CSC (Compact System Camera) in retreat

Started Feb 21, 2012 | Discussions
HappyVan
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CSC (Compact System Camera) in retreat
Feb 21, 2012

In the 4Q 2011, CSC sold half of ILC sales in japan. However, the strong showing was caused by the Thai flooding which disrupted Xmas and New Year sales of Nikon DSLR.

The latest numbers from BCN Japan show a resurgence of DSLR as production returns to normal.

http://www.dslrphoto.com/dslr/space.php?do=jranking&view=all

In the top ten, only the new GX1 is a CSC. Does not bode well for CSC in its strongest market. There were 5 Canon DSLR versus 4 Nikon DSLR.

IN the next 10 position, CSC has 8 of 10. Nikon N1 has 3 positions. Pany 2, Oly/Fuji/Sony 1 each.

Why is CSC failing to overcome DSLR?

I have said for over a year that CSC are not substitutes for mature systems like Canikon. Their choice of lenses and accessories is so much better than any CSC. M43 has the most lenses but the quality lenses come at premium prices.

On the N1 forum, we are realizing that a V1 is not equivalent to a D7000 or D90. IMO, CSC is best used as a walkaround camera (with just two/three lenses) or second system (sharing lenses with primary DSLR system).

In general, CSC are still inferior to consumer DSLR in IQ, AF and useability. And, Nikon may replace all of its consumer cameras this year. So, the competition from Canikon DSLR is intense.

As you would expect, since Canikon isn't going to roll over and play dead.

What does CSC need to get on equal footing with DSLR?

IMO, CSC won't get a comparable lens system to DSLR. Sigma is saying that sub-APSC systems aren't worth the investment.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=40612191

IMO, CSC need to get much cheaper and better features. The fabulous Pany GX1 is priced much higher than the G3 (with EVF). The retro Oly OMD is priced at $999.

Even the N1 (best CSC AF) looks overpriced (compared to DSLR) when you consider the AF limitations and medium IQ. The future will belong to those with the best engineers and economies of scale.

Let's hear from you??

Nikon 1 V1 Nikon D7000 Nikon D90 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX1
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Acrill
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Re: CSC (Compact System Camera) in retreat
In reply to HappyVan, Feb 22, 2012

You are right, CSC cameras are expensive compared to DSLRs.

They will probably gain ground as the market matures and prices drop. At the moment they are very much a luxury product.

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Lee Jay
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They're tweeners
In reply to HappyVan, Feb 22, 2012

HappyVan wrote:

Let's hear from you??

They aren't small enough or cheap enough to compete with compacts, and they aren't powerful enough to compete with DSLRs. They either have lousy viewfinders or no viewfinders, only one of them can do tracking AF (Nikon 1), they all blackout during continuous shooting, they have lousy systems and none of them are pocketable.

All of this adds up to a very, very restricted market. Think about it - if these things were the best thing going, they should be drastically out-selling DSLRs since a great many people that want DSLRs already own them, while few that own these things already do. I'm a thrilled DSLR user, and haven't bought one in 6 years. These CSCs should be destroying DSLRs in sales if they're so great. But they aren't so great, and the sales show it.

They need to either be small enough to be pocketable, or big enough to be powerful. The middle is no man's land.

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Lee Jay
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Acrill
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Re: They're tweeners
In reply to Lee Jay, Feb 22, 2012

They need to either be small enough to be pocketable, or big enough to be powerful. The middle is no man's land.

Maybe, but I do feel like there is a happy middle ground, it just hasn't been reached yet.

It lies in the further evolution of the electronic viewfinder. When EVFs are good enough for most purposes other than professional use, and cost less, then they will become weapon of choice for most enthusiasts.

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Barry Fitzgerald
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Re: They're tweeners
In reply to Acrill, Feb 22, 2012

Acrill wrote:

They need to either be small enough to be pocketable, or big enough to be powerful. The middle is no man's land.

Maybe, but I do feel like there is a happy middle ground, it just hasn't been reached yet.

It lies in the further evolution of the electronic viewfinder. When EVFs are good enough for most purposes other than professional use, and cost less, then they will become weapon of choice for most enthusiasts.

Most of the ILC's don't even have a viewfinder so I doubt they'll hit the spot some suggest they will.

There is a market for them no question about it. But it's not the DSLR slayer some predict.

None of the larger sensor models are that small once you put a non pancake on them.

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LJSmak
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Re: They're tweeners
In reply to Acrill, Feb 22, 2012

Acrill wrote:

It lies in the further evolution of the electronic viewfinder. When EVFs are good enough for most purposes other than professional use

Actually, as a professional, I use the rear display ALL the time, with live-view or without (chimping) it only makes sense to look at the digital image, when that is what I am working on. An OVF has big limitations when pre-visualising the image and trying to create what is in your head.

Also, using live view using the rear display is MUCH more comfortable (2-eye viewing, zooming in for critical focus, etc) when shooting all day long, for example in the studio.

The funny thing is the biggest OVF-fans probably also chimp like crazy, to see if what they have just captured is exposed right, the bokeh looks nice, the WB is correct, and so on, because an OVF does not show what you are doing.

But I agree EVF's should become better, and it is inevitable that they will.


Lourens

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LJSmak
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Re: They're tweeners
In reply to Barry Fitzgerald, Feb 22, 2012

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:

None of the larger sensor models are that small once you put a non pancake on them.

this might shock you though:
http://camerasize.com/compare/#181,289
(make sure you see the side- and top-views too)


Lourens

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Barry Fitzgerald
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Re: They're tweeners
In reply to LJSmak, Feb 22, 2012

LJSmak wrote:

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:

None of the larger sensor models are that small once you put a non pancake on them.

this might shock you though:
http://camerasize.com/compare/#181,289
(make sure you see the side- and top-views too)


Lourens

This might shock you too

http://camerasize.com/compare/#3,289

http://camerasize.com/compare/#187,289

Not all DSLR's are massive

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Graystar
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Re: CSC (Compact System Camera) in retreat
In reply to HappyVan, Feb 22, 2012

HappyVan wrote:

Why is CSC failing to overcome DSLR?

