Nokia camera phone worthy of talk?

Started Feb 28, 2012 | Discussions
nellydesign
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Nokia camera phone worthy of talk?
Feb 28, 2012

So Nokia unveiled the 808 Pureview camera phone with a 41 MP camera (Zeiss optics) that claims to use pixel manipulation processing to compress the extra pixels and eliminate noise in a less pixel dense image with no artifacts. Is this worth discussing? The samples look pretty amazing.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/02/27/nokia-808-pureview-first-sample-shots-feast-your-eyes/

I know DPreview would be hard pressed to start reviewing camera phones since it would undoubtedly triple or quadruple the number of digital imaging devices. but is this camera phone worth discussing simply for it's unique approach to imaging? Can we see this Nokia techonology being licensed to the likes of Canon or Nikon for their camera lines? Or being used by lower tier camera makers as a way to leap frog the competiton with superior image quality and detail?

gail
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It certainly is!!!
In reply to nellydesign, Feb 28, 2012

nellydesign wrote:

I know DPreview would be hard pressed to start reviewing camera phones since it would undoubtedly triple or quadruple the number of digital imaging devices. but is this camera phone worth discussing simply for it's unique approach to imaging?

Dpreview commented on the iPhone.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0735714500/how-the-iphone-changed-my-photography

And they have done a news story about the 41 mp Nokia 808 smartphone.

However, for years generally, there has been a lot of negative sentiment in the U.S. against Nokia, so we'll see what happens.

Can we see this Nokia techonology being licensed to the likes of Canon or Nikon for their camera lines? Or being used by lower tier camera makers as a way to leap frog the competiton with superior image quality and detail?

For me the question is, is this the end of the compact camera or a new beginning? Personally, I'm getting tired of carrying BOTH a cell phone AND a high-end compact camera in my purse. I want a camera phone (not a phone with a camera)!!

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Marco Nero
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Camera Phones, quality and capabilities...
In reply to gail, Feb 28, 2012

The late Steve Jobs was very adamant about the iPhone having a superior quality camera built in. I have no doubt that Apple will view the new Nokia camera-phone with considerable interest.

The benefits of a richer image detail/dynamic range/image quality should become apparent with these larger sensors although there will be limitations to the lens (which in turn limits the capability of the camera) due to the flat profile required.

I would expect a limitation to be reached in the very near future with such larger sensors and, fortunately for those of you with compact cameras, I don't expect the quality of Camera phone pictures to be able to compete with a quality lens (with a larger physical diameter) coupled with a quality optical zoom mechanism.

But cameras on phones like this new Nokia will no doubt be immensely popular and will eventually eat deeply into the sales of digital compact cameras and even pro-sumer DSLRs and their lucrative lens market. This should have the effect of lowering prices across the board, resulting from fewer sales. This will also very likely kill off a couple of the lesser manufacturers in the coming years unless they can cut costs and compete in other ways.

Don't forget that cameras, sensors and even camera phones have physical and optical limitations that cannot be surpassed even with more advancements in the technology... and some experts are presently arguing that we are presently past that crest of capability in such advances. They claim that any future jumps will require a physical enlargement of the sensors themselves in order to increase image quality beyond what we can presently achieve... and that would mean a much larger phone due to the relationship between larger sensors and their requirements concerning even larger optics.
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nellydesign
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Re: Camera Phones, quality and capabilities...
In reply to Marco Nero, Feb 29, 2012

I see a lot of these physical limitations being overcome by superior software and processing. How important is it to have a full line of lenses when you have the ability to zoom in as much as you need on your giant image and have its quality and detail not diminish? I'm not saying this can be done now but perhaps can be done in the future. Factor in stuff like Lytro's light field shenanigans and I see the possibility of sometime in the future having software that can accurately duplicate shallow depth of field as well. We are already seeing technology's ability to overcome dynamic range issues in the form of in camera HDR. The future is wide open and barriers will come down. Now I'm just being optimistic and have not seen a full review of the Nokia camera phone, so i don't want you to think I'm getting excited about nothing. I just think technology will continue to advance the photographic arts even to the overcoming of what we once thought were insurmountable physical limitations.

