Proposed Changes to Challenges: Community Discussion

Started Mar 15, 2012 | Discussions
jrtrent
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Re: some good, and some very chilling, ideas
In reply to outer segment, Mar 16, 2012

outer segment wrote:

If you don't give out low scores on images you don't like and you wait for others to do the "dirty work" then you should not be surprised if these images end up top-ranked, ahead of those you think deserve the good ranks ...

Well, I don't really care where an image ends up in terms of the rankings; that is, my goal is not to see to it that my favorite wins. I just want to cast an opinion, like other voters cast theirs. We all have different aesthetic tastes, and we'll not agree on how well an image matches the theme, either. Sometimes the ones I like place high, and sometimes they place low. Wherever an image ends up, my vote is just to tell the person who took it that at least one person thought that it was a great shot.

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liya
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Re: Proposed Changes to Challenges: Community Discussion
In reply to Scott Everett, Mar 16, 2012

I think these are great changes. I like the idea of weighing votes of people rating the entire challenge more than those voting for a single photo. This would mitigate the facebook problem.
I did miss the challenge stats.

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RaptorUK
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Re: Proposed Changes to Challenges: Community Discussion
In reply to Scott Everett, Mar 16, 2012

Hi Scott, my comments below inline . . .

Scott Everett wrote:

Immediate Changes:

Voting Changes

  • Enable challenge entrants to vote on the challenges they enter, but not on their own entry

It worries me a little that this is proposed here . . . this is how things work already . . .

  • Introduce rollover help text for each voting level to display a description of what that score means (essentially, standardized scoring levels/meanings)

Great, I assume that this page will also be updated to convey a consistent message ?

http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Help/ChallengesHelp_01.htm#judging_guide

  • Introduce a button to allow voters to flag an entry as not fitting the challenge theme. After certain # of flags is reached, the entry is put on probation for the host to review.

OK, but isn't that also the function of the Complain button ?

  • Revise voting algorithm to account for partial voting and full voting by a single voter. In other words, votes cast by users that vote on entire set of images are given higher weighting than votes cast by users that vote on less or single entries.

The algorithm is not the problem . . . the whole voting method is the problem. There is no point tinkering with something that is fundamentally broken. (suggested replacement follows further on)

Challenge Structure Changes

  • Introduction of an additional challenge type that the host chooses when creating a new challenge: the host can choose the challenge winner (removing the public vote)

This is a very bad idea . . . bearing in mind how Hosts are selected . . . i.e. do they have a pulse ? many Hosts should not be Hosts, allowing them to be judge and jury is adding to an existing problem.

Please put in a mechanism whereby we can report BAD Hosts and get them removed . . . please spell out clearly what is expected of Hosts . . . PLEASE.

  • Addition of optional challenge constraints on who can enter the challenge (selectable by challenge host): Minimum # of challenges entered

If all Hosts applied this by default new Entrants would not be able to enter any Challenges . . . please DO NOT do this. What does this aim to fix ?

Would the policing of it be done by the software or by the Host ? can you please confirm ?

  • Addition of optional challenge constraint on who can vote on the challenge: Minimum # of challenges entered , and/or, minimum # of votes cast

Yes, please do this, but don't make it optional make it mandatory . . . and by # of challenges entered, not by votes cast, voting is taken care of in the next point.

  • Ability to limit challenge voting to contestants in the challenge

Don't limit the voting . . . we need more votes . . . make voting mandatory by ALL entrants in a Challenge, and then allow voting as above, by people that have previous entered some Challenges. (specific number to be determined) this fixes soliciting of votes.

To summarise the points above . . . anyone can be an Entrant, only Entrants can be Voters, all Entrants MUST be Voters in the Challenges they have entered.

  • Introduction of monthly Dpr hosted challenges with giveaways (more info to come)

Please . . . can these be regarded as separate entities and not counted in any of the qualifying figures above ? Please . . .

Challenge Host Features

  • Add the ability for a host to see a voter's vote spread (histogram), and the ability to disqualify from this interface (if there is suspicious voting). A single page would display all voters at once, displaying name, # of votes, histogram of distribution of votes.