Because people want compact cameras with large sensors...not bigger-than-compacts with large sensors.

As more get out there, more people are able to try their friends' CSC and finding that they don't really like the feel...too small to grip well, too heavy to be holding out in front of your face all day long. And they're way way way overpriced. I mean really...remove the mirrorbox and pentaprism, use less materials for the body...and sell for twice as much as an entry-level DSLR???

What does CSC need to get on equal footing with DSLR?

Bigger body, optical viewfinder, PDAF

The NEX-7 may have a winning combination of features for people who are just looking for a nice camera...and not expecting it to fit in a pocket. Time will tell...

.

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CAcreeks
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Just because the Japanese like something...
In reply to HappyVan, Feb 22, 2012

Just because the Japanese like something doesn't mean the rest of the world will like it. For instance, who else loves Hello Kitty? Nobody.

HappyVan wrote:

http://www.dslrphoto.com/dslr/space.php?do=jranking&view=all

In the top ten, only the new GX1 is a CSC.

It's the GX1 with 14-42 X lens, the first zoom lens to make a 4/3 or m4/3 camera semi-pocketable.

The X lens is difficult to use. The zoom lever must be operated with the left hand, because it is out of reach for the right hand when placed on the shutter button.

I really can't believe anybody will truly enjoy using this lens long-term, although tests indicate it is excellent optically.

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Joseph S Wisniewski
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Hello Kitty...
In reply to CAcreeks, Feb 22, 2012

CAcreeks wrote:

Just because the Japanese like something doesn't mean the rest of the world will like it. For instance, who else loves Hello Kitty? Nobody.

You're single, aren't you?

Don't get out much, either, I'd guess...

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tjsnappy
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Re: Hello Kitty...
In reply to Joseph S Wisniewski, Feb 22, 2012

LOL

looks like canon is joining the party, but how long to wait...

http://www.engadget.com/2012/02/21/canon-ILC-mirrorless-camera/

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HappyVan
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What a fair comparison !!!!
In reply to LJSmak, Feb 22, 2012

LJSmak wrote:

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:

None of the larger sensor models are that small once you put a non pancake on them.

this might shock you though:
http://camerasize.com/compare/#181,289
(make sure you see the side- and top-views too)

Compare FF DSLR to small sensor MILC! What next?

Actually, the 36mp D800 is smaller and substantially lighter than 12mp D700. So, I would expect the new Nikon consumer DSLR to shrink also, as well as improve IQ/AF.

The question is this. Is the OMD a cheap and compact alternative to the D400, or an expensive upgrade to the D3100 replacement?

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Lee Jay
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Re: They're tweeners
In reply to LJSmak, Feb 22, 2012

LJSmak wrote:

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:

None of the larger sensor models are that small once you put a non pancake on them.

this might shock you though:
http://camerasize.com/compare/#181,289

This might shock you more.

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Lee Jay
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CAcreeks
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Re: Hello Kitty...
In reply to Joseph S Wisniewski, Feb 22, 2012

Joseph S Wisniewski wrote:

For instance, who else loves Hello Kitty? Nobody.

You're single, aren't you?

If you have a son, I recommend one of these - because pink is a man's colour.

http://www.amazon.com/Hello-Kitty-KT7003-Digital-Camera/dp/B000KKR4NQ/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1329935575&sr=8-3

[Hello Kitty digital camera, 5.1 Mp!]

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Barry Fitzgerald
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Re: They're tweeners
In reply to Lee Jay, Feb 22, 2012

ljfinger wrote:

LJSmak wrote:

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:

None of the larger sensor models are that small once you put a non pancake on them.

this might shock you though:
http://camerasize.com/compare/#181,289

This might shock you more.

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Lee Jay
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Great "a power zoom" lens!

We're going back in a time machine 20 years or more

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novice7
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Re: They're tweeners
In reply to Barry Fitzgerald, Feb 22, 2012

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:

LJSmak wrote:

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:

None of the larger sensor models are that small once you put a non pancake on them.

this might shock you though:
http://camerasize.com/compare/#181,289
(make sure you see the side- and top-views too)


Lourens

This might shock you too

http://camerasize.com/compare/#3,289

http://camerasize.com/compare/#187,289

Not all DSLR's are massive

They are when you look from top down . The height might be close but, looking top down, the DSLR's are much much fatter !

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Alex Sarbu
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Re: They're tweeners
In reply to Barry Fitzgerald, Feb 22, 2012

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:

Great "a power zoom" lens!

We're going back in a time machine 20 years or more

I remember power zoom - it was a failed project of the past. That's the trend these days, replacing things that works with things that doesn't.

Alex S

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Acrill
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Re: They're tweeners
In reply to Alex Sarbu, Feb 22, 2012

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:

Great "a power zoom" lens!

We're going back in a time machine 20 years or more

I remember power zoom - it was a failed project of the past. That's the trend these days, replacing things that works with things that doesn't.

Alex S

Agree on the power zoom lens, what a terrible idea.

That said, the X10 has a wonderful manual zoom lens. Maybe we will get better cameras this time around.

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Acrill
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Re: They're tweeners
In reply to LJSmak, Feb 22, 2012

this might shock you though:
http://camerasize.com/compare/#181,289
(make sure you see the side- and top-views too)


Lourens

This is a better comparison:
http://camerasize.com/compare/#286,289

Bigger sensor - Check
Comparable size - Check
and the killer - A VIEWFINDER

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