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nellydesign
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Re: It certainly is!!!
In reply to gail, Feb 29, 2012

Well, with regards to Nokia, yeah. And this phone won't be helped by being saddled with a Symbian OS. Ridiculous decision for what was to be a flagship device. But the sensor technology, I feel, will progress past this phone.

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snake_b
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Re: It certainly is!!!
In reply to nellydesign, Feb 29, 2012

The sensor type in the 808 has the potential to do a couple things:

-help kill compacts/shrink their marketability

or:

-trickle into compacts, due to the fact that "41MP" sounds like the next step in their MP war and the fact that their dismal IQ at this point is in need of something like this to be worked in.

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Infms
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Re: It certainly is!!!
In reply to nellydesign, Feb 29, 2012

The choice to use Nokia (Symbian) Belle OS was simple: The Broadcom SoC's used by Nokia's Belle OS handsets are capable of handling very high resolution image sensors, whereas the Qualcomm SoC's used by Windows Phone 7 handsets aren't yet.

Nokia (Symbian) Belle OS has turned into something rock-solid and offers all the features found in competing OSes - along with some which aren't. Try it before you knock it.

nellydesign wrote:

Well, with regards to Nokia, yeah. And this phone won't be helped by being saddled with a Symbian OS. Ridiculous decision for what was to be a flagship device. But the sensor technology, I feel, will progress past this phone.

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snake_b
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Re: It certainly is!!!
In reply to Infms, Feb 29, 2012

+1

Infms wrote:

The choice to use Nokia (Symbian) Belle OS was simple: The Broadcom SoC's used by Nokia's Belle OS handsets are capable of handling very high resolution image sensors, whereas the Qualcomm SoC's used by Windows Phone 7 handsets aren't yet.

Nokia (Symbian) Belle OS has turned into something rock-solid and offers all the features found in competing OSes - along with some which aren't. Try it before you knock it.

nellydesign wrote:

Well, with regards to Nokia, yeah. And this phone won't be helped by being saddled with a Symbian OS. Ridiculous decision for what was to be a flagship device. But the sensor technology, I feel, will progress past this phone.

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nellydesign
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Re: It certainly is!!!
In reply to Infms, Feb 29, 2012

I'm sure as an OS, Symbian is fine. The issue isn't function, it's app support and future development. Symbian is dying. Nokia was pretty much the last bastion and they are slowly but surely abandoning it.

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Menneisyys
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Re: It certainly is!!!
In reply to nellydesign, Feb 29, 2012

BTW, guys, don't forget to check out my exclusive stuff from here (Barcelona): http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1046&thread=40764168

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CAcreeks
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WTF is SoC
In reply to Infms, Mar 1, 2012

Infms wrote:

The choice to use Nokia (Symbian) Belle OS was simple: The Broadcom SoC's used by Nokia's Belle OS handsets are capable of handling very high resolution image sensors, whereas the Qualcomm SoC's used by Windows Phone 7 handsets aren't yet.

Just because you use an acronym (SoC) that nobody knows, and can't be searched-for on Google, we should think you know what you're talking about?

Is this System on Chip? If so, I don't see its relevance.

You made the same post in another thread, and it made no sense there either.

Personally I don't care about the phone OS, I just want a good camera, and a flashlight on my cellphone.

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brianlj
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Re: WTF is SoC
In reply to CAcreeks, Mar 1, 2012

Nokia & Microsoft made a decision on what hardware they would use in the new range of Windows Phones. That hardware (& firmware) isn't up to handling the vast amounts of data that the 808 hardware deals with. The 808 is a single phone; Windows is going on to a range of phones so they aren't going to redesign the range just to accommodate a single feature.

At least, not just yet!

Plus, can you imagine the sleek new Lumias with an 808-style camera bulge on the back?!

By the way, the 808 has a Xenon flash BUT... it also has an LED for video.

You could use that as a flashlight.