NO, very bad idea, as mentioned already many Hosts should not be Hosts, they cannot apply this responsibility correctly or reliably . . . but YES PLEASE to the displaying of the voters real ID . . . that is what you meant ? please, please provide this. Then also provide a working mechanism where Hosts can report inappropriate voting to DPR for dealing with . . . and please deal with these people visibly to act as a deterrent to others.

  • Create a requirement for hosts to leave a comment on entries they disqualify (and make it visible to disqualified user)

Yes please . . . I assumed all Hosts would do this anyway . . . maybe just get rid of Hosts that don't do it ?

What about entries belonging to CHEATS ? Can they be kept in Challenges but water marked as Entrant found cheating and has been BANNED

Please remove the functionality whereby Entrants can withdraw after voting has started . . . they have taken the place of an alternative Entrant, they should not be allowed to withdraw from that place when it is too late for someone else to take it.

continued on next post . . . .

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RaptorUK
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Re: Proposed Changes to Challenges: Community Discussion
In reply to Scott Everett, Mar 16, 2012

. . . continued . . .

General Changes

  • Ability for users to re-title their image and fix typos in image description (only before voting)

Excellent, I have had to withdraw an image multiple times and re-submit due to typos.

  • Ability for users to fill in EXIF data only when it is not automatically identified by DPR, and only before voting

Yes . . . . but please specifically DO NOT allow this in Challenges where there is a date restriction.

  • Re-introduce challenge stats for users, with expanded view of data

Would be nice but low priority IMO.

  • Make photo description visible (and toggle-able) in slideshow view

Again, low priority.

  • Create a challenges search and explore page to enable users and visitors to scan challenge winners and contestants.

Again, low priority.

  • Enable users to "favorite" photos, and then see those photos in a single page.

Again, low priority.

  • Remove social buttons from voting pages (but keep on winners pages, and on challenge overview pages)

YES ! ! Thank you, please do it NOW. Not just submissions that are in the voting stage, also submissions in the submission stage . . . this is probably what you mean.

Please . . . can we have some Challenge rules ? we have none at the moment . . . we need a page of Rules and a page of FAQs . . . and in these rules can it say that:

  1. soliciting for votes is not allowed

  2. multiple user IDs are not allowed

  3. any entries to Challenges MUST be the work of the Entrant.

  4. etc.

  • Introduction of a cap on the # of challenge slots available each week (to prevent too many chalenges from being created, and to hopefully increase activity in existing challenges)

Yes . . . or just cull the bad Hosts . . .

Medium/long Term Changes:

  • creation of a new voting system that enables voters to view all entries in a new lightbox format, and then check off photos seen in full size that they wish to place in a top 5 or top 10 selection (photos marked for exclusion from top 10 would become slightly grayed out). Scoring would then be point driven, # of appearances in a top ten would determine # of points awarded. This format would de-emphasize the power of a single voter, but would likely require more voters to be effective. This format would also need new weighting algorithm to be created.

This cannot not be Medium or Long term . . . you don't have time, this needs doing with highest priority .

Why not let each voter pick their top x (3, 5, 10) ? it's easy to code, easy to vote and quick too . . .

  • Creation of a challenge ideas voting board (akin to Digg, stackoverflow, etc..), allowing the community to propose challenge ideas, and then vote on which ideas get move into an active challenge first. In combination with the proposed cap on # of weekly challenges, the goal with his would be to ensure the most popular challenges ideas were running at all times.

I would prefer to see guidance given to Hosts on how to choose a Challenge idea, how to phrase the Challenge Title, the Challenge description and the Challenge rules . . . currently there is no guidance at all !

  • introduction of some variation of user levels driven by activity (voting, challenge entries, hosting). Goal would be to recognize valuable members of the community. The scope and approach to this is still just a brainstorm on our side.

This is a very good idea . . . there are some excellent Hosts that put in a lot of effort and time and care about their Challenges, they should be recognized.

In terms of next steps, we'd like to begin working on some of the short term changes in the next few weeks. But before we do that, I'd like to get some feedback on what is outlined above, probably answer some questions, and boil down the list to what feels like the best mix of updates.

Please Scott . . . . . you have not addressed the burning issue of CHEATs that have been identified . . . . what are you going to do with them ? as time goes by these CHEATS are entering more Challenges . . . this isn't fair.

