Is there ANY chance we could just call a TRUCE?

Started Feb 18, 2012 | Discussions
Ray Sachs
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Is there ANY chance we could just call a TRUCE?
Feb 18, 2012

This forum has basically been ruined for me by all of the white orb talk. How about this for a statement that perhaps we can all agree on:

The X-10 is a capable compact camera but it does produce white orbs/discs/specular highlights. Depending on how you use the camera and under what circumstances, these white orbs can range from being a very big problem, to a not very big problem to an insignificant issue. The public should and now does know about them and are so warned before buying the camera. It will be the wrong choice for many but also a very good choice for many. Everyone should be free to decide whether they find the tradeoffs acceptable.

For me, the orbs have been a nearly insignificant issue but I fully understand how it can be a deal breaker for a lot of photographers, particularly if you're looking at the X10 as an ONLY camera. I wouldn't choose it as an only camera, but I wouldn't choose any compact as my only camera. I wouldn't choose any CAMERA as an only camera for that matter - I like variety too much.

Those of you who've decided the problem is too big for you to want the camera, I have no beef with you. Or disagreement. This is not a religious debate. But can we PLEASE stop turning nearly every thread into "orb central" where that is the only aspect of this camera worth discussing? Many of us enjoy the camera and are happy with the photographs we're getting out of it, despite the potential for orbs. Might we possibly discuss the camera without turning everything into a "Fuji is immoral for releasing a camera with such flaws, they suck, EVERYONE should hate them, etc"?

Please people - I recognize the camera's flaws but I like it anyway. I recognize this forums flaws but they've become so overwhelming I now hate this forum! Which sucks! Can we just agree that the camera is flawed but that the flaws don't affect everyone equally? And perhaps move on....

-Ray
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/collections/72157626204295198/

Fujifilm X10
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GaryJP
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Re: Is there ANY chance we could just call a TRUCE?
In reply to Ray Sachs, Feb 18, 2012

Ray Sachs wrote:

Those of you who've decided the problem is too big for you to want the camera, I have no beef with you. Or disagreement. This is not a religious debate. But can we PLEASE stop turning nearly every thread into "orb central" where that is the only aspect of this camera worth discussing?

First, many threads on this front page are not about orbs. Some are not even about the X10.

Second, look at the threads carefully, even the photo threads, and you see that the orb debate almost always comes into them after someone has made a snide: "look orb fanatics, not orbs here" type post. Don't expect those to go unanswered. This is NOT Flickr

I have deliberately and carefully NOT introduced the issue into any thread unless or until someone else has tried to downplay the issue (and ignoring it is not downplaying)

The problem with your argument is that some people never seem to have a problem when a thread ABOUT orbs gets "hijacked" by hostile comments from apologists for Fuji.

If this forum could put a "sticky" at the top, warning people about the orb issue, so

it was the first thing they saw when looking for advice on buying this camera, it would indeed be a great public service.

Please people - I recognize the camera's flaws but I like it anyway. I recognize this forums flaws but they've become so overwhelming I now hate this forum! Which sucks! Can we just agree that the camera is flawed but that the flaws don't affect everyone equally? And perhaps move on....

Don't shoot the messenger.

When or if we "move on", new potential buyers will get screwed because the information will not be here.

It seems to be the new tactic now the news is getting out.

"Could we stop talking about it please?"

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Aerhan_72
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Re: Is there ANY chance we could just call a TRUCE?
In reply to Ray Sachs, Feb 18, 2012

Fingers crossed
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lol101
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Not a chance...
In reply to Ray Sachs, Feb 18, 2012

Some will not stop until Fuji simply cancel X10's productions, refund everyone and commit massive seppuku.

It's THAT important for them and they will continue until... until what? I don't know... maybe until they get tired or Fuji issues the X20...

See y'all then. Or not.

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FerruginousHawk
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Re: Is there ANY chance we could just call a TRUCE?
In reply to Ray Sachs, Feb 18, 2012

Good idea but obviously won't fly for some.

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Ray Sachs
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Re: Is there ANY chance we could just call a TRUCE?
In reply to GaryJP, Feb 18, 2012

GaryJP wrote:

Second, look at the threads carefully, even the photo threads, and you see that the orb debate almost always comes into them after someone has made a snide: "look orb fanatics, not orbs here" type post. Don't expect those to go unanswered. This is NOT Flickr

I'm not defending those who deny that orbs exist either. A truce implies that BOTH sides take part. Clearly those who deny that orbs happen are denying an obvious reality. But those who seem to talk about only this problem are creating an equally destructive reality.

I have deliberately and carefully NOT introduced the issue into any thread unless or until someone else has tried to downplay the issue (and ignoring it is not downplaying)

The problem with your argument is that some people never seem to have a problem when a thread ABOUT orbs gets "hijacked" by hostile comments from apologists for Fuji.

If this forum could put a "sticky" at the top, warning people about the orb issue, so

it was the first thing they saw when looking for advice on buying this camera, it would indeed be a great public service.