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ryder78
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Re: It certainly is!!!
In reply to nellydesign, Mar 1, 2012

I concur with few comments on the Symbian Belle. The Belle is a huge improvement over the Anna, much faster and responsive. I heard Carla will be replacing the Belle soon, and frankly I can live with the Belle as it is. I was cursing all the time with the slow and unresponsive Symbian Anna. The Belle is a huge leap forward, even if it's a Symbian device.

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Jon Rty
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Re: WTF is SoC
In reply to CAcreeks, Mar 1, 2012

SoC really isn't a unknown acronym, and as you proved, a little bit of googling explained it very nicely.

The relevance here is that WP7 is limited to Qualcomm SoCs at the moment, meaning Adreno GPUs (graphic processing unit), and they're not capable of handling the resolution of the 41mp sensor. Symbian on the other hand support the very powerful Broadcom GPUs. What's more, no other mobile OS outside of Symbian has sufficient APIs (Application programming interface) to support such a sensor. Not that that would matter, because the chance of Nokia using anything but Symbian or WP7 is nill, but anyhow.

And there's no need to be rude. What he said did make sense, you just didn't understand it. So please say that the next time instead.

As for Symbian, it's a OS as capable as any other, with over 1 00 000 apps, a guaranteed future of apps due to Nokia adopting the same App framework across all their devices, and a flashlight, so it should fit your needs.

CAcreeks wrote:

Just because you use an acronym (SoC) that nobody knows, and can't be searched-for on Google, we should think you know what you're talking about?

Is this System on Chip? If so, I don't see its relevance.

You made the same post in another thread, and it made no sense there either.

Personally I don't care about the phone OS, I just want a good camera, and a flashlight on my cellphone.

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CAcreeks
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Re: WTF is SoC
In reply to brianlj, Mar 1, 2012

brianlj wrote:

Nokia & Microsoft made a decision on what hardware they would use in the new range of Windows Phones. That hardware (& firmware) isn't up to handling the vast amounts of data that the 808 hardware deals with.

41 megapixels isn't that much data. Even with 16 bits per color (unlikely) it is less than 2^31 (2GB). You don't need a 64-bit operating system to handle it. So this explanation seems bogus. Nokia just didn't want to wait for Windows, and I feel they made the correct business decision.

One guy (the only guy!) I know who has Windows phone likes it, but it isn't selling in any great quantities, yet.

By the way, the 808 has a Xenon flash BUT... it also has an LED for video. You could use that as a flashlight.

Yes! The recently announced Polaroid camera-phone did not have an LED, only Xenon(?) flash.

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CAcreeks
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Re: WTF is SoC
In reply to Jon Rty, Mar 1, 2012

Jon Rty wrote:

The relevance here is that WP7 is limited to Qualcomm SoCs at the moment, meaning Adreno GPUs (graphic processing unit), and they're not capable of handling the resolution of the 41mp sensor. Symbian on the other hand support the very powerful Broadcom GPUs. What's more, no other mobile OS outside of Symbian has sufficient APIs (Application programming interface) to support such a sensor.

Thank you for the explanation. So the limitation is SoC support for the Broadcom GPU and related APIs.

And there's no need to be rude.

Sorry - I am not a phone person. Every field has its own bizarre set of acronyms, and it seems like telecom is worse than most.

As for Symbian, it's a OS as capable as any other, with over 1 00 000 apps...

Good. At this point I don't care about apps, but a good PDF reader will probably come in handy.

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Jon Rty
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Re: WTF is SoC
In reply to CAcreeks, Mar 1, 2012

You're welcome. Unless I'm mistaken, the 808 will ship with a PDF reader, and if that's not the case, there are free ones available on the market.

CAcreeks wrote:

Thank you for the explanation. So the limitation is SoC support for the Broadcom GPU and related APIs.

Sorry - I am not a phone person. Every field has its own bizarre set of acronyms, and it seems like telecom is worse than most.

Good. At this point I don't care about apps, but a good PDF reader will probably come in handy.

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