Fujifilm: Drop the EXR sensor

Started Feb 22, 2012 | Discussions
Photohobbyfun
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Fujifilm: Drop the EXR sensor
Feb 22, 2012

So much of the angst felt for the X10 is because of its "EXR" sensor. I know Fujifilm wants to market this as a unique feature but the truth is that the dynamic range of sensors of this type are already good enough.

The Pentax Q with its tiny compact size sensor has a DR of 11.1ev vs. FujiFilms 11.3ev.

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/%28appareil1%29/769 |0/%28brand%29/Canon/%28appareil2%29/740|0/%28brand2%29/Fujifilm/%28appareil3%29/722|0/%28brand3%29/Pentax

Maybe the EXR sensor was really needed a few years ago but it appears that it has not become a burden.

I hope that for the next X10 and XS-1, that Fujifilm uses a normal sensor with their new pattern array that gets rid of the AA filter.

Fujifilm X10
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Timur Born
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Re: Fujifilm: Drop the EXR sensor
In reply to Photohobbyfun, Feb 22, 2012

After gathering some experience with the pros and cons of EXR I tend to agree. The cons seem to outweigh the pros more and more.

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xoio
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Re: Fujifilm: Drop the EXR sensor
In reply to Timur Born, Feb 22, 2012

Personally i think they should have continued to evolve their Super CCD technology.
The S100FS produces stunning results. It has the HR version (High Resolution).

The S5 Pro had the SR version, which gave SLR CMOS class low noise at higher ISOs.
4 years on, the sensors would probably have produced even more stunning results.

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buckshot
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yes! like a sweet 4/3 or even bigger
In reply to Photohobbyfun, Feb 22, 2012

Photohobbyfun

I hope that for the next X10 and XS-1, that Fujifilm uses a normal sensor with their > new pattern array that gets rid of the AA filter.

... then there is no need for over engineering

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Sunshine_boy
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Re: Fujifilm: Drop the EXR sensor
In reply to Timur Born, Feb 22, 2012

Timur Born wrote:

After gathering some experience with the pros and cons of EXR I tend to agree. The cons seem to outweigh the pros more and more.

I have been saying that for the last 4 years!...

The success of the SCCD went straight to their heads to the point of self destruction. By all means try to improve DR but do not serve it in half-portions and force it down the customers' throats.
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aeneon
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Re: Fujifilm: Drop the EXR sensor
In reply to xoio, Feb 22, 2012

xoio wrote:

Personally i think they should have continued to evolve their Super CCD technology.
The S100FS produces stunning results. It has the HR version (High Resolution).

The S5 Pro had the SR version, which gave SLR CMOS class low noise at higher ISOs.
4 years on, the sensors would probably have produced even more stunning results.

Yes the Super CCD still puts a smile on my face, what a wondeful time i had with my SCCD cameras , still do actually

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Photohobbyfun
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Super CCD and Live View?
In reply to xoio, Feb 23, 2012

xoio wrote:

Personally i think they should have continued to evolve their Super CCD technology.
The S100FS produces stunning results. It has the HR version (High Resolution).

The S5 Pro had the SR version, which gave SLR CMOS class low noise at higher ISOs.
4 years on, the sensors would probably have produced even more stunning results.

Were there any limitations to live view and super ccd? I thought I remember reading somewhere that CMOS has become more popular because it works better for live view. I believe the refresh rate for CMOS is much better and allows for better CDAF as well.

I'm not too sure on those details though.

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Barry Fitzgerald
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Re: Fujifilm: Drop the EXR sensor
In reply to Photohobbyfun, Feb 23, 2012

I'd tread with some caution on DxO's numbers useful for a reference point but I would not hammer the results in stone either.

As for EXR well the F70 has no orbs so why the new ones do that's an interesting question.

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alexisgreat
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Re: Fujifilm: Drop the EXR sensor
In reply to Barry Fitzgerald, Feb 23, 2012

Maybe because the sensor is too large for EXR or has too few pixels. One is left wondering if a 16 MP 2/3" sensor would not have this problem.
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Larry Winters
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I'll second that
In reply to Photohobbyfun, Feb 23, 2012

Hi PHF:

I prefer resolution over extended DR so the EXR sensor is not my cup of tea. But, if one wants a manual mega zoom, FF is all there currently is.

lw

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Wellington100
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Disagree unless the new sensor is over 13ev
In reply to Photohobbyfun, Feb 23, 2012

Photohobbyfun wrote:

So much of the angst felt for the X10 is because of its "EXR" sensor. I know Fujifilm wants to market this as a unique feature but the truth is that the dynamic range of sensors of this type are already good enough.

The Pentax Q with its tiny compact size sensor has a DR of 11.1ev vs. FujiFilms 11.3ev.

You have not added 2ev for DR mode.

11ev is simply not enough DR, I have a couple of 11ev cameras and they are no match (in terms of exposure flexibility) for the 13.5ev that my Fuji S5 achieves

I consider 13ev to be the gold standard and the X10 gets there easily in DR mode.

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/%28appareil1%29/769 |0/%28brand%29/Canon/%28appareil2%29/740|0/%28brand2%29/Fujifilm/%28appareil3%29/722|0/%28brand3%29/Pentax

Maybe the EXR sensor was really needed a few years ago but it appears that it has not become a burden.

I hope that for the next X10 and XS-1, that Fujifilm uses a normal sensor with their new pattern array that gets rid of the AA filter.

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alexisgreat
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Re: Disagree unless the new sensor is over 13ev
In reply to Wellington100, Feb 23, 2012

Wellington, how many EV of DR can our modern monitors display and can inkjets print out?