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Slynky
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Re: Proposed Changes to Challenges: Community Discussion
In reply to RaptorUK, Mar 16, 2012

For Raptor...

In regards to the (paraphrasing) "Things that can be done soon" and "The things that can be accomplished in a longer period of time", I'm guessing Scott has settled on some quick fixes (that can be done in a week or two) for voting but that ultimately, the method of voting will change to picking top 5, 10, etc.

IF this is correct, I see nothing with fixing what we have if it can be done quickly and then receiving the new method of voting later...say 3-4 months down the road.
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Scott Everett
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Keep the feedback coming, really useful!
In reply to Scott Everett, Mar 16, 2012

Hey all,

Someone mentioned above that I should have broken this up into several thematic threads, which is actually a great idea. I'm reading through your feedback, and also I've received a bunch of PMs with more feedback. As I expected, some of these ideas ware creating passionate responses, both positive and negative.

My goal is to boil down the prevailing opinions where they exist, and then also identify areas where there is much polarity, and come back to you all with second, more narrow iteration. When I do that, I will use a few threads to break it up.

Thanks again for taking the time to provide feedback.

-Scott

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Deleted pending purge
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Re: Proposed Changes to Challenges: Community Discussion
In reply to Scott Everett, Mar 16, 2012

Immediate Changes:

Voting Changes

  • Enable challenge entrants to vote on the challenges they enter, but not on their own entry

OK, like it works now.

  • Introduce rollover help text for each voting level to display a description of what that score means (essentially, standardized scoring levels/meanings)

OK, standardizing this might help, provided that voters pay attention to it.

  • Introduce a button to allow voters to flag an entry as not fitting the challenge theme. After certain # of flags is reached, the entry is put on probation for the host to review.

I presume this would exclude giving 0.5 votes for the same purpose? The voting scale should be therefore used exclusively for picture quality.

  • Revise voting algorithm to account for partial voting and full voting by a single voter. In other words, votes cast by users that vote on entire set of images are given higher weighting than votes cast by users that vote on less or single entries.

Even partial voting should span at least 10% of the entries quantity to register, IMO. People giving solitary votes for some entry should be discouraged from doing this, and we know why.

Challenge Structure Changes

  • Introduction of an additional challenge type that the host chooses when creating a new challenge: the host can choose the challenge winner (removing the public vote)

Good. If ticked, then the voting phase should neither appear nor last for another week, since Host can decide the winner(s?) in much less time (say, two days). Is the Host to choose only one overall winner, or first three, or will s/he have to arrange the whole top-list?). My suggestion would be - just the first three.

  • Addition of optional challenge constraints on who can enter the challenge (selectable by challenge host): Minimum # of challenges entered

OK. Will depend upon the challenge aim and the host. Settable #s, please.

  • Addition of optional challenge constraint on who can vote on the challenge: Minimum # of challenges entered, and/or, minimum # of votes cast

OK. The #s should be settable by Host too.

  • Ability to limit challenge voting to contestants in the challenge

OK.

  • Introduction of monthly Dpr hosted challenges with giveaways (more info to come)

Nice feature. I presume you're planning downloadable "awards" (per personalized code unlock?). Include the possible choice (for Win and Mac users, for instance). If you think about hardware, offer some choice in the same value range, to suit the usability (memory card type, etc).

Challenge Host Features

  • Add the ability for a host to see a voter's vote spread (histogram)...

Please take care that the rolldown / list isn't covered by some other field (like the anon code voting pattern which is partially obscured by the comment field).

  • Create a requirement for hosts to leave a comment on entries they disqualify (and make it visible to disqualified user)

Good. It should've been used all along, it's ony polite.

General Changes

  • Ability for users to re-title their image and fix typos in image description (only before voting)

IMO, the proper title should be mandatory (instead of camera code). Editing should be possible.

  • Ability for users to fill in EXIF data ...

Hmm... OK, I guess. This is tricky, since the metadata can't be checked. But then, there should not be such options if the "date taken" is restricted to after the announcement date. Those challenges should then only accept the original EXIF (which has to exist).
...
...
OK.

