New 645 lenses roadmap signals (once again) the death of "FF" dreams

Started Feb 10, 2012 | Discussions
ropen
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New 645 lenses roadmap signals (once again) the death of "FF" dreams
Feb 10, 2012

No intention to start a flame war but it seems that Pentax will accelerate greatly the design and production of new modern/essential zooms for 645D and its successor(s). From one lens in 2012 and another one in 2013 and 2014 they switched to one in 2012 and 3 in 2013 (or later). There is also a big sign that the new zooms will be less expensive and smaller/lighter: contrary to the previous map the focal ranges was reduced making the lenses easier to design and manufacture.

IMO that means that Ricoh will lower the price for the 645 system even further and give it a much greater priority than "FF". Most likely we will see a "budget" 645D pretty soon to fight D800 and whatever new camera Canon has.

The new roadmap is here:

The old one (Hoya plans last year) is here:

Radu

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sfa1966
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Re: New 645 lenses roadmap signals (once again) the death of "FF" dreams
In reply to ropen, Feb 10, 2012

ropen wrote:

No intention to start a flame war but it seems that Pentax will accelerate greatly the design and production of new modern/essential zooms for 645D and its successor(s). From one lens in 2012 and another one in 2013 and 2014 they switched to one in 2012 and 3 in 2013 (or later).

That's not necessarily "accelerate greatly", though. The words "or later" are an advance get-out clause, and could mean nothing at all comes in 2013. So, it might possibly mean that the release is actually slower than one lens released per year, or might mean that it's about the same rate of lens releases as was previously planned.

Still, it's quite interesting to see, all the same.

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pentaxfever
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Re: New 645 lenses roadmap signals (once again) the death of "FF" dreams
In reply to ropen, Feb 10, 2012

I don´t see anything like that happening. Sure, they will release lenses to 645D as was planned. Still, 645D is a niche product. The sensor is so big that it´s hard to see it´s price coming down.

I know a lot of people will be so dissappointed when Pentax finally rolls out the FF body. It will come, you will see!

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ropen
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Re: New 645 lenses roadmap signals (once again) the death of "FF" dreams
In reply to sfa1966, Feb 10, 2012

Hi sfa,

I beg to differ on that one! It's pretty clear that Ricoh went on with the portrait lens already planned and designed in 2011 and scrapped the two complicated, heavy and costly zooms and replaced them with three more nimble, less expensive new ones (which at least as a tentative are meant to be ready in 2013). IMO the "later" part is more of a precaution against disasters like the 2011 earthquake/tsunami than lack of comitement from Ricoh.

Radu

sfa1966 wrote:

ropen wrote:

No intention to start a flame war but it seems that Pentax will accelerate greatly the design and production of new modern/essential zooms for 645D and its successor(s). From one lens in 2012 and another one in 2013 and 2014 they switched to one in 2012 and 3 in 2013 (or later).

That's not necessarily "accelerate greatly", though. The words "or later" are an advance get-out clause, and could mean nothing at all comes in 2013. So, it might possibly mean that the release is actually slower than one lens released per year, or might mean that it's about the same rate of lens releases as was previously planned.

Still, it's quite interesting to see, all the same.

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sfa

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ropen
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Re: New 645 lenses roadmap signals (once again) the death of "FF" dreams
In reply to pentaxfever, Feb 10, 2012

I am sorry that you misunderstood me I truly don't care for a so called "FF" but that doesn't mean that I have something against Pentax doing one for those who want it. I am just happy to see that 645 line got a big boost and that (at least IMO) they aim for an even lower price than it has now. And unlike your faith that they will do "FF" based on a hunch I see a renowned roadmap.

And NO they won't just "release lenses to 645D as planned", they plan to release 4 lenses instead of 2 covering from 28 mm to 200 mm instead of 30 mm to 70 mm. Quite a difference!

Radu

pentaxfever wrote:

I don´t see anything like that happening. Sure, they will release lenses to 645D as was planned. Still, 645D is a niche product. The sensor is so big that it´s hard to see it´s price coming down.

I know a lot of people will be so dissappointed when Pentax finally rolls out the FF body. It will come, you will see!

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loock
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Re: New 645 lenses roadmap signals (once again) the death of "FF" dreams
In reply to ropen, Feb 10, 2012

That roadmap is real like FA 645 120 f 2.8 MACRO.....

Hint - FA 645 120 MACRO is f 4.