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Wellington100
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Re: Disagree unless the new sensor is over 13ev
In reply to alexisgreat, Feb 23, 2012

alexisgreat wrote:

Wellington, how many EV of DR can our modern monitors display and can inkjets print out?

As many as the camera can produce.

DR is nothing at all to go with printing or viewing on screen, its a property of the sensor.

Screens have only 1 level of brightness at any one time and printers have none, your prints only look as good as your ambient light. The screen and printer simply display the light and dark areas of an image from white through to black and everything in between.

A blown highlight is always white on screen and a totally unexposed area is always black. However much DR the sensor can sense will be displayed on the screen somewhere between white and black.

Screens and DR are 2 unrelated issues.

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xeriwthe
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Re: Disagree unless the new sensor is over 13ev
In reply to Wellington100, Feb 23, 2012

Hi Wellington,

Is there some source of information, or do you have tests, which can confirm an effective 13EV dynamic range when running x10 in ISO100 DR400 mode? or is this just based on the 11EV from test + 2EV in theory?

I'm just curious what the actual difference comes down to, in real life, how much better is it than say the canon s100?

i have the x10, love the camera, but I do wonder how much better the DR is, when using the DR modes. is the image quality and DR really up to snuff to justify the feature?

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GaryJP
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Re: Disagree unless the new sensor is over 13ev
In reply to Wellington100, Feb 23, 2012

Wellington100 wrote:

Photohobbyfun wrote:

So much of the angst felt for the X10 is because of its "EXR" sensor. I know Fujifilm wants to market this as a unique feature but the truth is that the dynamic range of sensors of this type are already good enough.

The Pentax Q with its tiny compact size sensor has a DR of 11.1ev vs. FujiFilms 11.3ev.

You have not added 2ev for DR mode.

Canon cameras also have a DR400 setting for JPEG.

With both my Canon and my Fuji, I am not sue how much difference it makes realistically to most images.

That's why I'd rather control it myself in RAW.

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alexisgreat
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Re: Disagree unless the new sensor is over 13ev
In reply to Wellington100, Feb 23, 2012

What about when LCD screen stats mention, let's say, that contrast is 1000:1... doesn't that correspond to 2^10 or 10 bits of DR? I havent seen similar figures published for printing though.
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alexisgreat
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Re: Disagree unless the new sensor is over 13ev
In reply to alexisgreat, Feb 23, 2012
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glutamodo
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Re: Super CCD and Live View?
In reply to Photohobbyfun, Feb 23, 2012

Photohobbyfun wrote:

xoio wrote:

Personally i think they should have continued to evolve their Super CCD technology.
The S100FS produces stunning results. It has the HR version (High Resolution).

The S5 Pro had the SR version, which gave SLR CMOS class low noise at higher ISOs.
4 years on, the sensors would probably have produced even more stunning results.

Were there any limitations to live view and super ccd? I thought I remember reading somewhere that CMOS has become more popular because it works better for live view. I believe the refresh rate for CMOS is much better and allows for better CDAF as well.

In general, how much of a huge difference between the EXR and the Super CCD sensors is there? They both are non-Bayer hexagonal arrays, aren't they? The EXRs have the color sites arranged differently so they can pixel-bin, but couldn't they just specify a backlit CMOS sensor in their old hexagonal array. I've wondered more than once what kind of sensors Fuji might have today had they never gone the EXR route and just migrated their S-CCD over to backlit CMOS.

No one ever mentions "interpolation" any more, but really, given the S-CCD and EXR atypical-arrangement arrays, aren't all such Fuji cameras having to do that? Wasn't that part of the reason for slower refresh rates on older S-CCD cameras, the bit of extra "crunch" needed to render images to a normal screen? I'm mostly asking, not saying that I know, I've always just assumed that was part of it.

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Rachotilko
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Curious
In reply to Photohobbyfun, Feb 23, 2012

I am curious: what are the drawbacks of EXR technology ?

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Wellington100
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Re: Disagree unless the new sensor is over 13ev
In reply to xeriwthe, Feb 23, 2012

xeriwthe wrote:

Hi Wellington,

Is there some source of information, or do you have tests, which can confirm an effective 13EV dynamic range when running x10 in ISO100 DR400 mode? or is this just based on the 11EV from test + 2EV in theory?

DXOmark rated the X10 in full res mode at 11.3ev and we know from other tests that have been done that DR mode confers around a 2ev advantage over full res mode, hence 13+ev

This high ev is one of the reasons people are so impressed by the X10 and are comparing it to their DSLR's, it is performing like a DSLR in terms of DR and that is a big part of the reason why the images are so rich compared to compact and Oly and most M4/3 images.

I'm just curious what the actual difference comes down to, in real life, how much better is it than say the canon s100?

In terms of DR its much better, the Canon has an ev of 11.6. I think that in real life, DR is a far more obvious issue than resolution. In the real world 6mp is plenty for computer screens and prints up to and even beyond A4.

However a lousy DR is issue at any and all resolutions. I would categorise anything in the 10's as lousy and the 11's as not enough. Bear in mind that that DR is a headline figure that degrades rapidly as ISO is increased so IMHO you can't have enough DR.

i have the x10, love the camera, but I do wonder how much better the DR is, when using the DR modes. is the image quality and DR really up to snuff to justify the feature?

Its plenty better and I think it definitely justifies the feature in the real world where you don't actually use the full 6mp 99% of the time but being able to push and pull your image and adjust highlights and shadows with impunity, is a very big deal.

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