I'd be fine with that. Just put one or two threads and make them sticky so everyone can be warned and THEN perhaps we can move on.

When or if we "move on", new potential buyers will get screwed because the information will not be here.

I don't think so - the reviews are generally getting out there and I haven't seen one that fails to mention it. I suspect most new buyers will read reviews before they read this forum and then just come to this forum to ask a few specific questions that weren't answered in the reviews. I suspect most potential buyers who bother to do research will find out about the orbs quickly enough. As they should. Only those who just go into Best Buy or someplace and don't do any research will not know about the orbs. But these folks will be totally unaffected by the deniers and orb fanatics on this forum too, so it won't make a bit of difference to them.

-Ray
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Faintandfuzzy
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I love the X10
In reply to Ray Sachs, Feb 18, 2012

In most situations, when used correctly, orbs don't appear. I chuckle when I see these street scenes at night at iso 100. It's night folks....we all know iso 800 and up is needed...and at that speed, the orbs pretty much vanish.

If you're finding situations where orbs appear...then don't use the X10 in those situations. I don't complain that my 4x5 camera can't do a football game....and I don't use my Holga when I want detailed 40"x50" prints. Right tool for the job. And for me, the X10 as a general walkaround camera is great.

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wymjym
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Re: I love the X10
In reply to Faintandfuzzy, Feb 18, 2012

Faintandfuzzy wrote:

In most situations, when used correctly, orbs don't appear. I chuckle when I see these street scenes at night at iso 100. It's night folks....we all know iso 800 and up is needed...and at that speed, the orbs pretty much vanish.

If you're finding situations where orbs appear...then don't use the X10 in those situations. I don't complain that my 4x5 camera can't do a football game....and I don't use my Holga when I want detailed 40"x50" prints. Right tool for the job. And for me, the X10 as a general walkaround camera is great.

here we go again!!!!!!!

used correctly??????

only since the orbing X10 does the new norm mean that night shooting should be only high iso

and the fact that you own other pieces of equipment mean only one thing, that you own them.

reality please!!

wj
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snarg
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Re: Is there ANY chance we could just call a TRUCE?
In reply to Ray Sachs, Feb 18, 2012

Ray Sachs wrote:

Please people - I recognize the camera's flaws but I like it anyway. I recognize this forums flaws but they've become so overwhelming I now hate this forum! Which sucks! Can we just agree that the camera is flawed but that the flaws don't affect everyone equally? And perhaps move on....

-Ray
-------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/collections/72157626204295198/

That overrates the importance of the dispute between the satisfied and dissatisfied - although clearly that dispute has kept the subject highest on the FTF agenda.

Central to this is the attempt by the 'dissatisfied' to elicit a 'fair' response from Fuji.

To date, the response has been derisory, which is why so many would prefer to make as big a stink as possible.

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Ray Sachs
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THAT'S not a truce, so I guess your answer is we CAN'T?
In reply to Faintandfuzzy, Feb 18, 2012

There's nothing wrong with folks who like doing cityscapes at low ISO from a tripod - there's nothing INCORRECT about that - a lot of GREAT photographs have been done like this. And this is one place that the X10 is almost certain to produce orbs. You can get them using it correctly or incorrectly, but depending on how you shoot, you may get them a lot or barely ever. Nothing wrong with being clear about this.

-Ray
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/collections/72157626204295198/

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GaryJP
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Because NO compact ...
In reply to Faintandfuzzy, Feb 18, 2012

... should be able to shoot these eh?

http://frankjenks.smugmug.com/...Architectural-nocturnal-etc/17368480_qtGbwP# !i=1320062300&k=cmP867S

And this

http://frankjenks.smugmug.com/...Architectural-nocturnal-etc/17368480_qtGbwP# !i=1320063760&k=gxnwfGS

Good luck doing this on an X10.

Faintandfuzzy wrote:

In most situations, when used correctly, orbs don't appear. I chuckle when I see these street scenes at night at iso 100. It's night folks....we all know iso 800 and up is needed...and at that speed, the orbs pretty much vanish.

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Brue
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Re: I love the X10
In reply to Faintandfuzzy, Feb 18, 2012

You know not of what you speak! I have plenty of night shots with my "old" Panasonic FZ30. I only shoot at iso 80 with that camera, but even if I wanted to I can only go to iso 400 and I'll bet many cameras from way back then had the same limitation.

I guess no one knew what they were just 6 years ago!

Chuckle all you want!

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Ray Sachs
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Exactly
In reply to GaryJP, Feb 18, 2012

Nothing at all "incorrect" about those - incredible examples of what you CAN do with a compact and a tripod. And you couldn't do most of those with an X-10. Undeniably true and folks who like doing that kind of shooting should DEFINITELY steer clear.