  • Enable users to "favorite" photos, and then see those photos in a single page.

OK, but do add a shield against downloading of members' ( copyrighted ) work by means of protective layer (1x1px GIF over the whole picture area, the way NASA and some others do). If someone wants a copy, they should contact the author in order to obtain it, and not steal it from the DPR page. This (or any other effective) protection should apply to users' galleries as well.

  • Remove social buttons ...

Said buttons should be deactivated (grayed-over) or removed from all phases of all Challenges until these enter their Exhibition phase. The above described protection should apply even there at all times.

  • Introduction of a cap on the # of challenge slots ...

Also see whether some hosts can open/create new series upon one of the allowed two hosted series end. To me it wasn't clear, I never got any advice when I asked for it... so I re-edited the finishing series to create a new one (which is obviously wrong, since the finishing serial changed, and the new one's description changed the former one. In the same time, the serial number of the first challenge in the new series continued from the finished one, instead of starting with #1...)

Medium/long Term Changes:

  • creation of a new voting system ...

Good, but it'll have to be tested to see if it works as imagined.

  • Creation of a challenge ideas voting board ...

Good. While at it, please open a "Hosts only" forum (available to active hosts, invisible to others) - this would simplify some sensitive data and information exchange.\

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RaptorUK
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Re: Proposed Changes to Challenges: Community Discussion
In reply to Slynky, Mar 16, 2012

Slynky wrote:

For Raptor...

In regards to the (paraphrasing) "Things that can be done soon" and "The things that can be accomplished in a longer period of time", I'm guessing Scott has settled on some quick fixes (that can be done in a week or two) for voting but that ultimately, the method of voting will change to picking top 5, 10, etc.

I hope Scott hasn't yet settled on anything otherwise asking for comments would be a waste of our time and his . . . I don't think that is the case though otherwise I wouldn't have commented.

IF this is correct, I see nothing [ wrong ] with fixing what we have if it can be done quickly and then receiving the new method of voting later...say 3-4 months down the road.

I don't think what we have can be fixed . . . FB and Twitter links can be removed, yes . . . I would rather nothing be done now and all efforts were put into one proper fix of the issues, maybe the Challenges should be suspended while work goes on . . .

I see some hope in what Scott has written, I have tried to be positive . . . I also see some problems with some of the changes that would make things worse, for example, making Hosts judges is such a bad idea. A Host should be similar to a Moderator . . . effective yet conspicuous by their absence . . . when they do a good job they shouldn't be noticed. Making a Host a judge brings them to the fore and makes the Challenge about them in the end . . . it will encourage the wrong kind of people to apply to become Hosts.

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happy snapper uk
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Re: Proposed Changes to Challenges: Community Discussion
In reply to RaptorUK, Mar 16, 2012

The algorithm is not the problem . . . the whole voting method is the problem. There is no point tinkering with something that is fundamentally broken. (suggested replacement follows further on)

Why have algorithms in the 1st place just bending the vote

Just an additive voting system is better ..Every vote no matter how small adds to a persons score so no point in sandbagging low votes as it only adds to a score.Apart from that I agree with Rapter uk

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fouad6
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Re: Proposed Changes to Challenges: Community Discussion
In reply to Scott Everett, Mar 16, 2012

Great to see you are working on changes to improve the Challenges and the fairness of voting.

1) remove Facebook/twitter from having any input in voting. Challenges should be voted upon based on photographic ability not social networking ability.

2) It is almost impossible for people to vote fairly when they themselves have entered a challenge. Either a participant should not vote (see next point) for any entries in a challenge or the ID of every voter should be visible with the vote they cast.

3) No more challenges with 100 or 200 entry limits. Max 50 so that there will be plenty of non entrants to be able to vote. The same challenge can be repeated in a few days with a stipulation that none of those who entered previously can enter and only new entrants can, so everyone gets a chance to enter and vote more fairly in a challenge that they did not enter their own "masterpiece".

4) Limiting the number of entries to around 50 will also make it easier for voters to vote for all entries more easily.

5) Hosts should have the ability/duty to remove any votes that are obviously malicious.