DA 50 f 1.8 and DA 560 f 5.6 look pretty FF35 to me.

I'm waiting for both FF 35 36 MP, and FF 645 60 MP.

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moving_comfort
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MFD != FF (or K-mount)
In reply to ropen, Feb 10, 2012

It's very nice to see Ricoh continuing to follow through with 645D and add a few more lenses, but I wonder how much they can 'lower prices' on a body that's already the lowest MFD body in the industry.

MFD is not really meant to compete with FF. There is some overlap in applications, and the new D800 is causing people to 'compare' the MP count and recognize maybe a bit more overlap than before, but these are different types of systems, and MFD will always be quite a bit more niche-like than the lower-end FF bodies like the D800. Beyond pixel-peeping comparisons of output, the body performance, lens selection, and price of these systems are very different.

Personally I think it's very telling that Pentax just came out with a 500mm f/5.6 telephoto for K-mount. That thing is very expensive, large, and represents a commitment from Ricoh that isn't going to be satisfied by K-01 users or entry-level DSLR shooters.

That lens is meant for a the K-5, K-3... or upcoming higher-end K-mount body.

The overall signal here is that Ricoh's not afraid to produce lenses. Very, very good news for anyone buying a Pentax product at any level!

.

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LFLee
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Re: MFD != FF (or K-mount)
In reply to moving_comfort, Feb 10, 2012

The 645 lens series is the best looking lens series in the Pentax line up. Beat DA*, DA WR zoom lenses.

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ropen
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Re: MFD != FF (or K-mount)
In reply to LFLee, Feb 11, 2012

Besides, Pentax seems to do for the 645 line exactly what the proponents of "FF" wanted in K mount: the launch of three modern zooms covering UWA to WA, WA to normal, and normal to short telephoto.

I bet that 2014 will the the year of modern primes for 645!

Radu

LFLee wrote:

The 645 lens series is the best looking lens series in the Pentax line up. Beat DA*, DA WR zoom lenses.

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HozicEmir
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Re: New 645 lenses roadmap signals (once again) the death of "FF" dreams
In reply to ropen, Feb 11, 2012

Two nice standard zoom and faster read/write on card on new body with lower price would be very competitive.
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ennacac
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Re: New 645 lenses roadmap signals (once again) the death of "FF" dreams
In reply to HozicEmir, Feb 11, 2012

Before anyone starts comparing the Pentax 645D and the Nikon D800, it would be nice if they waited until the D800 was actually available for the tests.

If you think the 645D is the Pentax answer to FF, then it makes it the most expensive FF out there even more so than Nikon's vastly overpriced D3x.

Tom

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chiane
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Re: New 645 lenses roadmap signals (once again) the death of "FF" dreams
In reply to pentaxfever, Feb 11, 2012

pentaxfever wrote:

I don´t see anything like that happening. Sure, they will release lenses to 645D as was planned. Still, 645D is a niche product. The sensor is so big that it´s hard to see it´s price coming down.

I know a lot of people will be so dissappointed when Pentax finally rolls out the FF body. It will come, you will see!

Yes, you will see al the old men on this board crying that it doesnt have this or that feature. They dream that a Pentax FF will not only be better than canikons offerings, but cheaper. It will have to be the end all camera! You know what this place is like.

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ropen
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Re: New 645 lenses roadmap signals (once again) the death of "FF" dreams
In reply to ennacac, Feb 11, 2012

Hi Tom,

Hopefully this thread won't get on the "645D vs. D800" slope especially since my intention is mostly to talk about 645 future as a system and the importance that Ricoh seems to put in it. To your question: no, I don't see it as an answer to FF and certainly not as versatile or cost effective for most application.

For me though I would rather have even a 44x33mm sensor for landscapes and portraits and an APS-C camera for telephoto. It is good that alternatives exist and even better that access (financially) comes cheaper every year.

That being said kudos to Nikon for a cheaper successor to the D3X and kudos to Pentax if they will reduce the price of the 645D and its successor(s).

Radu

ennacac wrote:

Before anyone starts comparing the Pentax 645D and the Nikon D800, it would be nice if they waited until the D800 was actually available for the tests.

If you think the 645D is the Pentax answer to FF, then it makes it the most expensive FF out there even more so than Nikon's vastly overpriced D3x.