-Ray
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wymjym
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Re: THAT'S not a truce, so I guess your answer is we CAN'T?
In reply to Ray Sachs, Feb 18, 2012

Hi Ray

sorry about my previous reply but................I feel as if I use the X10 properly and I still get orbs. I will say that when I put it in auto everything, including auto 1600, I do get less orbs...but then more times than not the image quality--sans orbs-- is several leagues less than expected and not even up to other current p&s cameras rendering capabilities.

I think that a sticky might lessen the ongoing orb obsession but then I still believe (less so) in some amount of humility would also help.

I don't wish Fuji ill but if (and they still have an opportunity) they don't come up with a better solution for the orbing then I think there should be a 'trade in' option when a less orb prone camera comes about.

wj
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Faintandfuzzy
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Re: THAT'S not a truce, so I guess your answer is we CAN'T?
In reply to Ray Sachs, Feb 18, 2012

Ray Sachs wrote:

There's nothing wrong with folks who like doing cityscapes at low ISO from a tripod - there's nothing INCORRECT about that - a lot of GREAT photographs have been done like this. And this is one place that the X10 is almost certain to produce orbs. You can get them using it correctly or incorrectly, but depending on how you shoot, you may get them a lot or barely ever. Nothing wrong with being clear about this.

-Ray
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/collections/72157626204295198/

That's true. If you do...use a different camera. Like I said, I wouldn't take my 4x5 or my Mamiya RB67 to a soccer game on the front lines and expect to keep up with the game. The X10 obviously doesn't work in the situation you describe. That has nothing to do with a truce....and everything to do with common sense.

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aeneon
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Re: I love the X10 .... yawnnnn
In reply to Faintandfuzzy, Feb 18, 2012

Faintandfuzzy wrote:

In most situations, when used correctly, orbs don't appear. I chuckle when I see these street scenes at night at iso 100. It's night folks....we all know iso 800 and up is needed...and at that speed, the orbs pretty much vanish.

If you're finding situations where orbs appear...then don't use the X10 in those situations. I don't complain that my 4x5 camera can't do a football game....and I don't use my Holga when I want detailed 40"x50" prints. Right tool for the job. And for me, the X10 as a general walkaround camera is great.

I dont know why you posted that here , Rays thread wasnt even about this. !!

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Faintandfuzzy
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Re: Because NO compact ...
In reply to GaryJP, Feb 18, 2012

GaryJP wrote:

... should be able to shoot these eh?

http://frankjenks.smugmug.com/...Architectural-nocturnal-etc/17368480_qtGbwP# !i=1320062300&k=cmP867S

And this

http://frankjenks.smugmug.com/...Architectural-nocturnal-etc/17368480_qtGbwP# !i=1320063760&k=gxnwfGS

Good luck doing this on an X10.

Shame he didn't use a 5D2 or 4x5 camera to get a decent quality capture. I presume you'll complain that a Leica M9 can't do the Superbowl as well as a D3s. Why don't you head over to the Leica forum and complain about that. Your incessant whining about the X10 has become tiring. Sell it and get a camera you like....it'll save you from having to post in every X10 thread to complain.

Faintandfuzzy wrote:

In most situations, when used correctly, orbs don't appear. I chuckle when I see these street scenes at night at iso 100. It's night folks....we all know iso 800 and up is needed...and at that speed, the orbs pretty much vanish.

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Faintandfuzzy
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Re: I love the X10
In reply to Brue, Feb 18, 2012

Brue wrote:

You know not of what you speak! I have plenty of night shots with my "old" Panasonic FZ30. I only shoot at iso 80 with that camera, but even if I wanted to I can only go to iso 400 and I'll bet many cameras from way back then had the same limitation.

I guess no one knew what they were just 6 years ago!

Chuckle all you want!

I'm a photographer....and I do know of what I speak. Enjoy your Panasonic.

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Silent Oracle
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Re: I love the X10 .... yawnnnn
In reply to aeneon, Feb 18, 2012

aeneon wrote:

Faintandfuzzy wrote:

In most situations, when used correctly, orbs don't appear. I chuckle when I see these street scenes at night at iso 100. It's night folks....we all know iso 800 and up is needed...and at that speed, the orbs pretty much vanish.

If you're finding situations where orbs appear...then don't use the X10 in those situations. I don't complain that my 4x5 camera can't do a football game....and I don't use my Holga when I want detailed 40"x50" prints. Right tool for the job. And for me, the X10 as a general walkaround camera is great.

I dont know why you posted that here , Rays thread wasnt even about this. !!

Exactly spot on. And this is a great example of why Ray's very noble attempt at a truce will not work. Sad but so.
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GaryJP
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Re: I love the X10
In reply to Faintandfuzzy, Feb 18, 2012

Faintandfuzzy wrote:

Brue wrote:

You know not of what you speak! I have plenty of night shots with my "old" Panasonic FZ30. I only shoot at iso 80 with that camera, but even if I wanted to I can only go to iso 400 and I'll bet many cameras from way back then had the same limitation.

I guess no one knew what they were just 6 years ago!

Chuckle all you want!

I'm a photographer....and I do know of what I speak.

If you say so.

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