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Slynky
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Re: Proposed Changes to Challenges: Community Discussion
In reply to happy snapper uk, Mar 16, 2012

I won't pretend to know the algorithm BUT, I think they have their uses. Algorithms, for example, are what are in play when a computer plays chess.

I think, though I might be wrong, it's safe to assume a single vote of 5 (or .5) for a photo that has, say, 25 votes all averaging around 2.8 is indicative of something fishy. Therefore, it should receive less "weight" in the final computation.

If this same image receives, say, 10 5's, then I'd say those 5's have more credibility and each 5 should weigh more than the 5 above.

I would say one person who came in and voted on 1 photo and gave it a five (even though that same photo had 6 other 5's) is a bit fishy and the 5 from that person should carry a bit less weight.

If you can believe any of what I have said, then you can understand the desire/usefulness of running the votes through an algorithm and not just rely on straight numbers.

Algorithms are nothing more than our best attempt to tell a computer to give more or less credence to votes just as if we were to manually analyze the voting pattern on a particular photo (or by a particular voter) and decide something was fishy.

happy snapper uk wrote:

The algorithm is not the problem . . . the whole voting method is the problem. There is no point tinkering with something that is fundamentally broken. (suggested replacement follows further on)

Why have algorithms in the 1st place just bending the vote

Just an additive voting system is better ..Every vote no matter how small adds to a persons score so no point in sandbagging low votes as it only adds to a score.Apart from that I agree with Rapter uk

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Slynky
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Re: Proposed Changes to Challenges: Community Discussion
In reply to fouad6, Mar 16, 2012

If a limit is going to be proposed, I would suggest 75. I've seen 50 fill up in a day.
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VadymA
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Re: Keep the feedback coming, really useful!
In reply to Scott Everett, Mar 16, 2012

I just wanted to copy-paste my suggestions from the "cheating" thread as I think they are worth consideration due to technical simplicity and potential positive impact on "cleaner" votes (especially the second alternative):

a) Make challenges totally anonymous and disable challenge pages in individual profiles from public viewing. This suggestion is based on assumption that the majority of cheaters are those who want to show off by making their challenge pages filled with winning entries. Removing names from the challenges and making challenge pages in individual profiles invisible should reduce the ability to show off for the winners and make it less interesting to cheat. The time and efforts spent on cheating would not be worth it since the cheaters will not be able to "enjoy" their victories in public.

b) The alternative solution is to provide visibility to the voting history for every entry with login names of all voters and their votes. In other words everyone should be able to go to any challenge entry and see the list of those who voted for it and how many stars they gave. This would allow quickly identify unethical trends in the votes and also may discourage sandbagging since the names of people who voted down the competitors will be visible to everyone causing potential conflicts or embarrassment.

Sorry if this is slightly off topic regarding particular changes discussed in this thread.

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Slynky
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Re: Keep the feedback coming, really useful!
In reply to VadymA, Mar 16, 2012

Right off the cuff, I think you're going to find a lot of people who think voting should be anonymous (to the general public). It's a routine guideline in just about any voting situation.

For starters, I wouldn't want people to be inspecting who gave low marks on their photo and then starting some sort of vendetta against that voter (assuming they could identify that voter's entries).

VadymA wrote:

I just wanted to copy-paste my suggestions from the "cheating" thread as I think they are worth consideration due to technical simplicity and potential positive impact on "cleaner" votes (especially the second alternative):

a) Make challenges totally anonymous and disable challenge pages in individual profiles from public viewing. This suggestion is based on assumption that the majority of cheaters are those who want to show off by making their challenge pages filled with winning entries. Removing names from the challenges and making challenge pages in individual profiles invisible should reduce the ability to show off for the winners and make it less interesting to cheat. The time and efforts spent on cheating would not be worth it since the cheaters will not be able to "enjoy" their victories in public.

b) The alternative solution is to provide visibility to the voting history for every entry with login names of all voters and their votes. In other words everyone should be able to go to any challenge entry and see the list of those who voted for it and how many stars they gave. This would allow quickly identify unethical trends in the votes and also may discourage sandbagging since the names of people who voted down the competitors will be visible to everyone causing potential conflicts or embarrassment.

