the HDMI output also used 1080i.

http://www.eoshd.com/content/7489/first-test-of-nikon-d800-hdmi-output

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marike6
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Re: Is 1080p Possible with D800 HDMI Output ?
In reply to geronimo, Mar 24, 2012

Well the AJA Ki Pro Mini referenced in the link Bob provided looks like a nice small field recorder, that unlike the Atomos Ninja and Hyperdeck Shuttle which use SSD media, takes 2 CF Cards and records directly to Apple ProRes 422, my favorite codec by far.

The only problem is the AJA Ki Pro Mini double the price of the Ninja. It is $1899 but of course you can use all your CF cards, and don't need to buy SSD drives.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/735435-REG/AJA_KI_PRO_MINI_R0_Ki_Pro_Mini_Compact.html

I'm probably going to pick up an Atomos Ninja, but the Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 looks tough to beat for the price. No field monitor like the Ninja however.

Nice post. Thanks for everyone's research and comments.

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bob elkind
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YES: Is 1080p Possible with D800 HDMI Output ?
In reply to geronimo, Mar 24, 2012

geronimo wrote:

If it's like the D4 (and I assume it is), it will be 1080p output in a 1080i wrapper.

If you are suggesting that the D4 and D800 are incapable of 1080p HDMI output, you are completely mistaken. Please read my previous posts in this thread.

If you are exporting to an external recording device like the Ninja/Samurai, then that device will convert back to 1080p.

With 24p you will definitely need to remove the extra frames added to the 24p to get the signal to 50i or 60i. The Samurai will be able to do this on-board in real-time, but if you’re using a Ninja, you’ll have to do this pulldown removal in software.

  • Without a proprietary signaling system of pulldown markers, 3:2 pulldown and reverse 3:2 pulldown is not lossless.

But it's also easy enough to do it in any editor.

The process is not lossless, and motion artifacts are the likely result.

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ewelch
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Re: Is 1080p Possible with D800 HDMI Output ?
In reply to vincent__l, Mar 24, 2012

Yes you can get 1080P, but you have to do it the same way as with the D4. Pull your cards from the camera, hook it to an external device with HDMI and you can get up to 1080P 29.97fps, 4,2,2 video. I did it yesterday with a vid guy at work and his device which I don't know the name of. It can be used with any vid source. Such as Red cameras. It can tell you what is coming out of the camera. We set it for 23.97 fps (people normally call it 24fps) and we got stunning results. Gorgeous shallow DOF with the 24-70.

But using CF or SD cards, you get at best 1080i, and it's not clean. There is in-camera processing as it's written to the card.
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ewelch
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Re: Is 1080p Possible with D800 HDMI Output ?
In reply to PicMax, Mar 24, 2012

OTA broadcasts can be 1080p. LA and San Diego have it at some stations.

PicMax wrote:

Interesting. Nikon claims broadcast quality video. I dont think there is 1080p broadcast yet.

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Brad Morris
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Re: YES: Is 1080p Possible with D800 HDMI Output ?
In reply to bob elkind, Mar 24, 2012

bob elkind wrote:

geronimo wrote:

If it's like the D4 (and I assume it is), it will be 1080p output in a 1080i wrapper.

If you are suggesting that the D4 and D800 are incapable of 1080p HDMI output, you are completely mistaken. Please read my previous posts in this thread.

If you are exporting to an external recording device like the Ninja/Samurai, then that device will convert back to 1080p.

With 24p you will definitely need to remove the extra frames added to the 24p to get the signal to 50i or 60i. The Samurai will be able to do this on-board in real-time, but if you’re using a Ninja, you’ll have to do this pulldown removal in software.

  • Without a proprietary signaling system of pulldown markers, 3:2 pulldown and reverse 3:2 pulldown is not lossless.

For broadcast you are correct. you get half an image in one side of the frame and the other half on the other side of the frame that is put back together in the TV or other recording device so that they can save bandwidth over the air or on a multi channel cable system. For output from a device such as D4/D800 that does not have the same bandwidth limitations, the signal is a progressive signal wrapped up in an interlaced frame. The two 1/2 (or 3:2 for 24p) are replicas of the original frame saved into the container as padding. Not half one frame then the other half to make up a full image as you are assuming.

pull down, when the interlaced components of each frame are replicas of each means that you loose nothing during the conversion other. If you save a broadcast 1080i stream from your cable TV or Free to air broadcast, you will get losses during the conversion because all the data is not contained in each half if the frame signal

But it's also easy enough to do it in any editor.

The process is not lossless, and motion artifacts are the likely result.

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rungabic
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Re: Is 1080p Possible with D800 HDMI Output ?
In reply to ewelch, Mar 24, 2012

ewelch wrote:

Yes you can get 1080P, but you have to do it the same way as with the D4. Pull your cards from the camera, hook it to an external device with HDMI and you can get up to 1080P 29.97fps, 4,2,2 video. I did it yesterday with a vid guy at work and his device which I don't know the name of.

I just asked this in another thread -- what's this about having to pull the cards from the camera? Is this actually necessary, or are people just doing this show off that they're recording externally? I can't see any legitimate theoretical reason one should need to pull the cards, and I've never heard references to this until now.

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bob elkind
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Re: YES: Is 1080p Possible with D800 HDMI Output ?
In reply to Brad Morris, Mar 24, 2012

Brad Morris wrote:

bob elkind wrote:

  • Without a proprietary signaling system of pulldown markers, 3:2 pulldown and reverse 3:2 pulldown is not lossless.