Tom

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Voff
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Re: New 645 lenses roadmap signals (once again) the death of "FF" dreams
In reply to ropen, Feb 14, 2012

ropen wrote:

I am just happy to see that 645 line got a big boost and that (at least IMO) they aim for an even lower price than it has now.

Where do you see that? It seems to be a 28-45 and a 45 - 90; none will be cheap. From $3000 - $5000 is my guess.

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Voff
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Re: New 645 lenses roadmap signals (once again) the death of "FF" dreams
In reply to ropen, Feb 14, 2012

ropen wrote:

For me though I would rather have even a 44x33mm sensor for landscapes and portraits and an APS-C camera for telephoto. It is good that alternatives exist and even better that access (financially) comes cheaper every year.

So would I, but the problem is that the 645D is beyond most peoples reach (including mine).
I really want an FF 645D

Not at least because adding a wide angle that goes as wide on the 645D as my zoom on the 645NII cost $5000....

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Richard Murdey
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Re: New 645 lenses roadmap signals (once again) the death of "FF" dreams
In reply to ropen, Feb 15, 2012

Thanks Radu, interesting info.

There was a long comment and longer discussion on kakaku.com regarding the K-01 and whether this camera could be construed as Pentax keeping it's FF options open or not.

The discussion centered on a new standard f/2.8 zoom lens, a replacement for the Tokina-based and poorly received 16-50/2.8. Pentax might come out with an updated DA 16-50/2.8 MkII, which basically would end speculation: FF was out of the picture. If, on the other hand, Pentax came along with a DFA 24-85/2.8 ... well, that would be a very good indication that FF was still in the game.

It seems that this is a better bellweather than the 645 lens roadmap. The 645D is selling well in professional markets, I'm sure, and Ricoh-Pentax will want to consolidate that position by having an attractive, modern, and versatile lens portfolio... regardless of any moves in the consumer space to FF.

About the 645D, it's price, and a successor model - first point is these kinds of cameras don't need superficial "upgrading" every year like consumer dSLRs do, swapping out the Kodak CCD sensor for CMOS with ISO 256,000 and 1080p video isn't going to win it over any friends in it's core market. On the hand the 645D was originally marketed at "well heeled" amateurs as well as studios, and the price of entry was always a bit of a turnoff. I don't know how much it actually costs to turn out the 645D, but I can say that if they can do a "Sigma" - turn around and announce that they made some "efficiency savings" and come out with a model at half the cost... well that would have an absolutely massive impact.

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moving_comfort
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Re: New 645 lenses roadmap signals (once again) the death of "FF" dreams
In reply to Richard Murdey, Feb 15, 2012

Richard Murdey wrote:

... I don't know how much it actually costs to turn out the 645D, but I can say that if they can do a "Sigma" - turn around and announce that they made some "efficiency savings" and come out with a model at half the cost...

I don't know how to find any respect left in my heart for Sigma after that bald-faced L... er, I mean brilliant and immediate efficiency-scrounging session they pulled out of their... efficiency experts !

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Alex Sarbu
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Re: New 645 lenses roadmap signals (once again) the death of "FF" dreams
In reply to Richard Murdey, Feb 15, 2012

Richard Murdey wrote:

I don't know how much it actually costs to turn out the 645D, but I can say that if they can do a "Sigma" - turn around and announce that they made some "efficiency savings" and come out with a model at half the cost... well that would have an absolutely massive impact.

Unlike the Sigma, the 645D sells - and very well, for a DMF.

Alex S

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ropen
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Re: New 645 lenses roadmap signals (once again) the death of "FF" dreams
In reply to Voff, Feb 15, 2012

Compared with previous roadmap (made under Hoya) which comprised of much ambitious zooms (30-70 and 65-160) yes I see a desire to make more manageable range, hence less expensive lenses!

Radu

Voff wrote:

ropen wrote:

I am just happy to see that 645 line got a big boost and that (at least IMO) they aim for an even lower price than it has now.

Where do you see that? It seems to be a 28-45 and a 45 - 90; none will be cheap. From $3000 - $5000 is my guess.

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loock
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B.S. FF35 sell 10 to 1000 X better then MF
In reply to ropen, Feb 15, 2012

Nikon just announced a production of 30000 D800 per month, plus 5000 D4 per month, at the Sendai plant in Japan.

35 K per month !!!

If Pentax sells only one FF35, for every 10 FF Nikon, this is a production of 3500 per month.

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