Sorry if this is slightly off topic regarding particular changes discussed in this thread.
--

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chdc
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Re: Keep the feedback coming, really useful!
In reply to Scott Everett, Mar 16, 2012

My suggestions:
1. Reduce the number of challenges and challenge hosting.
2. Standardize entry numbers per challenge and image sizes.
3. One image, one challenge. ‘No Recycling’, as one host said.
4. Remove voting option from thumbnail view.

5. Make it possible to view entrant’s name in the thumbnail view on completion of the voting.

6. Remove secrecy from voting and bring in transparency. Everybody should know who voted which image with how many stars. It would certainly reduce unethical voting/cheating.

And for a long-term measure:

7. Consider the feasibility of replacing present system of star-ratings with comments. This will drive cheaters away.

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l_objectif
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In reply to Slynky, Mar 16, 2012

+2
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Mike Ronesia
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Re: Proposed Changes to Challenges: Community Discussion
In reply to RaptorUK, Mar 16, 2012

RaptorUK wrote:

  • Ability to limit challenge voting to contestants in the challenge

Don't limit the voting . . . we need more votes . . . make voting mandatory by ALL entrants in a Challenge, and then allow voting as above, by people that have previous entered some Challenges. (specific number to be determined) this fixes soliciting of votes.

To summarise the points above . . . anyone can be an Entrant, only Entrants can be Voters, all Entrants MUST be Voters in the Challenges they have entered.

This is the biggest problem we have right now and should be stopped not made mandatory.

If you did this I would not enter. As a host every time I analyze voting anomalies I find more problems with entrants sandbagging other in the challenge then anything else. I see a lot of what I call mild sandbagging. It's not as obvious but people will give mainly better photos a 2 or 2.5. I know everyone has different opinions but many people will never give an honest vote to someone they think might beat them. This is way more of a problem then "friend" votes IMO.

I still think the better option is to make it mandatory to cast votes in another challenge that you are not in to gain entry into a challenge. It could be as low as 10 votes or as high as doing a complete challenge but must be in another challenge. This is how I try to balance my time in the challenges. I never worry about anyone thinking I might be less then honest with the votes I cast.

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RaptorUK
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Re: Proposed Changes to Challenges: Community Discussion
In reply to Mike Ronesia, Mar 16, 2012

Mike Ronesia wrote:

RaptorUK wrote:

  • Ability to limit challenge voting to contestants in the challenge

Don't limit the voting . . . we need more votes . . . make voting mandatory by ALL entrants in a Challenge, and then allow voting as above, by people that have previous entered some Challenges. (specific number to be determined) this fixes soliciting of votes.

To summarise the points above . . . anyone can be an Entrant, only Entrants can be Voters, all Entrants MUST be Voters in the Challenges they have entered.

This is the biggest problem we have right now and should be stopped not made mandatory.

No it isn't, the biggest problem is people voting unfairly . . . the cause is the people and where found out need to be removed from the system . . . BANNED.

If you did this I would not enter. As a host every time I analyze voting anomalies I find more problems with entrants sandbagging other in the challenge then anything else. I see a lot of what I call mild sandbagging. It's not as obvious but people will give mainly better photos a 2 or 2.5. I know everyone has different opinions but many people will never give an honest vote to someone they think might beat them. This is way more of a problem then "friend" votes IMO.

Sandbagging is allowed by the system, change the system.

The reason for making Entrants vote in the Challenges they have entered is to guarantee a minimum vote quantity . . . more votes mean a more representative outcome. This in conjunction with a ranking system of voting (rank top 5 or top 10 or even top 3) rather than a scoring system there would be virtually no sandbagging. It would also mean that an entry that I voted in 1st place would receive the same score from me as an entry that you or anyone else voted in 1st place . . . all our 1st place votes would carry equal weighting and there would at last be some consistency between voters.

I still think the better option is to make it mandatory to cast votes in another challenge that you are not in to gain entry into a challenge. It could be as low as 10 votes or as high as doing a complete challenge but must be in another challenge. This is how I try to balance my time in the challenges. I never worry about anyone thinking I might be less then honest with the votes I cast.