For broadcast you are correct.

Interlaced video is not limited to "broadcast". It is in use every day for program acquisition, distribution, editing, storage and retrieval, etc. etc.

you get half an image in one side of the frame and the other half on the other side of the frame that is put back together in the TV or other recording device so that they can save bandwidth over the air or on a multi channel cable system.

Interlace was developed as a means of reducing perceived flicker in analogue (CRT) display systems. I'm sure the Wikipedia article for NTSC would be a helpful reference for you.

As for bandwidth, the data rates for 1080i60 1080p30, 1080p25, and 1080p24 are identical.

When the High Definition Television formats were being developed, a group of companies led by Sony championed 1050-line (double the lines of 525/60 systems) and 1250-line (double the lines of 625/50 systems) interlaced high-def video signal formats. At the same time, RCA/Sarnoff/Zenith were championing 720p60 for high-def. The two camps formed an industry group to work out compromises. This group came to be known as the "Grand Alliance". 720p60 was retained in the final set of standards. The two interlaced formats were merged into a single 1125-line interlaced format, which we now call 1080i50/60.

At the time of the Grand Alliance, television displays were analogue, not digital. Interlaced formats were preferred as a less radical transition from standard def interlaced analogue technology of the 1980s and 1990s. Remember, "new" video and "old" video were being edited together during the transition period, so a common understanding of fields and frames helped smooth the cost and simplified video equipment designs and television "infrastructure".

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bob elkind
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Pull the cards for HDMI uncompressed
In reply to rungabic, Mar 24, 2012

rungabic wrote:

I just asked this in another thread -- what's this about having to pull the cards from the camera? Is this actually necessary, or are people just doing this show off that they're recording externally? I can't see any legitimate theoretical reason one should need to pull the cards, and I've never heard references to this until now.

Take a deep breath.

The D4 and D800 normally compress 1.5Gbits/sec video down to 24Mbits per second video for storage on memory cards. The compressor, or codec, system is called h.264 (wikipedia has a pretty good article on this subject).

When recording to memory cards, the HDMI output is used as a "review" or "monitor" port.

If you pull the memory cards when capturing live video, the camera understands that

  1. h.264 compression of the video is not needed

  2. the HDMI port is used for recording, not display or review

  3. pristine video (uncompressed) is directed to the HDMI port.

The presence or absence of memory cards is a user selection, as far as the D4 and D800 are concerned, instead of a menu selection or knob position.
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Cliff Fujii
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Re: Is 1080p Possible with D800 HDMI Output ?
In reply to vincent__l, Mar 24, 2012

Check on p.70 on movie settings, it shows that you have three options for 1920x1080 in Movie Settings, 30fps, 25fps, and 24fps.

they also talk about it on p.210, p.258, and p.406 of the English USA manual.

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Brad Morris
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Re: YES: Is 1080p Possible with D800 HDMI Output ?
In reply to bob elkind, Mar 24, 2012

bob elkind wrote:

Brad Morris wrote:

bob elkind wrote:

  • Without a proprietary signaling system of pulldown markers, 3:2 pulldown and reverse 3:2 pulldown is not lossless.

For broadcast you are correct.

Interlaced video is not limited to "broadcast". It is in use every day for program acquisition, distribution, editing, storage and retrieval, etc. etc.

I never said it was limited to broadcast. Though it does date back to analog transmission days with CRT receivers. In those days they sent half the picture in one segment then the other half in another segment at double the frequency of the frame rate. The standard definition signal was projected on the CRT with alternating segments at double the frequency of teh frame rate to create a movnig image on the screen.

With digital video in 25p in a 50i wrapper or 30p in a 60i wrapper, depending on PAL or NTSC format, you end up with a video stream where each of the interlaced segments are exact replicas of each other, not a copy of every second line like an analog signal. you will lose absolutely nothing during a pull down as the process simply drops the duplicate segments of the frame. It doesn't alter the fact that all camera HDMI output capture devices output in a 1080i wrapper. I don't know how much more simply or succinctly I can give you the correct answer.

It doesn't mean that you cannot save 1080/24 or 25 or 30p as captured by the camera by a quality higher end HDMI recorder to the storage as the recorder just unwraps the video stream from the 1080i wrapper before it saves the video to the storage in a progressive format.

you get half an image in one side of the frame and the other half on the other side of the frame that is put back together in the TV or other recording device so that they can save bandwidth over the air or on a multi channel cable system.

Interlace was developed as a means of reducing perceived flicker in analogue (CRT) display systems. I'm sure the Wikipedia article for NTSC would be a helpful reference for you.

As for bandwidth, the data rates for 1080i60 1080p30, 1080p25, and 1080p24 are identical.

When the High Definition Television formats were being developed, a group of companies led by Sony championed 1050-line (double the lines of 525/60 systems) and 1250-line (double the lines of 625/50 systems) interlaced high-def video signal formats. At the same time, RCA/Sarnoff/Zenith were championing 720p60 for high-def. The two camps formed an industry group to work out compromises. This group came to be known as the "Grand Alliance". 720p60 was retained in the final set of standards. The two interlaced formats were merged into a single 1125-line interlaced format, which we now call 1080i50/60.

At the time of the Grand Alliance, television displays were analogue, not digital. Interlaced formats were preferred as a less radical transition from standard def interlaced analogue technology of the 1980s and 1990s. Remember, "new" video and "old" video were being edited together during the transition period, so a common understanding of fields and frames helped smooth the cost and simplified video equipment designs and television "infrastructure".

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