I enter Challenges I am interested in . . . why on earth does it make sense for me to vote on a Challenge that I have no interest in and no experience in the subject of the Challenge ? It is very simple to mandate that I vote in a Challenge I enter . . . if I don't vote in it my Entry is removed . . . how do you do that with other Challenges that start/finish at different times ?

If you can't be objective voting in a Challenge that you have entered then you can't be objective and shouldn't be entering Challenges and voting in others. I don't believe you can't be objective though . . . I think you have scruples.

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Slynky
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Re: Proposed Changes to Challenges: Community Discussion
In reply to RaptorUK, Mar 16, 2012

RaptorUK wrote:

Mike Ronesia wrote:

RaptorUK wrote:

  • Ability to limit challenge voting to contestants in the challenge

Don't limit the voting . . . we need more votes . . . make voting mandatory by ALL entrants in a Challenge, and then allow voting as above, by people that have previous entered some Challenges. (specific number to be determined) this fixes soliciting of votes.

To summarise the points above . . . anyone can be an Entrant, only Entrants can be Voters, all Entrants MUST be Voters in the Challenges they have entered.

This is the biggest problem we have right now and should be stopped not made mandatory.

No it isn't, the biggest problem is people voting unfairly . . . the cause is the people and where found out need to be removed from the system . . . BANNED.

If you did this I would not enter. As a host every time I analyze voting anomalies I find more problems with entrants sandbagging other in the challenge then anything else. I see a lot of what I call mild sandbagging. It's not as obvious but people will give mainly better photos a 2 or 2.5. I know everyone has different opinions but many people will never give an honest vote to someone they think might beat them. This is way more of a problem then "friend" votes IMO.

Sandbagging is allowed by the system, change the system.

The reason for making Entrants vote in the Challenges they have entered is to guarantee a minimum vote quantity . . . more votes mean a more representative outcome. This in conjunction with a ranking system of voting (rank top 5 or top 10 or even top 3) rather than a scoring system there would be virtually no sandbagging. It would also mean that an entry that I voted in 1st place would receive the same score from me as an entry that you or anyone else voted in 1st place . . . all our 1st place votes would carry equal weighting and there would at last be some consistency between voters.

I still think the better option is to make it mandatory to cast votes in another challenge that you are not in to gain entry into a challenge. It could be as low as 10 votes or as high as doing a complete challenge but must be in another challenge. This is how I try to balance my time in the challenges. I never worry about anyone thinking I might be less then honest with the votes I cast.

I enter Challenges I am interested in . . . why on earth does it make sense for me to vote on a Challenge that I have no interest in and no experience in the subject of the Challenge ? It is very simple to mandate that I vote in a Challenge I enter . . . if I don't vote in it my Entry is removed . . . how do you do that with other Challenges that start/finish at different times ?

If you can't be objective voting in a Challenge that you have entered then you can't be objective and shouldn't be entering Challenges and voting in others. I don't believe you can't be objective though . . . I think you have scruples.

It's not Mike I'm worried about. It's the other people who have had their other avenues to cheating reduced. As we already know, the challenges have too many people who find ways to get their photo in 1st place (other than photographic talent). Forcing these people to vote in the same challenge they have entered is like inviting the fox into the hen house.

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DK Baker
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Re: Keep the feedback coming, really useful!
In reply to Scott Everett, Mar 16, 2012

A couple of thoughts ~

Dislike the "Probation Flag" button - too easy to become another negative method of sabotaging entries (like giving them a 0.5 vote).

Would like to see the "Date Created" field to be an option for the Challenge Host - if the entry can enter that date, if not automatically populated by the image exif data. It's too easy to strip exif data and then submit - to circumvent the host capture date rule.

Would also like to be able to search Challenges by the host.

For voting - it would be extremely helpful to keep the image view a consistent size (minimize the amount of scrolling to view and vote). In the slideshow view, the image icons at the bottom obscure part of the image - can that be fixed?

Can you possibly remove the top banner ads from the individual challenge entry view pages? Remove it totally or move it to the side? Do they really need to be on every single page? It's so tedious, even with the shortcut keys.

My last thought is for some additional tools for voters to provide feedback to the entrant - some basic checkboxes and/or textboxes - maybe like: IQ, Composition, On-topic, etc.

Looking forward to seeing the changes!!

Thanks ~

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